Dartcraft, why even?
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I'm actual on Doc side on this one a little. While I might not be the hard core harder is better sort of player but easy is not automatically better. I know many act like balance is a bad word and sure if your playstyle is "easy as I can get" that is all you. But your statement about player time always being better then automation is not something I really agree with. Player time is valuable but it should not be the gold standard everything balanced around.
As I noted so many posts back this whole debate is steep with personal points of view. Nether side can really argue their point form any real solid ground because it all boils down to personal play styles.
But I have to disagree convenience is not king and player time investment is not superior. If we follow this logic you end up in a place where what would be the perfect mod is something easy to make that gives you everything you could ever need only at the cost of time invested in it. And just like that we are back to EE2 condensers.
At what point does this logic end us in a game that is so easy it is pointless or we end up with a game that is just slightly more work then creative mode play?
To me there has to be some sort of difficulty to the game for it to have any level of challenge or fun. I don't need GT ultra Hardmode but I do need more then what many of the pro EE2/Dartcraft people seem to be suggesting in this thread.
You are wasting less time while wasting time playing video game. I see things that are more tedious as an invitation to make it as easy to possible. Making it easy and cheap removes incentive to improve your systems. I don't really care about early game, because I have one world per major MC update, so I can just spend my time in "mid game" tier, where I enjoy modded minecraft the most. Thanks to that I'm not bored by early game. However unfortunately in my current world I don't really have to worry about resources due to my project "let's find out what each laser drill focus do", which provided me with multiple stacks of diamond blocks, among other minables.
Disclaimer: I do believe that Dartcraft needs tweaking, but everyone complaining seems to forget that the mod (and the pack) are still in Beta and that short of uninstalling the mod or changing the config files, any change will take time to implement. (A lot of the knee-jerk responses I'm seeing seem to be along the lines of "omg Dartcraft is OP, needs to be changed/taken out of the pack RIGHT THIS SECOND" as opposed to "hmm, Dartcraft is OP, in the next update the author should _____.") DoctorOr, I'm responding to you directly, so I want to make myself clear: I actually half-agree with you, but half-disagree as well.
And that's their problem. People don't have to be "The Best" or "The Most Efficient" in something that's there primarily to test its functionality--it's called "self-control" and "responsible playtesting". I'll use Dartcraft to get me up to the point in the game where I can actually afford to make some machines that require a bunch of constant babysitting, and once I'm able to handle some finicky power system's decision to randomly explode (because I have the resources and experience to remedy the situation), I'll move on to the deeper, more complex, and more customizable mods in the pack. (The experience bit is key--if it takes me a month to get all the resources I need to start playing with the tech mods and Thaumcraft [aspects/research], and then something happens each month [server reset, world corruption, Real Life] that forces me to stop playing, I will never get to experience the full experience that is Feed the Beast beyond extremely simple basic-level machines.
I'll give you an example. I am in love with bees. Seriously, they're one of the coolest things in the pack, and they are the reason I'm still playing. Slight problem: I have never gotten into bee breeding, because by the time I've gotten all of my resources together and built enough machines and power generation to be able to fuel both the Forestry machines dealing with bee products AND had enough wood to spare to build the apiaries (or I have enough supplies and storage to have a 'base starter pack' for when I start walking thousands of blocks in search of an apiarist villager who'll trade wood for apiaries as advertised), something happens and I'm unable to continue playing on the world/server (and not to mention, I get pretty burnt out with all the infrastructure I have to build just to get to my beloved bees). With Dartcraft? As soon as I've got Fortune I or II on something so that Redstone supply is no longer holding me back, I'll have everything I need to start experimenting--I'll likely have my first cultivated bees--EVER--by tomorrow. (That said, you'll note I said Fortune I or II--that's the self-control part telling me it won't be as fun if I go for overkill, and I do think the progression of Fortune should be more exponential than it is currently.)
Will Dartcraft become my ONLY way to ever progress to that point? Of course not. Eventually I'll find better ways of getting started from the early game. But it's allowing me to finally access something I really love but could never get into before, and I see that as a positive thing.
