Dartcraft, why even?
- Thread starter wolfenstein19
- Start date
That's why I said "after the first day", and considering those ore detection sticks it can go quicker than that if you're effective. By day three at the very latest someone who plays remotely effective can have basically infinite anything (well they might only make ten stacks of diamond blocks per minute or so, but what's the practical difference really).
Apart from the fact you still have to put in effort to get to the point where you have condensers and what not? The fact that things can still kill you regardless of having EE2, you can't just dive into lava with no armour on, mobs will still try to kill you, creepers will still wreck your house, and of course some people simply find alchemy fun.
If your resource gathering strategy is EE, purely, you'll need a lot of minium shards. Though those aren't hard to get, limiting yourself to what you find in the wild might be a good alternative to balancing the mechanics of EE.
I use it sometimes to get rid of bulk. Though I do store most of my bulk in DSUs, as to reduce the clutter in my AE system, it's always nice to turn 10k clay into 2.5/4 = 0.625*100 = 625 iron.
I realize its unbalanced, but I don't think its that big a deal, as so long as you don't exploit any loops/create farming loops specifically using EE. I use it occasionally. It hasn't ruined my gameplay one bit.
I use it sometimes to get rid of bulk. Though I do store most of my bulk in DSUs, as to reduce the clutter in my AE system, it's always nice to turn 10k clay into 2.5/4 = 0.625*100 = 625 iron.
I realize its unbalanced, but I don't think its that big a deal, as so long as you don't exploit any loops/create farming loops specifically using EE. I use it occasionally. It hasn't ruined my gameplay one bit.
"EE2 after the first day"
but i mean, what's the difference really between crafting 4 iron get a gold compared to just throw 4 iron away pick a gold. I can see the difference in say TC3 because it has cost, it has a lot of interaction, but EE2 was basically put iron in get gold out, at no penalty, no investment, no real research - and in a few hours gametime, iron and gold where as neglible as cobblestone is for most.
I didn't even really see any alchemy in it. Nothing _felt_ alchemical apart from a few random item names. Naming supercoal alumentum doesn't make it feel more alchemical, and naming the thing-that-converts-everything-at-no-cost the philosophers stone didn't make it feel more alchemical. Again the difference to TC3 is huge.
We're talking EE2; it's a completely different beast. As an example, a very early access item (as in, within at most first hour) allows you to scan a 3x3x64 block directed area and show you the three most valuable minerals (including diamond and others), so you know where to mine. To see an example of progression, here you have a beginner's guide that is a simple guide to progressing decently effective. Consider that the time table is as a "this is about as long as you as someone who has never used the mod before will need to spend", it's quite a bit faster the third time you do it.
Note that at 3 hours playtime they're freely, fully powered producing a bunch of diamonds per hour passively, plus a diamond every few minutes by mining, and after 7 hours you _passively_ make a diamond's worth every 1.22 minutes. Power increase is also crazy exponential, you can probably double your yield every 3 hours or so, so after a day you'd make diamond blocks in seconds, passively, without doing anything, and could convert them into anything you wanted (one diamond = 8192 cobblestone).
Basically, having just EE2 and no other mod was incredibly more powerful and quicker than having all other mods in the technic modpack (which was the largest techpack back then) combined.
Of course you could hold back, but so can you with creative.
It's not comparable at all to dartcraft though, they're completely different. While I think certain aspects in dartcraft are too powerful, they're not in the same ballpark or even universe.
It doesn't matter if it's after the first day or after the five hundred and first day, the fact remains that it still takes some effort and most importantly of all it's still fun, if you didn't find it fun that's fine but plenty of others did, I don't find first person shooters even remotely fun, and have disliked every 3D installment in the Metroid franchise, but I'm fine with other people loving the Metroid Prime games.
Honestly there is only a few problems with Dartcraft. The looting/fortune stacking and spoils bags not being rare drops (aka should require player involvement to drop) being the most important.
What i would like to see, is people claiming looting/furtune IV to be broken justify a pulverizer/macerator/OtherOreDubbler.
What i would like to see, is people claiming looting/furtune IV to be broken justify a pulverizer/macerator/OtherOreDubbler.
Sure, my question wasn't "is this fun", my question was, "what is the difference between playing EE2 after the first day and playing creative?". The first day I could get, really, the first chase too see how many minutes you can cut out of getting your first 9 diamond blocks, but after that it's basically the same as creative... If "convenience is king" as the person I asked the question to claimed, why even bother with survival?
Because it still takes effort, even if it's less effort it's still there, there's a difference between "I want convenience." and "I just want to do pixel art in creative mode."
You seem to still be ignoring the "after the first day" part (Also, to nit-pick, creative also takes effort, even if it's less effort it's still there ;P) but I'm not going to do this more since we're both OT and you've ignored a very relevant part of my post for like 3 posts straight now.
