Changing Machine Mod bye bye IC2?

[Azzanine]

Powerful yes, well used no. Lemming always said it could have tiers, but it never did past transmission limits. Suddenly Thermal Dyanmics comes and even that's not true anymore with infinite RF/t conduits. As for intuitive, coding wise it is (or was the last time I looked) a lot more simple than EU and indeed MJ that it replaced, for the end user it's down to how the mod implements it. You could do an IC2 style exploding if too much RT/t comes in but with conduits that can carry so much power you'd most likely be forcing the user down certain transmission methods, oops there goes completely intuitive. This is where floaty comes in, it doesn't have commonly divisible production values, so having tier based machines is very hard to achieve while still going with the RF trait of working well/integrating with other RF mods. Flexible is totally true, the range of RF using mods shows that. There is plenty more that could be done with RF though that hasn't been, and might never be able to at this point because of what is already there.

Yep, but that should just be a FTB problem. Look at Immersive Engineering for instance, If it was added to say Infinity I don't see a lot of it's features being used. Water Wheels/ Windmills might be used for early power, MAYBE a bio diesel generator if they don't want to opt for the more compact MFR rout. Belts wont see a look in because the mod works perfectly with ducts, the drill only goes 2x2 most will opt for a TiCo Hammer, The grinder as cool of a beast as it is only doubles ore and costs so much steel making 2x ore a post nether thing due to the blast furnace requirement, most will opt for a SAG mill or Pulverizer.
But if you look at it from a custom perspective there is no problem as you can make a pack where Immersive Engineering center stage, by omitting mods like EIO and TE. you can even use Minetweaker to buff EI or nerf EIO and TE.

Using IE as an example I don't think the stuff we have now is getting in the way of new innovative use, it's players insistence (or hard requirement due to multiplayer) on using standard packs and modders adherence to those packs balance paradigms.
Essentially what you are saying is that modders could do something clever and balanced with RF, but would rather not bother becasue they know their design wont be preferred over an easier/ more efficient option in the popular pack.

Even Modders who cut against the grain are guilty of worrying too much about what happens in packs. Reika for instance worries way too much about what other mods are doing/ interacting to his. Becasue he knows that if his mod shares a popular pack with said mod/s he'd be forced to conform to the standard or that players might find certain exploity mods to be considered requirements for use of his mods.
He can't be faulted for it either, 90% of players experience mods via large public packs if a mod interaction ruins a mods mechanic that's going to be perceived as the proper intended balance.

I think if we empower the player to customize and easily share their mod packs this in turn will empower modders to march to the beat of their own drums. We'd see more Immersive Engineerings and RotaryCrafts being made as they don't have to worry about how their design fit in to XFTB packs balance dynamic.

 

[Chocohead]

I wouldn't say RotaryCraft or Immersive Engineering is what I had in mind when I said there's plenty more that could be done. RotaryCraft isn't centred on RF at all and all Immersive Engineering adds is another form of RF ore processing and some more multiblocks to break across chunk boundries. I mean the cables Immersive Engineering are kinda cool, but they are just another form of RF transfer and although are edging to what I meant, it's still a little off. We need completely new ideas like Redpower had back in the day that nothing has done, and not just another semi-clone of something that already exists just slightly differently or more (or less) awkwardly. The big issue is that a lot of already obvious ideas have been done to death (ore processing, moving items, biofuel based power etc.) and finding something new that people will want is getting harder. Mods like RotaryCraft do show that there is a way out (although it doesn't bring RF on the way out), there is nothing that is remotely similar, but it's also drastically underused, which is where the other half of the problem comes that people don't like change, or expensive things. I think a lot of it is down to people to want to try other things and not just fall back to TE, EnderIO or Big Reactors when they see it's not your standard cheap RF mod. Moving the community's opinion on such a large scale would be almost impossible, which is where the brick wall of RF is.

