Dartcraft, why even?

[Flipz]

Well, to slightly reword something I said in my most recent recording (not published yet--curse you, editing computer, for not working when I need you!), in my view DartCraft does for early tech modded Minecraft what Tinker's Construct does for early-game Vanilla: it gives a novel, enjoyable way to get into the later stages of the game without a lot of grind and complexity. Some people like grind and lots of complexity; I'm on decent terms with the latter (so long as it's not overdone), but can't stand the former. Thus, for me Dartcraft is a net gain, even though I do think it is in need of more balancing--do note that it's VERY new compared to most of the mods in the pack, so it's natural that it still has a lot of issues to iron out.

In a similar vein, Unleashed as it stands is still in beta--I doubt the settings we have will be the same once the pack gets pushed to a non-private status. I remember it being the same with the beta pack and the very first versions of Mindcrack and DW20--there were a TON more resources in the first couple of versions, and lots of unbalanced features, but by the time Ultimate came out everything was (for the most part) ironed out. I have a feeling the same thing is happening here, especially given the bigger size of most of the ore veins compared to 1.4.7--the emphasis seems to be on encouraging people to get to the high-end builds quickly so that the technical/coding side of the cross-mod functionality can be ironed out, and then when the pack gets pushed to a wider official release everything will be tuned for balance.

 

[Revemohl]

Interesting is a point of view. But it doesn't really matter in this context - I might think that Dartcraft is the perfect mod in every way and that post still wouldn't be less relevant. Yes, giving input/criticizing (what you call "complaining) might change or add options in the mod, and if there's only a few people who think the mod is more "interesting" now than with different balance then that is at a whole a gain to the mod. The way I think it should be done is as I wrote above:

"I think the best solution would have been if the dev of DartCraft made two settings, an "easy mode" and a "normal mode", and the "normal mode" (which is balanced relative to other mods [for example, enchantment mods capped at the same as vanilla and force gems giving maybe 25% liquid force of what they do now]) is the standard delivered with FTB, so those that want it in easy mode can simply go in an change. That way, just downloading and playing FTB will give you the more coherent, linear experience, but when you've grown tired of hacking cobble for the three first hours in each of your 20 worlds you can simply turn on easy mode and have a much quicker start."

I still believe that nobody knows more about the balance of a mod than their creator. All these "OP" things about Dartcraft are contained in itself and have little to no relation to any other mod, or the fact that it's present in such a huge pack. Take the enchantment system you mentioned, for example -- the way present in DC is most likely there because the vanilla system is horrible, and Bluedart wanted to give it a different approach. Also, they obviously only affect DC's tools, which need to be replaced constantly until you get to level 6 on the tome, or might end up consuming so much EU they will require a huge infrastructure before being any usable. The only thing that maybe could change is the controversial Fortune IV, which could be a bit harder to get (and only that fourth level) if it's that gamebreaking. Simply the fact that it doesn't exist in vanilla isn't, in my opinion, as it gives you a reason to use that tool and go back to manual mining instead of using quarries for everything.

Yes, but config tweakes are advanced features and not every user will make them. I'm all in favor of config tweaks - in fact I've started a thread about balance/tech progression where I argue that config tweaks and/or mods that are basically just major reconfigs/rebalances is the way to go with the modpack. However, for the modpack to be really good and/or popular, which I assume the devs want, they have to have a clear design goal of what is the _default_ balance level of the modpack. What should the first impression to new players be? Advanced players are much more likely to be able to change configs or register on these forums and ask for help.

That's why people who create mod packs should be the ones who fiddle with them, in order to balance their mods with each other. As for the default difficulty level, I stand by my opinion written above. Dartcraft is almost perfectly fine as I see it at the moment, the only thing missing are more lines in the config to turn more things off. The default config does its job of showing everything the mod has to offer amazingly well, and I believe that's what mods should go for -- instead of having things that can only be found on an easier mode, as if the game itself is ridiculing you for that. The Magical (Scientific?) Greg and the Infinite Bronze Machine.