That's the thing about "beginner" strategies like Dartcraft--players will play them for a while, when they're not good at the game, and then move to a more nuanced strategy when they're ready. In a lot of ways, Dartcraft is like E. Honda's Hundred-Hand Slap or Chun Lee's kick in Street Fighter, or Ike in Super Smash Bros. Brawl, or the "noob tube" in the Call of Duty games: it has a high ratio of player skill in to power out. It's...aw, heck, I'll just slap an Extra Credits in here and let it make my point for me.
So the question becomes: is Dartcraft a First Order Optimal (FOO) strategy? I think that we'd all say yes. Is it the good sort that will quickly get overshadowed? This is where I, unfortunately, have to say "no". I already have a fair amount of skill built up from playing FtB in the past. I know the sort of depth that's waiting out there for me, so I know that Dartcraft isn't the be-all end-all of the FtB experience. Will a newer player know that?
I don't know.
It's tempting to say "no, the newer players will always use Dartcraft because it's OP". But that's not the real issue. There are better options out there...the problem is that they require far too much skill to execute. The real problem isn't that Dartcraft is too easy or OP (it is a problem, but just a minor, easily tweakable one); the real problem is that the majority of tech mods require a lot more knowledge and skill than the average player will develop by the time they interact with said tech mods. Thermal Expansion is an example of a mod that recognizes this and tries to make things more intuitive, but a.) it's only one mod, and b.) even it requires a certain amount of skill to get into. To expand on the latter point, how would a brand new player even know they should get into Thermal Expansion versus knowing they should get into other mods? Tinker's Construct? "Oh, what an interesting book in my inventory, I should probably check this out." DartCraft? "Ooh, shiny ore/sweet spoils bag/awesome, a dungeon! Hey, what's a 'Force Gem' do? *NEI* Hey, that's not too hard to make, I should do that!" Thermal Expansion? Erm...DW20 spotlight? Maybe?
"But what about the other mods?" you might ask. Fair point. There are lots of other mods that can attract players' attention--Forestry with bees, Applied Energistics with Quartz, Thaumcraft with infused stone (although it's severely lacking in terms of an intuitive way to get the Thaumonomicon--'make a wand and click a bookcase' would only be intuitive if that were stated via achievement the way that Vanilla's "press F to open your inventory" tip does), Buildcraft with oil, IC2 with rubber trees--I could go on, but you get the idea. So why am I not singing the praises of these mods? Simple. With DartCraft and Tinker's Construct, once you see it, it's pretty simple to get started. TiC is a deep system, but it's not enormously difficult to get into it. DartCraft still requires some wiki-diving, but the Force Engine is fairly simple to get just from NEI. With most of the other mods though, it goes somewhat like the following:
"Ooh, what's that funny striped block I just found? A--a beehive? What? There's bees in this game? What can I do with them? Oh, honeycomb? Why would I--OH! These things can make diamond! And redstone! And emerald! These things are awesome! What do I need to--hmm, centrifuge? OK, sturdy casing--oh wait, that's not too bad. What else? Hmm...carpenter? Wait, what is impregnated wood? Squeezer? OK, what do I need to..." *some time later* "OK, I have my machines--wait, I need power for these? What kind?" *a bunch more time looking up Buildcraft stuff* "OK, so finally now that I've got all this junk together can I FINALLY get to--" *combustion engine and/or power conduit blows up while player is looking stuff up in NEI and/or the enormously daunting and complex wikis* "goddammit!"
High skill in for only moderate power out. Some mods are better at this than others, but the bottom line is that until that skill level is dropped a little (particularly with in-game documentation), players are going to devise their FOOs (with or without Dartcraft) and stick to them because everything else is just insane. In that sense, Dartcraft (and on an even larger scale, Tinker's Construct) have really helped us by making it possible for us to point out the problem, so that said problem can be addressed.
...that was FAR longer than I intended. Oh well.