Power converters are the bane of any future progress, why bother with a new system when you can RF it. Even mods like Botania and Bloodmagic have been injected with RF, which shows just how engrained RF has become as the universal source of power the way coal used to be. Rednet cables stop people exploring into making their IC2 generating systems and with mods like Immersive Engineering, they'd be so much better if you had to use their generators to make power as it would force you into going into the mod the way the old EU-MJ split did IC2 and BC. Heck, I even found a power converters addon for 1.4.7 for Redpower. With everything using RF there is no need to convert in the first place which destroys the complete exploration unless you explicitly choose or are forced, which isn't the organic way Minecraft used to be, or indeed should. Human nature is to take the easy option though so unless there's a big shift to move back into multiple power-sources, the future will be small, not really packs with a few RF using mods and kitchen sink ones where no one uses the small RF using mods unless there's a special cheap thing like letting you fly with just dirt.

I wouldn't just call it an FTB problem, the wider community hasn't been pushing for harder/more in-depth mods so they're just not coming. If you look at Technic and the AT Launcher they have the same problem, but Technic especially are swaying away from just tech packs to more RPG type ones (opposed to FTB's HQM obsession which is apparently the new cool thing) which encourages more mod diversity which can almost never be a bad thing.

 

[Type1Ninja]

Meh. MC is my playground; if that means reactors are a face roll, so be it.
RF, as simple as it is, also allows me to play with complex systems of inputs without worrying about explosions. Explosions have their place, but that place is NOT after a highly stressful day when all I want to do is relax.

I tell you what, if you go ahead and program an addon to RF that replaces standard cables with IC2 style limited ones, I'll play it. I'll play the crap out if it I still feel like there's more variety to RF addons, which is part of why I would like that.
Balancing is something that could be done. Perhaps someone could start a crowd-sourced project to truly balance the consumption and production of various RF mods through configs. So, say, an open GitHub repo, with all known RF mods, and a set of editable configs. Actually, come to think of it, I might do that.
Also, for RF --> magic, yeah that's terrible. I'm disabling that in any packs I make with magic and tech (although I probably won't, because I force myself to strict theming rules).

 

[Azzanine]

@Chocohead I wasn't talking about RF specifically. You are essentially saying no one's going to add nuance to RF becasue TE (and other RF gen/ useage mods) exist and that everyone likes things easy. It's simply not true and It's frankly a depressingly cynical way to view things.

Also popularity isn't everything, it's why I mentioned Reika. He knows he's not popular (in fact he's probably infamous in some circles) and I don't think RoC or any other of his mods are in any recent flagship FTB pack (otherwise I'd probably play it(also correct me if I'm wrong)). So what if it's underused, so long as it's used and the modder finds those few users make it worth while. FTB and the community isn't getting in the way of anything.

 

[asiekierka]

Hey, nobody seems to notice that BuildCraft 7 adds a config option for energy loss in Kinesis Pipes. And I think one pack - InfiTech 2? - actually uses it! (Based on what we had in BuildCraft for Minecraft 1.2.5-1.4.7, it should also be familiar to IC2 players)

(This config option has been added as an experiment, as I generally think lossless energy systems are boring and I'm trying to find a way to make BuildCraft's energy transport more interesting)

Generally, all the RF power inflation makes me want to do is... well. There's nothing I can do. Reinstating a next-generation MJ will never happen because everyone is happy on their fluxes, and I don't want BC to become a lonely island again.

 

[Azzanine]

Hey, nobody seems to notice that BuildCraft 7 adds a config option for energy loss in Kinesis Pipes. And I think one pack - InfiTech 2? - actually uses it! (Based on what we had in BuildCraft for Minecraft 1.2.5-1.4.7, it should also be familiar to IC2 players)

(This config option has been added as an experiment, as I generally think lossless energy systems are boring and I'm trying to find a way to make BuildCraft's energy transport more interesting)

Generally, all the RF power inflation makes me want to do is... well. There's nothing I can do. Reinstating a next-generation MJ will never happen because everyone is happy on their fluxes, and I don't want BC to become a lonely island again.

(not necessarily addressing Asie here, just quoting an example)

See an example of what I said before (in bold); Modders are too afraid of being unpopular to do new things. It's no fault of the FTB community, it's modders fear of being out of their favor. After all the FTB community isn't going to just change, nor should they.
People who make things need to find a balance between catering to suggestions/ whims and pioneering new ideas. Henry Ford said once that if he asked a person what they wanted they'd have said a faster horse. What he did was give them the fast but without the horse.
Of course don't go Apple levels of retarded and start just dictateing what people want, be balanced.