So, you think a mod like Dirt to Diamonds would fit well then?

Obviously not. Complementing what I said earlier, FTB is not only about giving you options, but giving you good and well-made options. I don't think it, or any mod pack would be any fun if it just got everything from the mods section on the MCF, made them play well with each other and called it a day. Dirt to Diamonds is quite silly but I have nothing against those who want to use it, and I can see why a big pack wouldn't include it; but I can't really see why that pack shouldn't have a mod that gives you convenient tools but has a few problems here and there, just like nearly every other mod in existence.

I think it needs to be toned down a little bit though, at least early game.

But face it, Minecraft's early game sucks. Anything that can make it less boring should be welcome, even if it let you turn your first stack of dirt into diamonds.

[edit] oh dear, it ended up being a wall of text. A wall of text with quotes. I guess I'll leave my opinion at this, typing and thinking so much is tiring.

 

[casilleroatr]

<Split>.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to be mean in my last post, I was just teasing. Your English is very good btw considering its not your first language. (Don't tell me, is scouse your first language?). What I meant was that Ravermohl had anticipated that you would be saying "you might as well play creative" soon. In your response you wondered if he liked to play a dirt to diamonds mod. Then you edited your post to append the following "No, not really. Comparing to creative is relevant when it comes to EE2 because it quickly gives you infinite access to everything in the game." So I ask, is EE2 like creative mode but dirt to Diamonds is not like creative mode? To reiterate, I only meant it as a little joke.



I get what you are saying about how Dartcraft fits into the pack, and your concerns about the pace of advancement. I accept some of what you are saying but I think the main "rebalancing" that is left for Dartcraft is adding more stuff to the config, particularly a spoils bag toggle. Other than that I don't think there are any problems with the pace of advancement, but ultimately it is up to the individual to decide isn't it.

 

[RandomMoped]

Dartcraft is inverse Gregtech! Muahahahaha!

 

[DoctorOr]

Actually, the creator of EE2, Xenophobe, is the one responsible for Xeno's Reliquary. Pahimar merely maintains EE2, but is the man responsible for EE3.

And both Xeno and Pahimar have publicly stated that EE2 was overpowered and took over any game they were installed at (paraphrasing)

Furthermore, both of them have made specific efforts to balance their next-generation mods, although amusingly one of the worst abuses possible comes from the direct interaction of those two mods with each other.

Honestly, I like DartCraft. Its all in (what I understand to be) its motto: convenience is king. DartCraft is incredibly convenient. On the server I'm playing on now, I have full quantum armour (no MPS or GraviSuite), and still use DartCraft tools. Why?

Because they're cheap and OP.

A power drill with silk touch, fortune IV (for those blocks that don't silktouch, like infused ore and force ore) and speed 5, in area effect mode, will rip through anything fast enough that you'll get network errors on a server. It is notably faster than the equivalent Tinker's Construct area effect tools, even with full speed buffs.

 

[The_Enemys]

I'm just going to drop my opinion here in case anyone wants to read it. My thoughts on balance are that different people seek different balances and game content. Some people want the game to be an adversary to conquer, some people want complex, Rube Goldberg processes to marvel at and some people want really high power stuff that's easy and fun to race around with. There are other groups I likely didn't cover here, but conflict between these groups is responsible for much of the unnecessary flaming. Just because something caters to one or both of the first 2 groups (which don't, admittedly, contain many people, but are still important) doesn't make it bad, it means the gameplay has been balanced to cater to those groups. Similarly, if something caters to the latter group it doesn't make it OP, it makes the gameplay balanced to cater to that group. The real problem is that the more specialised gameplay styles are generally at odds with each other. This is mainly problematic on PvP servers because the player capabilities aren't balanced against each other, and when people not on the target audience see it as pointless to include/don't like the idea of it being available/in the way. Personally, I feel that I'm in the second group and to some extent the first, but I also enjoy the "OP"style so I'm perfectly fine with Dartcraft being around, and given that it's self contained I can only see a problem where the pack is used for PvP servers. The real problem is that we need multiple packs to target each style, because everyone enjoys a different mix of mods. With the appropriate configs it should at least be doable to maintain a large number of packs that each provide a different experience.