And that's their problem. People don't have to be "The Best" or "The Most Efficient" in something that's there primarily to test its functionality--it's called "self-control" and "responsible playtesting". I'll use Dartcraft to get me up to the point in the game where I can actually afford to make some machines that require a bunch of constant babysitting, and once I'm able to handle some finicky power system's decision to randomly explode (because I have the resources and experience to remedy the situation), I'll move on to the deeper, more complex, and more customizable mods in the pack. (The experience bit is key--if it takes me a month to get all the resources I need to start playing with the tech mods and Thaumcraft [aspects/research], and then something happens each month [server reset, world corruption, Real Life] that forces me to stop playing, I will never get to experience the full experience that is Feed the Beast beyond extremely simple basic-level machines.
I'll give you an example. I am in love with bees. Seriously, they're one of the coolest things in the pack, and they are the reason I'm still playing. Slight problem: I have never gotten into bee breeding, because by the time I've gotten all of my resources together and built enough machines and power generation to be able to fuel both the Forestry machines dealing with bee products AND had enough wood to spare to build the apiaries (or I have enough supplies and storage to have a 'base starter pack' for when I start walking thousands of blocks in search of an apiarist villager who'll trade wood for apiaries as advertised), something happens and I'm unable to continue playing on the world/server (and not to mention, I get pretty burnt out with all the infrastructure I have to build just to get to my beloved bees). With Dartcraft? As soon as I've got Fortune I or II on something so that Redstone supply is no longer holding me back, I'll have everything I need to start experimenting--I'll likely have my first cultivated bees--EVER--by tomorrow. (That said, you'll note I said Fortune I or II--that's the self-control part telling me it won't be as fun if I go for overkill, and I do think the progression of Fortune should be more exponential than it is currently.)
Will Dartcraft become my ONLY way to ever progress to that point? Of course not. Eventually I'll find better ways of getting started from the early game. But it's allowing me to finally access something I really love but could never get into before, and I see that as a positive thing.
That's the thing about "beginner" strategies like Dartcraft--players will play them for a while, when they're not good at the game, and then move to a more nuanced strategy when they're ready. In a lot of ways, Dartcraft is like E. Honda's Hundred-Hand Slap or Chun Lee's kick in Street Fighter, or Ike in Super Smash Bros. Brawl, or the "noob tube" in the Call of Duty games: it has a high ratio of player skill in to power out. It's...aw, heck, I'll just slap an Extra Credits in here and let it make my point for me.
So the question becomes: is Dartcraft a First Order Optimal (FOO) strategy? I think that we'd all say yes. Is it the good sort that will quickly get overshadowed? This is where I, unfortunately, have to say "no". I already have a fair amount of skill built up from playing FtB in the past. I know the sort of depth that's waiting out there for me, so I know that Dartcraft isn't the be-all end-all of the FtB experience. Will a newer player know that?
I don't know.
It's tempting to say "no, the newer players will always use Dartcraft because it's OP". But that's not the real issue. There are better options out there...the problem is that they require far too much skill to execute. The real problem isn't that Dartcraft is too easy or OP (it is a problem, but just a minor, easily tweakable one); the real problem is that the majority of tech mods require a lot more knowledge and skill than the average player will develop by the time they interact with said tech mods. Thermal Expansion is an example of a mod that recognizes this and tries to make things more intuitive, but a.) it's only one mod, and b.) even it requires a certain amount of skill to get into. To expand on the latter point, how would a brand new player even know they should get into Thermal Expansion versus knowing they should get into other mods? Tinker's Construct? "Oh, what an interesting book in my inventory, I should probably check this out." DartCraft? "Ooh, shiny ore/sweet spoils bag/awesome, a dungeon! Hey, what's a 'Force Gem' do? *NEI* Hey, that's not too hard to make, I should do that!" Thermal Expansion? Erm...DW20 spotlight? Maybe?
