Changing Machine Mod bye bye IC2?
- Thread starter Bryantom
- Start date
Well from my experience, not really. You pay dearly for the extra speed by the increased power consumption. And unless you take advantage of cross mode "exploits" or the "OPness" of other mods producing IC2 power is not easy.So overclockers Arent broken?
And if add GT then the decision of adding overclockers is not to be taken lightly.
Yeah, but the augments work like this: x2 speed means x2 power. That's balanced, but it's on the easy side compared to IC2 - if you overclock an IC2 machine, x2 speed means MORE than x2 power. I don't know the exact numbers, but I think it's exponential.
I have no idea where you are going with this... How is the max amount of power something uses compared to something else a measure of how balance it is???
Yeah. Every Overclocker you add will make each operation about 12% more expensive. So you are paying with precious power for the luxury of speed.
The "commonly accepted" conversion rate used to be 2MJ per 5EU back in the olden days. So that equates to 4 RF/EU yeah.
But wouldn't expect that to hold any special meaning any more...
So true.
Hello, Rotarycraft! XD
There are definitely a lot of different standards for power production and consumption, but let's not go into those. It doesn't really make sense to compare them; everything makes sense in it's own local space, but the reality is that stuff exists in global space.
I routinely world hole all the spawn chunks on every world I play on so that there are no entities or tile entities in those chunks. I might add back a farm but usually it is a giant gash. Looks crap but I'll take those 2-3 ms of tick time processing chunks I don't look at any day of the week.
Incorrect. IC2 easily reaches 1 operation per tick. The only machine in TE that does that is the Cyclic Assembler, and even in that case, it costs more energy and is actually far slower than the normal process - crafting things, which is free (energy-wise) and instant (shift-click). Also, please see below for the efficiency argument, as you're also incorrect on that.
We care about balance quite a bit. That's why the machines themselves have to be upgraded. That's why there are limited number of augment slots. That's why augments don't stack. That's why some of the core functionality has been moved into augments. We force tradeoffs. And as stated above, it's ultimately FAR slower than IC2. And, as I'm about to prove below, it's also LESS efficient.
Just to preface, Type1Ninja, I'm not trying to yell at you here, I just want to break down the math. I apologize if I come off as aggressive. To everyone spouting nonsense though, no, I don't apologize. You're playing technical modded Minecraft, you are obviously intelligent - you should really know to do the research and the math on this. It's well within your capabilities.
The correct way to view this is in terms of total energy. Also, it's worth pointing out that because of how IC2 works, there is an inflection point in the calculation where adding overclockers actually reduces the energy penalty, because going from 2 ticks to 1 tick greatly reduces the overall energy.
IC2's overclockers reduce the time to 70% of its base, while costing an extra 12% energy. This is a multiplicative calculation, basically the total speed is given by (0.7)^N and the total energy given by (1.12)^N So, here are the results:
IC2:
~2x speed (2) -> 25% energy penalty
~4x speed (4) -> 57% energy penalty
~8x speed (6) -> 97% energy penalty
Non-comparables:
~16x speed (8) -> 147% energy penalty
~32x speed (10) -> 210% energy penalty
Note that because 0.7^2 is actually 0.49, the speed increases are actually slightly above 2, 4, and 8x.
TE:
2x speed -> 50% energy penalty
4x speed -> 100% energy penalty
8x speed -> 150% energy penalty
What's the point of all this? Here it is: DO THE RESEARCH.
Is it possible I'm wrong? Maybe, I'm going off the IC2 wiki. And before anybody comes back with, "No you messed up, it's 1.6x!" No, it isn't. This is a comparison of total energy, which is efficiency. 0.7 * 1.6 = 1.12. This is exactly why TE augments display the details of the augment and explicitly show the maximum power draw as well as the total energy penalty, like so:
That acronym has never felt more appropriate.
TL,DR: Math says that IC2 > TE and it's not even close. Also, you're all capable of doing this sort of research because you are smart people. *mic drop*
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And let's not forget, in comparison, that RotaryCraft operates on a logarithmic scale for multiple operations per tick. I don't have numbers on hand, but it's somewhere in the main mod thread. I do know that just to achieve 5 operations you'd need the full output of a well-designed ReC reactor.
EVERYTHING is generally well-balanced, mmkay?
Sent from my Puzzle Box of Yogg-Saron using Tapatalk 2
EVERYTHING is generally well-balanced, mmkay?
Sent from my Puzzle Box of Yogg-Saron using Tapatalk 2
?Incorrect. IC2 easily reaches 1 operation per tick. The only machine in TE that does that is the Cyclic Assembler, and even in that case, it costs more energy and is actually far slower than the normal process - crafting things, which is free (energy-wise) and instant (shift-click). Also, please see below for the efficiency argument, as you're also incorrect on that.
We care about balance quite a bit. That's why the machines themselves have to be upgraded. That's why there are limited number of augment slots. That's why augments don't stack. That's why some of the core functionality has been moved into augments. We force tradeoffs. And as stated above, it's ultimately FAR slower than IC2. And, as I'm about to prove below, it's also LESS efficient.
Just to preface, Type1Ninja, I'm not trying to yell at you here, I just want to break down the math. I apologize if I come off as aggressive. To everyone spouting nonsense though, no, I don't apologize. You're playing technical modded Minecraft, you are obviously intelligent - you should really know to do the research and the math on this. It's well within your capabilities.