Any way you slice it, though, how can you oppose a mod that allowed Slowpoke to announce "I am ze baby Jesus", and use Sonic's theme music for himself in the space of 5 minutes?

Slightly off topic but related to above post and I've been meaning to say it:

Spoiler

GregTech really suffers here, as I alluded to, because he's not changing the base game and other mods "becuz OP", he's changing them because they don't balance with GregTech. You don't get the experience Greg seeks to offer without those changes. The problem here is that some particularly vocal people not in Greg's target audience get angry because GregTech is in a mainstream pack and blame Greg rather than the mod pack authors for placing a very much not mainstream mod in a mainstream pack. Greg's nasty behaviour lately was likely partly a response to this hatred over GregTech when he never actually forced people to use it (people argued that when it was on servers they didn't really have a choice but Greg didn't set those servers up, did he?).

 

[wolfenstein19]

The thing im suggesting is removing Dartcraft from the Modpack. Why? Because its overcentralizing game. If you opt for efficiency there is no way over only-using Dartcraft in the early game and mainly-using Dartcraft in the later game.

If you compare the methods, asides from offering alot of unique convenience functionality, Dartcraft completly overpowers any respective tools. That means if you want to play efficient you are forced into using Dartcraft. Worse even, if you play on a PvP or competitive Server, you put yourself into Massive disadvantage if you don't heavily use DartCraft from the word go.

Its either the Dart way or the Highway on any server that has it installed.

 

[cynric]

If you compare the methods, asides from offering alot of unique convenience functionality, Dartcraft completly overpowers any respective tools. That means if you want to play efficient you are forced into using Dartcraft. Worse even, if you play on a PvP or competitive Server, you put yourself into Massive disadvantage if you don't heavily use DartCraft from the word go.

Its either the Dart way or the Highway on any server that has it installed.

Uh, really? Somehow, I don't see this. If anything, MPS would fit that bill concerning armor/tools in the late game. Tinkers Construct is pretty powerful aswell in the beginning and still very nice late game, compared to other tools. Force engines seem pretty powerful and maybe they need a tweak in the config, but I don't see them replacing those multiple steam boiler setups people like to build. Sure there are a few bugs and maybe a few tweaks needed, but I don't see dartcraft as overshadowing everything else.

 

[Golrith]

Aye. Its heresy, but fuck it, I liked EE2. I enjoyed being able to throw a bit of excess coal in a chest and get a few stacks of materials to do that nifty little thing that encompasses about half of Minecraft's gameplay: building shit. Its one of the reasons I can't wait for DynEMC to come online in EE3. I wanna be able to USE the excess bullshit I have, like zombie flesh, for something productive that doesn't involve either throwing it into a recycler or some circuitous Rube Goldberg device.

Grab yourself the Energy Manipulator mod, brings back the Condensor, is totally configurable to your own personal idea of balance.

 

[wolfenstein19]

Uh, really? Somehow, I don't see this. If anything, MPS would fit that bill concerning armor/tools in the late game. Tinkers Construct is pretty powerful aswell in the beginning and still very nice late game, compared to other tools. Force engines seem pretty powerful and maybe they need a tweak in the config, but I don't see them replacing those multiple steam boiler setups people like to build. Sure there are a few bugs and maybe a few tweaks needed, but I don't see dartcraft as overshadowing everything else.