"But what about the other mods?" you might ask. Fair point. There are lots of other mods that can attract players' attention--Forestry with bees, Applied Energistics with Quartz, Thaumcraft with infused stone (although it's severely lacking in terms of an intuitive way to get the Thaumonomicon--'make a wand and click a bookcase' would only be intuitive if that were stated via achievement the way that Vanilla's "press F to open your inventory" tip does), Buildcraft with oil, IC2 with rubber trees--I could go on, but you get the idea. So why am I not singing the praises of these mods? Simple. With DartCraft and Tinker's Construct, once you see it, it's pretty simple to get started. TiC is a deep system, but it's not enormously difficult to get into it. DartCraft still requires some wiki-diving, but the Force Engine is fairly simple to get just from NEI. With most of the other mods though, it goes somewhat like the following:
"Ooh, what's that funny striped block I just found? A--a beehive? What? There's bees in this game? What can I do with them? Oh, honeycomb? Why would I--OH! These things can make diamond! And redstone! And emerald! These things are awesome! What do I need to--hmm, centrifuge? OK, sturdy casing--oh wait, that's not too bad. What else? Hmm...carpenter? Wait, what is impregnated wood? Squeezer? OK, what do I need to..." *some time later* "OK, I have my machines--wait, I need power for these? What kind?" *a bunch more time looking up Buildcraft stuff* "OK, so finally now that I've got all this junk together can I FINALLY get to--" *combustion engine and/or power conduit blows up while player is looking stuff up in NEI and/or the enormously daunting and complex wikis* "goddammit!"
High skill in for only moderate power out. Some mods are better at this than others, but the bottom line is that until that skill level is dropped a little (particularly with in-game documentation), players are going to devise their FOOs (with or without Dartcraft) and stick to them because everything else is just insane. In that sense, Dartcraft (and on an even larger scale, Tinker's Construct) have really helped us by making it possible for us to point out the problem, so that said problem can be addressed.
...that was FAR longer than I intended. Oh well.
I'm going to take a moment to be a bit off-topic, but it's a good off-topic (for most of you reading, at least).
Thanks everybody for keeping the thread generally collegial, polite, and under control while I've been out (I had a rather extended party to attend yesterday. It involved a pool, so my opportunities to sneak in and check in were curtailed). This is how we can have debate threads on contentious issues and not get them instantly locked and told not to make more. Thank you very much.
There's one really notable exception to this elevation of tone you can see reading through the thread. I'm letting it stand right now because I want to have a discussion about it without derailing this thread, a discussion I'll start elsewhere.
Thanks again for showing disagreement generally doesn't require being at each others' throats with sharpened claw and tooth, though. Let's keep it up.
Back on topic. Be nice. =)
Thanks everybody for keeping the thread generally collegial, polite, and under control while I've been out (I had a rather extended party to attend yesterday. It involved a pool, so my opportunities to sneak in and check in were curtailed). This is how we can have debate threads on contentious issues and not get them instantly locked and told not to make more. Thank you very much.
There's one really notable exception to this elevation of tone you can see reading through the thread. I'm letting it stand right now because I want to have a discussion about it without derailing this thread, a discussion I'll start elsewhere.
Thanks again for showing disagreement generally doesn't require being at each others' throats with sharpened claw and tooth, though. Let's keep it up.
Back on topic. Be nice. =)
If you need OP tools to feel useful you have the wrong mindset about manual mining. It isn't about being efficient, it is about having fun while mining, exploring caves and fighting monsters. If you feel you don't enjoy manual mining without the tools you should just stay with automated mining as that is going to be more efficient use of your time. And it's not manual anymore if you add bags that do sorting for you. You could argue Forestry bags do the same thing but they can't empty themselves without you clicking on a chest.
There's no copper in vanilla and you can only double iron and gold from vanilla with the mechanic. And it's not Fortune, Tinker's Construct actually adds Fortuning metals via autosmelting and that's kind of broken. Macerating/pulverizing requires making machinery that is balanced with that mechanic.
But Silk Touching redstone for example is the better way to process it as Fortuning it is actually capped by vanilla. But how can you bring the inventory management argument here when you said it was already taken care of automatically?
Yes, they are meant as starting items. That wasn't the point, though. The point was that manual anything is going to be less effective and you should deal with it. Now, if you were playing SSP it would be whole another story as automated systems wouldn't be running 24/7 but I'm sure most people have server play in mind.
Every power system is exponential if you can use that power to make more power. I won't blame IC2 for the way it works as that works quite well when the mod is alone. Advanced and ultimate solars are addons and you should blame those for making generating power too easy. And MPS is better than the Quantum armor.