Back to DartCraft, I think the best solution would have been if the dev of DartCraft made two settings, an "easy mode" and a "normal mode", and the "normal mode" (which is balanced relative to other mods) is the standard delivered with FTB, so those that want it in easy mode can simply go in an change. That way, just downloading and playing FTB will give you the more coherent, linear experience, but when you've grown tired of hacking cobble for the three first hours in each of your 20 worlds you can simply turn on easy mode and have a much quicker start.
The wither drops are probably a bug and should be fixed, but unless the bug isn't ignored it doesn't really factor in whether the mod should be in the pack or not I think.
I only ever play singleplayer so I can indulge my playstyle without having to worry about other people on a server. I do like to have an easy time while playing which is why I have in the past dropped mods from my pack because they add to more grind than I care for, even if I liked aspects of the mod. I am enjoying Dartcraft because it does add a lot of things that suit my playstyle, and while in my worlds I am king, convenience is my Royal Vizier. Also, I like to start my worlds off in creative mode to find a good place to build a house, and to also actually build that house, then I switch to survival and play. I don't build any machines or pipes or infrastructure of that sort while I am in creative, and I don't use anything when building that I could later use. I do this so I don't harvest my ceiling when I need a couple of spare diamonds. I still like to play survival, but if I have to do it in a horrible dirt hovel I get bored and uninspired, especially if I have to wait ages for an igneous extruder to pump out enough cobble or if I have to strip mine for it. I like to build enormous buildings too so creative is to me a genuinely important part of a survival game.
I'm still perplexed that people can get all up in arms about "balance" in a game that you can never win, but always lose.
What else are you going to do, then? Keep complaining until the author decides his ideas are wrong, yours are right, and removes everything that makes his mod interesting? Seeing how much cross-mod interaction Dartcraft has, it's clear that it was made with having multiple mods in mind, so there's no way FTB's amount of content has anything to do with how "OP" it is. Some of the most controversial things about that mod can also be tweaked in the config, such as the burn time for liquid force and the damage reduction for the sturdy upgrade in armors (and I'm sure it's just a matter of time until Spoils Bags and any other enchantment can be turned off as well, so that Fortune IV that bothers you so much might cease to exist). Getting 60 Nether Stars from a single Wither is also most likely a bug, in fact there's no way it isn't a bug. The enchantment system the whole mod revolves around, the tools, armor, bags and whatnot are all there in the name of convenience (as mentioned already), and yes they are good because they're meant to be used.
The mod obviously isn't complete yet and thus still has a lot of bugs and things to implement, both in and out of the game, so you'll have to deal with it until new versions come up -- and in the meanwhile, you can choose to not exploit things you find too broken for you. As I see it, FTB (or modded Minecraft in general) has always been about choosing what you want to do with the enormous amount of resources you're given, so that "if you don't like it then don't use it" argument actually fits it pretty well. It's a sandbox game, after all, yes I am going to use this argument again you are the only one who can decide how difficult it should be, unless you're playing on a server I guess but that's why mods have config files.
Your next line will be "might as well play creative"!
Interesting is a point of view. But it doesn't really matter in this context - I might think that Dartcraft is the perfect mod in every way and that post still wouldn't be less relevant. Yes, giving input/criticizing (what you call "complaining) might change or add options in the mod, and if there's only a few people who think the mod is more "interesting" now than with different balance then that is at a whole a gain to the mod. The way I think it should be done is as I wrote above:
"I think the best solution would have been if the dev of DartCraft made two settings, an "easy mode" and a "normal mode", and the "normal mode" (which is balanced relative to other mods [for example, enchantment mods capped at the same as vanilla and force gems giving maybe 25% liquid force of what they do now]) is the standard delivered with FTB, so those that want it in easy mode can simply go in an change. That way, just downloading and playing FTB will give you the more coherent, linear experience, but when you've grown tired of hacking cobble for the three first hours in each of your 20 worlds you can simply turn on easy mode and have a much quicker start."
Yes, but config tweakes are advanced features and not every user will make them. I'm all in favor of config tweaks - in fact I've started a thread about balance/tech progression where I argue that config tweaks and/or mods that are basically just major reconfigs/rebalances is the way to go with the modpack. However, for the modpack to be really good and/or popular, which I assume the devs want, they have to have a clear design goal of what is the _default_ balance level of the modpack. What should the first impression to new players be? Advanced players are much more likely to be able to change configs or register on these forums and ask for help.
Thus, default config has to be set with the new players in mind, and making a consistent and coherent modpack is important because of that. I love Underground Biomes and add it to the modpack, but I don't argue it should be part of the default because it's a major change and makes the game more complex right of the bat (compare to tech mods which increase in complexity with tiers) and makes the modpack feel somewhat less coherent.
So, you think a mod like Dirt to Diamonds would fit well then?