The correct way to view this is in terms of total energy. Also, it's worth pointing out that because of how IC2 works, there is an inflection point in the calculation where adding overclockers actually reduces the energy penalty, because going from 2 ticks to 1 tick greatly reduces the overall energy.
IC2's overclockers reduce the time to 70% of its base, while costing an extra 12% energy. This is a multiplicative calculation, basically the total speed is given by (0.7)^N and the total energy given by (1.12)^N So, here are the results:
IC2:
~2x speed (2) -> 25% energy penalty
~4x speed (4) -> 57% energy penalty
~8x speed (6) -> 97% energy penalty
Non-comparables:
~16x speed (8) -> 147% energy penalty
~32x speed (10) -> 210% energy penalty
Note that because 0.7^2 is actually 0.49, the speed increases are actually slightly above 2, 4, and 8x.
TE:
2x speed -> 50% energy penalty
4x speed -> 100% energy penalty
8x speed -> 150% energy penalty
What's the point of all this? Here it is: DO THE RESEARCH.
Is it possible I'm wrong? Maybe, I'm going off the IC2 wiki. And before anybody comes back with, "No you messed up, it's 1.6x!" No, it isn't. This is a comparison of total energy, which is efficiency. 0.7 * 1.6 = 1.12. This is exactly why TE augments display the details of the augment and explicitly show the maximum power draw as well as the total energy penalty, like so:
That acronym has never felt more appropriate.
TL,DR: Math says that IC2 > TE and it's not even close. Also, you're all capable of doing this sort of research because you are smart people. *mic drop*
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TE pulverizers don't provide enough to be consider.ed op... at any speed. Perhapse when unfairly compared to mods designed to be tougher. But even then, you are grasping at straws.
Very little of TE is overpowered, while at the same time nothing is overpowered.
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Very little of TE is overpowered, while at the same time nothing is overpowered.
Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk
I just start my quarry at layer 55, so the surface topography is undisturbed. If you mistakenly dig down a few blocks you'll fall all the way to bedrock though, it's kind of like darwinism but with gravity.
Ahh I am glad to admit I have been misinformed then.TE:
2x speed -> 50% energy penalty
4x speed -> 100% energy penalty
8x speed -> 150% energy penalty
What's the point of all this? Here it is: DO THE RESEARCH.
Is it possible I'm wrong? Maybe, I'm going off the IC2 wiki. And before anybody comes back with, "No you messed up, it's 1.6x!" No, it isn't. This is a comparison of total energy, which is efficiency. 0.7 * 1.6 = 1.12. This is exactly why TE augments display the details of the augment and explicitly show the maximum power draw as well as the total energy penalty, like so:
That acronym has never felt more appropriate.
I suppose +50% penalty per operation is decent. Somewhere in the middle between IC2 and GT. But then again..
As I have tried to say earlier, I don't really think it is meaningful to make this comparison at all. After all the machines are made to be powered by two completely different power systems with widely different availabilities.
Simply because IC2s penalty is only 12%, TE is 50% and GT is 100%, then the harshness of the penalty might be completely different to the player. Producing the extra power with IC2 to keep up is usually hard. Lets face it, it is rarely with RF. It also comes down to what the base consumption of the machines are to begin with.
But bottom line I am glad to see that TE also got such a penalty on its augments.
First off, I think compared to other mods then I think IC2 have a very wide variety of options when it comes to producing power. I am hard pressed to come up with another mod offers so many different options of different generators. There is like 8-10 different generators where most of them will run on several/many different types of fuel/configurations.
Secondly there are several mods that can be added that will add to the variety of power generation options. But sadly the trend seems to be to add IC2 (Compact/Hybrid Solars for server stability) to modpacks and then call it done. It would be like adding TE and then nothing else RF. GT is the obvious answer as it adds a huge variety and can be added without actually interfering with anything, but that requires a lot of config work which most pack makers are probably not willing to put into it. Another option is Electromagic-tools which adds a bridge between Thaumcraft and IC2. It allows you to generate power from essentia etc. But again it needs to actually make it into the packs...
But I guess the amount of mods supplying power generation options is not truly what you mean is the problem, but the ease of which it is generated. Producing EU is hard and complicated and bothersome. And there is no real good way of doing it in real big quantities without at least a tiny tiny little bit of risk. But I think this have always been intended and this is what I personally LOVE. I love that I have to think about what I am doing. That there is a risk to it, that I have to invent safety measures and set up security. That I benefit from doing things smart instead of just willy-nilly hooking things up without a thought. And I actually have to consider hard if I can afford to put in another Overclocker or my power supply is already stretched to its limit. With RF I am constantly trying to think up things to spend all that unused power on and wondering if I could ever draw enough power to activate those two Big Reactors last in the chain on my power management system...
Well with ae installed you can Automate everything from ic2 which makes It as easy as TE
Ive done that on tppi 1.6 and It was actually Easier to Do then TE
I think ic2 and TE were pretty even in Terms of Balance before they Released Thermal foundation with 1.7
That made Most people forget ic2
Think too that the Ic2 Team an mainly gregT forgot About adding awesome New Stuff they focused just on updating for a very long time trying to fix all the issues that came with ic2exp Dont know if theyve even done a good Job with that
And many Other mods added New Stuff like crazy
Ender io almost Doubled its content since 1.6.4
So did ExU (i Consider It one of the Best mods available for minecraft btw)
Tema did an amazing Job with everything as lagless as possible
Replaced bc for the Most Part
Hope you did enjoy that 5 Minute reading if you even did that
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