From what I have seen the past year is that mods are just one upping each other in everything. There have been some exceptions like Forestry changing the farms "worse" and suddenly people were in uproar as something didn't improve. Now, it is starting to go the other way where people are starting to see that one upping other mods isn't always good. I'm quite happy about that as maybe the mod makers would see the light, too, and concentrate on adding new features instead of making a feature from other mod better.
Poppy and I don't play on a server, or with a modpack, that has solar power other than the single base 1EU/t IC2 panel and the two mekanism ones.
If you want to lay the blame on MPS though, by all means. I won't stop you.
But why should it not be effective? I'm not saying it needs to be as good as or better than automated mining, I'm just saying that *maybe* it should be good enough that people who enjoy mining by hand won't be left out of enjoying all the cool toys because it would take forever to get enough resources to build them. Maybe the power drill goes a little to far with its insane speeds and fortune 1000, but it still won't compare to automation, no matter how good it is. Of course, that's just my personal opinion.
To some extent, I think DoctorOr would agree with this, but dismiss it as immaterial to the actual declaration at hand. It's very hard to argue that DartCraft is not "very very good at what it does" and as such, could be labeled at OP. It very firmly and assertively flattens the early game and if you can solve some few problems, it makes ultimate infinite tools and makes just crazy (I suspect buggy, actually) degrees of some things drop.
The question of individual playstyle is a different thing altogether. I think ultimately what we all want is a modpack where there are great and valid choices and a player is not penalized for choosing any individual path. This makes existing content last longer, after all.
I think DartCraft has a place in the world and that place may be, "Welcome to modded minecraft. Let's take you through a high-level example of the game and next map, you can try to play it more technical." And honestly, if BlueDart does this well it'd be an huge coup because very few mods can directly speak to novices in a way that is familiar and exciting. Dart's resonance with various classic gaming memes makes his stuff much more engaging.
People who play the game as an optimization problem may find DartCraft boring, and people who quit a map once they have a metal stockpile may also find it boring. People who like having a shortcut (regardless of if they have self-control or not) probably will like DartCraft.
I actually think DC could very easily be brought into balance with a few key changes and could even put these changes behind a "EASY/NORMAL" mode switch the way Forestry does with bees (have you ever played on easy? Even a beetard like me can get industrious and imperial in a few hours!). For example, I think Dart's use the wrench to serialize things (besides spawners, which I disagree with a lot) is actually very good and while some people take exception, I think this SHOULD be the way things work moving forward.
I think all of us are just too used to GT's game pace stymieing affects that when we use a mod that has the pace DartCraft has we go OMFG too OP!
While I think DartCraft is a little too rich in convenience. For instance those force mits outclass most mid game tools and they can be found in loot bags and spawn in starter chests. The start game ends up being trivialized by one lucky loot bag (or starter chest but then again trivilaizeing the start game is what those beginner chests do). They also aren't terribly hard to make.
All that being said I still cannot say that it has no place in the Unleashed pack. As as far as I can tell "Convenience is king" is the Unleashed packs unstated mission statement (lol). It seems the unleashed pack is all about too much fun with balance being a secondary thing to be applied in really dire cases where the excess clearly kills the fun (like EE2's earned creative mode).
Then again... I suppose if you are one of those intermediate players that find mods like DartCraft overpowered but think mods like GregTech as fun as whacking while using industrial soap we have no real intermediate path.
Stop bitching about DartCraft, it's an EZ mode mod in an EZ mode pack. It's like bitching that a steak house serves meat...
While I think DartCraft is a little too rich in convenience. For instance those force mits outclass most mid game tools and they can be found in loot bags and spawn in starter chests. The start game ends up being trivialized by one lucky loot bag (or starter chest but then again trivilaizeing the start game is what those beginner chests do). They also aren't terribly hard to make.
All that being said I still cannot say that it has no place in the Unleashed pack. As as far as I can tell "Convenience is king" is the Unleashed packs unstated mission statement (lol). It seems the unleashed pack is all about too much fun with balance being a secondary thing to be applied in really dire cases where the excess clearly kills the fun (like EE2's earned creative mode).
Then again... I suppose if you are one of those intermediate players that find mods like DartCraft overpowered but think mods like GregTech as fun as whacking while using industrial soap we have no real intermediate path.