I also find it funny how magic mods can get away with bringing in new systems for their magical energy source and noone is saying "OMG Aura Cascade is like so stupid it should just run on LP, actuall all magic mods should! blah blah rahh! rahh!". Instead you end up with clever things like Aura Cascade, Botania and the likes all with their vastly different systems. While there's mods that allow for some limited conversion Like Forbidden Magic and Technomancy. Magic mods and their modders have been able to do their own thing for quite a while.

I think this RF domination thing is caused by tech modders not sticking to their guns when they have a good and new idea. Too concerned about how the FTB community will take their project and how popular it will be. Also RF might be popular due to how it's apparently easy to work with, but don't quote me on that I have never really used a scripting language let alone modding.

(Now addressing Asie)

You could always make a separate version a more purpose built streamlined version of BC "BuildCraft Expert addition" centered on it's self with this "new" MJ. But then again that would mean supporting 2 versions of a similar product effectively doubling your work. Just do what you feel is worth while as if you weren't already.

 

[Reika]

I think this RF domination thing is caused by tech modders not sticking to their guns when they have a good and new idea. Too concerned about how the FTB community will take their project and how popular it will be. Also RF might be popular due to how it's apparently easy to work with, but don't quote me on that I have never really used a scripting language let alone modding.

A big portion of it is also demographics. RF, being substantially easier gameplay-wise, as well as the fact that most RF mods are much simpler and more forgiving, has ushered in a new type of player (either by making existing players complacent or by lowering the denominator), one who both requires and demands that sort of gameplay from every mod. As soon as they find a mod not in that mold, they will make their disapproval vocally, overwhelmingly, aggressively clear. Many modders likely have been pressured by this, or by the movements it indirectly spawned (such as packs trying to focus on RF, or the fact more and more mods are going to RF).

You are entirely correct when you mention popularity (or lack thereof) being a strong motivating factor. I am regularly told my "stubborn, singleminded adherence" to the design of my mods is "permanently relegating them to obscurity", and mods that are designed to do nothing else but subvert that are not only not disapproved of but often encouraged and/or threatened. Case in point: Remember RotaryFlux, which did nothing else but turn RotaryCraft into a (horribly unbalanced) RF mod? Roughly half of the people who saw it approved of it, and more than that acted like it was unreasonable for me to disapprove of it, even after the original developer came forward and stated that yes, it was a terrible, naive idea.

 

[King Lemming]

(not necessarily addressing Asie here, just quoting an example)
See an example of what I said before (in bold); Modders are too afraid of being unpopular to do new things. It's no fault of the FTB community, it's modders fear of being out of their favor. After all the FTB community isn't going to just change, nor should they.
People who make things need to find a balance between catering to suggestions/ whims and pioneering new ideas. Henry Ford said once that if he asked a person what they wanted they'd have said a faster horse. What he did was give them the fast but without the horse.

Just as an interesting exercise, go back and read some of the old posts when I announced RF. There was a whole lot of, "But I liked TE, now I'll never play it again. " and, <insert xkcd standards comic here>.

It's really sort of funny in retrospect, since RF exists exactly because I went out on a limb.

 

[Type1Ninja]

RF being easy and forgiving isn't all bad. I don't insist that everything should use RF; I respect IC2 for what it is - a challenge to force you to think p. At the same time, I appreciate RF for how I use it - as a sandbox. Easy isn't bad, it's just different. Stop beating up easy! Modded MC is an escapist realm of play where the normal rules of physics, especially those concerning time, electricity, and my own strength, do not apply. So, I (and others) am justified in wanting an easy electricity system. I also feel justified in wanting compatibility between harder mods and my own easy mods - those harder mods add cool stuff, and I want to use it! Again, I use MC as a break; I don't want to be told that if I want to use a mod I need to get smarter. So, go ahead and bash people who insist on RF for everything, but at least understand where they're coming from.