- Fortune IV and Looting IV is absolutely out of concurrence. That eliminates the possibility of efficiently using any other Tools. (Sharpness X on Sword and the Unique Bleeding effect, too. I once did a 56 damage hit onto a Cow with that sword. And it costs NEXT TO NOTHING)
- Looting IV from Armor affects all the mobs that normal looting doesn't. That eliminates the possibility of efficiently using any other Armor (or at least always carry a Dartcraft Armor set to put it on on these occasions.)
- The Force Wrench dwindles the functionality of Chest Transporters and Portaspawners, without costing Nether stars or imposing nasty side effects.
- Dartcraft Tools have all the abilitys T2 Tinkers Construct Tools to, without actually costing anything but a tiny bit of Iron (refined Iron gives 3 Ingots) and sticks. Force Drills with Speed V and Fortune IV dwindle all other mining tools in Speed, Loot and Efficiency.

- You can get ABSOLUTELY ALL OF THESE EXTREMLY POWERFUL THINGS within 2 hours of Gameplay. That means on any competitive Server you will be set until late - Endgame after that Time period. Anyone who doesnt use this is probably stuck at setting up his first Power systems and if he got Lucky using Diamond Tools.

 

[cynric]

Not counting those obvious bugs (like raining netherstars on a wither kill), this is beta afterall.

Ignoring that you need to get pretty lucky to get everything you need in your first 2 hours (I know I have searched far longer for some cows or cocoa or lots of other stuff depending on the spawn), you now have some starter gear. Now the real game begins, start building you power infrastructure, get some farms going, do all the stuff the other mods provide. You sped up The start of the game, but most of the stuff you just mentioned is obsoleted later on by more powerful options (or requires some of that infrastructure in the first place, like the upgraded drill).

Unless of course getting some powertools and armor is all you want from the modpack, then maybe Dartcraft is overpowered. But why would you even play a tech/magic centered pack with lots of automation options, if all you want are some improved tools.

 

[BananaSplit2]

tss, Dartcraft is just the proof that everyone here just wants an easier and faster game. It is arguably the complete inverse of Greg Tech, as "broken" as GT is, but yet it's defended (with nearly the same arguments than for Greg Tech actually aka "dont like, dont use it" and co) heavily. I don't know if it's just hypocrisy or laziness

 

[Jakeb]

Because they're cheap and OP.

A power drill with silk touch, fortune IV (for those blocks that don't silktouch, like infused ore and force ore) and speed 5, in area effect mode, will rip through anything fast enough that you'll get network errors on a server. It is notably faster than the equivalent Tinker's Construct area effect tools, even with full speed buffs.

You can't compare tinker's construct tools to dartcraft tools, because tinkers construct is made with vanilla in mind and dartcraft is made with modded minecraft in mind. There's a huge difference, really, because the power drill is nothing compared to some of the automated mining available in modded minecraft.

 

[RavynousHunter]

tss, Dartcraft is just the proof that everyone here just wants an easier and faster game.

Is my idea of fun a problem for you? If so...well, sorry, but I'm going to have to say "tough shit."

Grab yourself the Energy Manipulator mod, brings back the Condensor, is totally configurable to your own personal idea of balance.

Ooh, I like this! I'll certainly look into it, thankee!

 

[egor66]

What else are you going to do, then? Keep complaining until the author decides his ideas are wrong, yours are right, and removes everything that makes his mod interesting? Seeing how much cross-mod interaction Dartcraft has, it's clear that it was made with having multiple mods in mind, so there's no way FTB's amount of content has anything to do with how "OP" it is. Some of the most controversial things about that mod can also be tweaked in the config, such as the burn time for liquid force and the damage reduction for the sturdy upgrade in armors (and I'm sure it's just a matter of time until Spoils Bags and any other enchantment can be turned off as well, so that Fortune IV that bothers you so much might cease to exist). Getting 60 Nether Stars from a single Wither is also most likely a bug, in fact there's no way it isn't a bug. The enchantment system the whole mod revolves around, the tools, armor, bags and whatnot are all there in the name of convenience (as mentioned already), and yes they are good because they're meant to be used.