Stop bitching about DartCraft, it's an EZ mode mod in an EZ mode pack. It's like bitching that a steak house serves meat...
I am not feeling left out even without having DartCraft. Honestly, there's nothing else besides diamonds that I am lacking and I mined seriously for something like two play sessions. And that is without any branch mining, just exploring various caves, and that's why I'm lacking diamonds. When you mine manually you will only mine what you need, not stockpile all the stuff in the world you won't even find use for. I feel like I'm repeating myself here a bit too much but the people who enjoy manual mining enjoyed it even before DartCraft and don't need that mod to continue with manual mining. The AoE drill is more like a portable quarry with Fortune and Silk Touch added than a tool you mine with.
But I think I've said my piece, I'm not even personally playing Unleashed and I don't think I will until it is 1.6 or the server I play on updates from Ultimate.
I guess that's just different play styles then. Personally, I do lots of branch mining early to mid game and stockpile resources for use later and if I run low I mine more or plop a quarry down if I'm feeling lazy. I don't like running low on stuff and if I don't find a use for it, it's more of a better to have it and not need it than not have it and need it sort of thing. Also, I didn't say that you need Dartcraft to do manual mining, if that's what you got from me I didn't mean for it to come out like that. The power drill just makes manual mining a more viable option (for me) because it speeds things up.
Haha, yeah, can't believe I forgot to turn it off for recording, very nearly deleted everything immediately and committed sepuku to restore my honor.
Buuuut, it's very nearly as fast w/o c+ anyway, using it on the test server with just adv. nano atm and it's working great. The battery drain is non-too-high and I already dug out what's starting to look more and more like Moria under my base (Hi RB!).
I just died laughing.
I got this great picture of deadpool taking a sword and slicing his stomach open feigning death then standing up saying "Well that didn't work", and walking away with his intestines dragging between his legs.
But uh yeah. No speed vs speed 5 seems to be about a 300~400% increase in power usage from playing with it on the server I'm on. 65k EU drains in about 50 blocks length wise of AoE mode.
You've already done Moria! Do something else this time
Sent from boobs (because why not?)
Killing a wither with your fist with ease and then getting 60 Nether stars out of said wither...0_0
Well, I'm using speed 3, 5 is a bit too much unless you have a separate drill for AoE only. (Which I wouldn't bother with)
Myeaa, that was one gorgeous cavern, too bad the mining laser doesn't work that well on UB stone any more.You've already done Moria! Do something else this time
It is defenitly fortune. Fortune gives a chance for extra drops that avarages out at about 2.2 times the standard loot. A pulverizer is 2.0 wich is realy rather close. So no its not fortune as in it gives a chance, but yes it is equally unbalanced in that it gives roughly the same multiplier to metals that shoudnt be getting it. No matter what requiresments it has, be it an enchanting table with a high amount of XP or some metals throw together running on coal (and infact dubling XP output from ores aswell because of dubble the amount of bars gained). Infact its so broken that every mod that wants to do ore processing needs to add the multiplier or otherwise it cant compete. So i agree that fortune 4/5 will just leads to every other mod needing to add it aswell. But it is in no way different from a macerator/pulverizer!
You cant compare starting items with higher tier items. Something you are doing and basing a standard around? You say that manual time investment is worse because a starting item cannot compete with a higher tier item. Ofcourse that will give a bad comparison...
As such, I will embrace anny higher tier manual tools that let me compete with these high tier automated machines. I prefer my time investment being worth something. Wich makes me wonder, why are you so hostile towards manual time investment being a viable alternative to automation? And we are only talking about a single automation machine, once you start multiplieing these tools can once again not compete.
But what is actually cheaper to make and maintain? The cost of a quarry and a tree farm realy isnt all that much, it doesnt break, doesnt need maintenance outside of moving it and is self sustaining. The cost of getting a high tier tome, full armor, a drill and a tree farm to support it with power is going to be much higher...
So I am not sure what you are trying to say here?
I will say though, that the force ore could be made more rare. That would greatly diminish dartcrafts power on the early game making it feel less forced and more like a choice.
But people don't understand that this can go both ways and not only where harder=balanced.