 

[jdog1408]

I really like EnderIO, simple(but not too simple) recipes and a good amount of complexity and an easy upgrade system(Capacitors) and the I really enjoy the dark steel armour because it offers good protection and cool modifications. Not quite as OP as IC2 but still will last a while. And for endgame just do Draconic Evolution

 

[asiekierka]

You could always make a separate version a more purpose built streamlined version of BC "BuildCraft Expert addition" centered on it's self with this "new" MJ. But then again that would mean supporting 2 versions of a similar product effectively doubling your work. Just do what you feel is worth while as if you weren't already.

Far too much work. The reason I moved to RF is (a) keep compatibility with all BC addons of old and (b) shift the balancing from the modders to the modpack makers, giving them more freedom by providing an alternate RF backbone (with optional energy loss etc.)

It is unfortunate that many modpack makers do not pay attention to that minute detail.

 

[GreenZombie]

Far too much work. The reason I moved to RF is (a) keep compatibility with all BC addons of old and (b) shift the balancing from the modders to the modpack makers, giving them more freedom by providing an alternate RF backbone (with optional energy loss etc.)

It is unfortunate that many modpack makers do not pay attention to that minute detail.

The issue I have with energy loss in IC2 and "old" BC (pre perdition) is that the balancing of it seems to assume a Direwolf20 9x9 style 'compact' build. My base is normally the maximum area I can keep chunkloaded - i.e. 176x176m.

So, I don't know if Immersive Engineering has power loss. But its cabling system is the only system so far I would tolerate power loss in.

 

[asiekierka]

The issue I have with energy loss in IC2 and "old" BC (pre perdition) is that the balancing of it seems to assume a Direwolf20 9x9 style 'compact' build. My base is normally the maximum area I can keep chunkloaded - i.e. 176x176m.

So, I don't know if Immersive Engineering has power loss. But its cabling system is the only system so far I would tolerate power loss in.

Guess why it's a config option? Generally, I added it because some people prefer this style of play, but the promoting of compact builds (which impact FPS and are often not very Minecrafty) is exactly why it won't be on by default. (Even for those who have it on, diamond power pipes are lossless. Not glass fibre lossless, actual lossless.)

The second thing I want to look into is CovertJaguar's old "idle power draw" system. Adding it to other machines is a no-go, but I plan on implementing it on the pipes side (again, as a config option). It fixed the penalization of large builds by making the draw constant, however it was fairly annoying to work with (by design!). Power switch pipes helped a lot, but then the idle power draw didn't matter much anymore as you could just flick levers.

Another thing is what I think TE2 did: a 5% constant loss upon energy extraction. The only thing this would really penalize, however, is batteries, so not much point.

Making BuildCraft power more interesting has been a topic of long, tiring internal debates, and we still don't know what to do. This will take time.

 

[Inaeo]

Guess why it's a config option? Generally, I added it because some people prefer this style of play, but the promoting of compact builds (which impact FPS and are often not very Minecrafty) is exactly why it won't be on by default. (Even for those who have it on, diamond power pipes are lossless. Not glass fibre lossless, actual lossless.)

The second thing I want to look into is CovertJaguar's old "idle power draw" system. Adding it to other machines is a no-go, but I plan on implementing it on the pipes side (again, as a config option). It fixed the penalization of large builds by making the draw constant, however it was fairly annoying to work with (by design!). Power switch pipes helped a lot, but then the idle power draw didn't matter much anymore as you could just flick levers.

Another thing is what I think TE2 did: a 5% constant loss upon energy extraction. The only thing this would really penalize, however, is batteries, so not much point.

Making BuildCraft power more interesting has been a topic of long, tiring internal debates, and we still don't know what to do. This will take time.

It's nice to know its still something that you are trying to keep fresh and exciting. I've been toying with the idea of building a pack for our small server to test, and I may try turning power loss on to start, just to try something different. After all, if all else fails and we can't deal with it, its just a config fix, right?

 

[asiekierka]

It's nice to know its still something that you are trying to keep fresh and exciting. I've been toying with the idea of building a pack for our small server to test, and I may try turning power loss on to start, just to try something different. After all, if all else fails and we can't deal with it, its just a config fix, right?

Yup!