The mod obviously isn't complete yet and thus still has a lot of bugs and things to implement, both in and out of the game, so you'll have to deal with it until new versions come up -- and in the meanwhile, you can choose to not exploit things you find too broken for you. As I see it, FTB (or modded Minecraft in general) has always been about choosing what you want to do with the enormous amount of resources you're given, so that "if you don't like it then don't use it" argument actually fits it pretty well. It's a sandbox game, after all, yes I am going to use this argument again you are the only one who can decide how difficult it should be, unless you're playing on a server I guess but that's why mods have config files.

Spoiler

Your next line will be "might as well play creative"!

Ah a valid rebuttal at last, yep your points are all valid, & I have made most of the same points in other topic, its all down to the player in question & there style of play, for me it not balanced yet & is not a mod I chose to use until it is at least semi balanced for use in a pack, the easy of getting a portal gun is one of the big downers for me, If you enjoy it use it, I have not told any one not to use this mod nor will I ever not that it would matter anyway. balance is a very hard thing to get right one side you have the hard core gregorains on the other the peaceful almost creative players, who is to say what is right or wrong ?, you ?, me ?, mho if its fun for YOU go for it, lets not forget that balance is subjective as well, what I see as a little too tedious or a little too easy, others will have the same or completely conflicting opinions.

For me dartcraft is a fun mod that could be really good in the future, but not one I (my view, so stop implying I am telling players what to do in there game) choose to use atm.

 

[DoctorOr]

You can't compare tinker's construct tools to dartcraft tools, because tinkers construct is made with vanilla in mind and dartcraft is made with modded minecraft in mind.

I agree with that, but I make the comparison because people keep trying to claim that high end TC tools will beat dartcraft ones. It's simply not true, and I presume anybody making that statement doesn't know that dartcraft tools including the power drill all have an area of effect mode and they're trying to compare it to an area of effect TC tool

There's a huge difference, really, because the power drill is nothing compared to some of the automated mining available in modded minecraft.

I can crush a chunk from top to bedrock with a power drill in far less time than a quarry with max power does. And I do it with silk touch. With a magnet and dartcraft packs, I wouldn't even lose a single block.

 

[Jakeb]

I can crush a chunk from top to bedrock with a power drill in far less time than a quarry with max power does. And I do it with silk touch. With a magnet and dartcraft packs, I wouldn't even lose a single block.

Well, I did say some of the automated mining, not all of them. Also, it doesn't really matter how fast or how good manual mining is, it still won't compare to logging in, plopping down a quarry/laser drill/mining well machine/whatever, logging off, logging back in next day to find hundreds-thousands of every mineable resource in your possession.

 

[cynric]

I agree with that, but I make the comparison because people keep trying to claim that high end TC tools will beat dartcraft ones. It's simply not true, and I presume anybody making that statement doesn't know that dartcraft tools including the power drill all have an area of effect mode and they're trying to compare it to an area of effect TC tool

I can crush a chunk from top to bedrock with a power drill in far less time than a quarry with max power does. And I do it with silk touch. With a magnet and dartcraft packs, I wouldn't even lose a single block.

Hmm, how much power does that require, if I may ask? Or rather, how deep do you get if you don't wear any infinite power armor, i.e. only use the power in your tool.

 

[DoctorOr]

Well, I did say some of the automated mining, not all of them.

Your block breaker frame won't come close either.[DOUBLEPOST=1375019532][/DOUBLEPOST]

Hmm, how much power does that require, if I may ask? Or rather, how deep do you get if you don't wear any infinite power armor, i.e. only use the power in your tool.

I wasn't wearing infinite power, but it would have drained the tool if that's all there was. You'll need a batpack. I was wearing an adv nano (with no infinite power generating MPS)

 

[Skyqula]

I can crush a chunk from top to bedrock with a power drill in far less time than a quarry with max power does. And I do it with silk touch. With a magnet and dartcraft packs, I wouldn't even lose a single block.

As it should be. Player time investment should always be superior to automation. The advantage of automation is that it gives you time to do something else and that it can be multiplied beyond reason.