Mount and blade is also a sandbox game, that doesn't mean starships would be appropriate in it.
EDIT:
No, not really. Comparing to creative is relevant when it comes to EE2 because it quickly gives you infinite access to everything in the game; DartCraft does not do that and is not close to creative at all. I LIKE DartCraft, I think it has flavor, decent mechanics and can be a good addition to FTB. I think it's good that it promotes manual work rather than superautomatisation. I think it needs to be toned down a little bit though, at least early game.
Starships are always appropriate, especially starships crewed by gnomes and powered by giant space hamsters.
Schyman, I am sincerely interested in your argument so I am pointing this out to you in the hope that you will realise that Ravemohl did anticipate you rather well there. Also, wouldn't it be better for beginner players to be using Dartcraft on easy settings? The configs are probably good then.
I think this is just being glib. EE2 never gave you creative. It was just a different game. Honestly, original IC2 UU matter is only slightly less broken than condensers (you could have a LOT of it, you know?).
EE2 actually was a really neat mod. It's just not feasible to work into most mixed modpack play.
I've decided after a lot of thought to keep RR in my modpack, but disabled by default. I recommend Dartcraft's use for inexperienced players or players who are trying to get a lot done in a hurry. It will certainly help people. It's one place to focus and get a ton of value, and therefore can act like kind of a stairstep into the world of more complex mixed modplay. A lot of friends in my gaming group have fallen off the modded minecraft wagon because they game is overhwelmingly complex and unguided to the novice player.
Sometimes I fear we're all stuck so far up our fusion reactors we forget that Minecraft is not and has never been a very difficult game, nor was it every really designed to be. Modpacks need to be accessible to a wide range of players, and that can strongly motivate modpack design.
A specific example:
I see DoctorOr bitterly growing Force trees and LOLing about gamebreaking golden power source. And I agree with him, inasmuch as it's very very good and easily eclipises every other refined solid fuel. But also I know that my friends who no longer MC with me would love it and say, "Finally this doesn't feel agonizingly hard.' DoctorOr is on a whole different level of Modded MC playing from most people in this forum (ask anyone who's played with him, he seldom disappoints), but sometimes I think he (and I, perhaps) lose perspective and forget that most people just can't keep up with what we're doing because they're not willing to invest a solid month of heavy gameplay just to learn the basics.
I may be missing something because English isn't my main language, but I did not say you might as well play creative? Ravemohl wrote:
"As I see it, FTB (or modded Minecraft in general) has always been about choosing what you want to do with the enormous amount of resources you're given, so that "if you don't like it then don't use it" argument actually fits it pretty well." (my bolding)
How is "if you don't like it then don't use it" not an argument that could exactly as well be used for any mod that gives "enormous amounts of resources"?
I'm not saying DartCraft is like playing creative or that you might as well play creative. I am saying that exact argument - "if you don't like it then don't use it" - sucks, because it ignores a whole lot and could just as easily be used and be exactly as strong and valid (which in my opinion is "very weak and with little validity", but YMMV) if applied to _any_ mod that doesn't change other mods, including for example dirt to diamonds.
Because DartCraft, while being easier/faster pace of teching (as in, "more quickly gain power"), would not necessarily be _simpler_ on easy settings, nor would it make for a more _coherent_ gameplay. People who are new at modded minecraft are not necessarily new to minecraft. However, FTB is a "mainstream" modpack kinda, so many new players will have this as their first encounter with modded minecraft. For people who aren't used to the mod scenes, who aren't used to all the buggy alpha and beta releases, work arounds and uglinesses and glitches, being met with a modpack that feels coherent and well-thought-through makes a hell of a lot of difference. DartCraft breaks the mold of power levels on many different things - it has enchantments far stronger than vanilla using it's own subsystem, it has engines that are extremely resourceeffective compared to anything but large multiblock structures, etc etc. It's also a mod that is still a bit buggy and glitchy, though I hope it'll be refined soon.
To take a more "extreme" example, look at Ars Magicka. It's a popular mod, it's well-done, massive and game-changing and a LOT of people are adding it. But because it is so different to everything else in FTB, it wouldn't fit to have it included as the standard. Now, DartCraft of course is much closer to FTB; it's subsystem is far less complex and far closer to vanilla, and it incorporates some of it's stuff with buildcraft, like having an engine. But it still stands out in quite a few ways, and look "odd" in a way that most other mods don't. Thus I think it needs to have some reconfiguration to fit with the style/theme/spririt of the pack.
And it should be noted, I think the same way about GregTech - it's a mod I enjoy and have added before, but it's not one I think should be in the main FTB modpack as it's so different from the other mods and alter the game balance and tech pace so profoundly (and because it nerfs vanilla items in a way that is also off-putting to "casual" players).
Saying something like "What's the difference between playing _____ and playing in creative mode?" carries the implication of "If you're going to play with ____ you might as well play in creative mode."