 

[Ieldra]

While quarrying over water is bad for performance it had the advantage of avoiding those instances where you'd end up with a glorified cobble gen. Also there was no obvious world holes.
But as Rhn states this tanks your performance craplodes when your quarry is large. NEVER make a 64X64 size quarry over water, it only gives you an express ticket to lagvill via crash town.
You might be able to get awat with a default 16x16 one but the larger you go the more water calculations occur.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk

Hmm....not in my experience. At least not if you put your quarry over the ocean with no solid blocks anywhere at the surface. No flowing water there, instead source blocks will be generated as your quarry removes the solid blocks. It's been a while since I did this though, maybe things changed?

 

[GreenZombie]

Hmm....not in my experience. At least not if you put your quarry over the ocean with no solid blocks anywhere at the surface. No flowing water there, instead source blocks will be generated as your quarry removes the solid blocks. It's been a while since I did this though, maybe things changed?

Also, I don't understand that "Flowing" blocks will impose any performance penalty at all. They are not more prone than anything else to generating or propagating block updates, and don't impose any rendering penalty when hidden/surrounded by water - any more than regular water source blocks would.

 

[Ieldra]

About "easy" vs. "interesting" in tech mods:

The main problem I have with the viewpoint that things shouldn't be easy but interesting is that for many people, "interesting" appears to equal weak, grindy, or both. That's one pitfall I commend RotaryCraft for avoiding. Things are fairly complex (and that equals "interesting" most of all from my point of view), but once you've managed to understand and build the required appliances, it's very powerful, and it's never, ever grindy. Compare GregTech, which is even more complex but where mining is a frustrating grind to start with and remains that if you don't add other tech mods with powerful automated mining, and where power generation is weak until you get to the endgame stuff.

In general, people will tend to avoid an otherwise nice and interesting mod if they don't feel they get an appropriate payoff of some kind. That payoff can take several forms, including aesthetic appeal, the satisfaction of having done things differently etc..., but for continuing appeal, whatever else a mod does, it must do what it does well and in a fairly efficient way. Some mods make certain things so "interesting" that while I'm playing with them, I spend most of the time thinking about how to avoid having to deal with those things, and that's not enjoyable. YMMV of course, but I suspect it's similar for the great majority of technology-minded players of modded Minecraft.

As a general guideline, once I'm starting to think about installing another mod to my pack in order to get around some of the "interesting" stuff, that's an indication that in order to make things interesting, some things may have been made too weak or too grindy to be enjoyable. Some players may feel differently, but in those cases, I appreciate the presence of "easy" options.

 

[GreenZombie]

That is one thing I feel Rotarycraft gets really right. Despite being very deep there is an immediate payoff to starting to invest in it and it immediately starts to solve the real issues one suffers in the early game.

 

[Type1Ninja]

About "easy" vs. "interesting" in tech mods:

The main problem I have with the viewpoint that things shouldn't be easy but interesting is that for many people, "interesting" appears to equal weak, grindy, or both. That's one pitfall I commend RotaryCraft for avoiding. Things are fairly complex (and that equals "interesting" most of all from my point of view), but once you've managed to understand and build the required appliances, it's very powerful, and it's never, ever grindy. Compare GregTech, which is even more complex but where mining is a frustrating grind to start with and remains that if you don't add other tech mods with powerful automated mining, and where power generation is weak until you get to the endgame stuff.

In general, people will tend to avoid an otherwise nice and interesting mod if they don't feel they get an appropriate payoff of some kind. That payoff can take several forms, including aesthetic appeal, the satisfaction of having done things differently etc..., but for continuing appeal, whatever else a mod does, it must do what it does well and in a fairly efficient way. Some mods make certain things so "interesting" that while I'm playing with them, I spend most of the time thinking about how to avoid having to deal with those things, and that's not enjoyable. YMMV of course, but I suspect it's similar for the great majority of technology-minded players of modded Minecraft.

As a general guideline, once I'm starting to think about installing another mod to my pack in order to get around some of the "interesting" stuff, that's an indication that in order to make things interesting, some things may have been made too weak or too grindy to be enjoyable. Some players may feel differently, but in those cases, I appreciate the presence of "easy" options.

Yeah... I like "easy" when I want to play in a sandbox and get started quickly, which, with time constraints, is all the time. Interesting isn't bad, but don't hate on easy for being easy. It's a perfectly legitimate playstyle which stems from a different set of circumstances.