Mod Feedback [By Request] RotaryCraft Suggestions

[Reika]

Any opinions on this?

Since MJ is gone and thus with it the old basis for the MJ/RC power conversion ratio, I redid the calculations, using the magma crucible as the new reference (default 200kRF per stone block, corresponding to 5.2MJ real energy). The end result is that RF is now worth roughly 10.8% of what it used to be in real-world power. This means the following:

• All RF consumers will consume 9x as much RF as before
• All RF generators will generate 9x as much RF as before
• The RC steam engine can now generate 31.5RF/t
• A TE3 dynamo generates 41.6kW (down from 450kW)
• The rotational dynamo limit (and the native RC per-block generation limit) is now 129kRF/t
• An ReC LP turbine can now produce about 1.82MRF/t
• An ReC HP turbine can now produce about 16.52MRF/t
• An ReC Fusion Reactor can now produce at least 230.77MRF/t

To be fair, this is a bit of a drastic change, but I want a ratio based on some level of realistic calculation like before.

Also, since the TE3 recipes are configurable, I allow for some variability as well; within 50% to 200% of the default (200kRF per stone block), the ratio is adjusted. Beyond that is clamped to avoid excessive values.


Also, this affects the IC2 conversion rate as well, putting it at ~1EU/t = 2.08kW, down from 22kW.

 

[Someone Else 37]

Your conversions were based off BC fuel being gasoline, right? To my knowledge, the Combustion Engine hasn't changed other than that it produces RF instead of MJ, so I don't see why this change alone would lead you to redo your conversions.

However, it seems that many more people use lava power than BC fuel, so a conversion ratio based on the more popular fuel does make sense. It would also neatly fix the Rock Melter/Magmatic Dynamo exploit that, if I remember correctly, you fixed a while back by nerfing the rock melter.

 

[abculatter_2]

A steam engine producing 31.5 rf/t is just no.
Why not just base the conversion on oil, like suggested above?

 

[Sempuh]

I like the new conversions.

 

[Pyure]

I've helped PneumatiCraft and GalactiCraft debug their conversion systems, and one thing I've learned: specific ratios are less helpful in a mod if its going to be packaged with other mods in unforeseen ways.

Those two mods both provide configurable conversion ratios, and in both cases the the ratio can be uni-directional: pay 7RF to get 1MJ, then pay 1MJ and get 6RF. This is critical not just to prevent infinite power loops, but to provide balance points.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[abculatter_2]

I've helped PneumatiCraft and GalactiCraft debug their conversion systems, and one thing I've learned: specific ratios are less helpful in a mod if its going to be packaged with other mods in unforeseen ways.

Those two mods both provide configurable conversion ratios, and in both cases the the ratio can be uni-directional: pay 7RF to get 1MJ, then pay 1MJ and get 6RF. This is critical not just to prevent infinite power loops, but to provide balance points.

Just my 2 cents.

RoC already has a 25% loss with any power conversion.

 

[Pyure]

RoC already has a 25% loss with any power conversion.

That should mitigate most loops, assuming most mods sort of generally agree on standard conversion ratios, but the ones Reika is considering...not 100% sure. Is it configurable or fixed to 25%?

 

[LoaTBaC]

I think I might have found a bug/exploit in ReactorCraft, possibly related to one in vanilla. If you stack a large number of TNT minecarts in one place, it produces an abnormally large explosion (vanilla). In my testing (http://imgur.com/gallery/lJoXg), I've found that if you detonate a spent fuel container (and maybe reactors too, haven't tested), it seems to spawn in much more radiation than normal. Both images below were done with two full spent fuel containers, the first of which accompanied by several TNT minecarts.

 

[Reika]

I've helped PneumatiCraft and GalactiCraft debug their conversion systems, and one thing I've learned: specific ratios are less helpful in a mod if its going to be packaged with other mods in unforeseen ways.

Those two mods both provide configurable conversion ratios, and in both cases the the ratio can be uni-directional: pay 7RF to get 1MJ, then pay 1MJ and get 6RF. This is critical not just to prevent infinite power loops, but to provide balance points.

Just my 2 cents.

?? MJ is gone, so you cannot get feedback loops with it.

A steam engine producing 31.5 rf/t is just no.

Why?

I think I might have found a bug/exploit in ReactorCraft, possibly related to one in vanilla. If you stack a large number of TNT minecarts in one place, it produces an abnormally large explosion (vanilla). In my testing (http://imgur.com/gallery/lJoXg), I've found that if you detonate a spent fuel container (and maybe reactors too, haven't tested), it seems to spawn in much more radiation than normal. Both images below were done with two full spent fuel containers, the first of which accompanied by several TNT minecarts.

Not a bug. Explosions spread radiation.

 

[LoaTBaC]

Not a bug. Explosions spread radiation.

Oh.

 

[abculatter_2]

Why?

Because a steam engine is very easy to set up in the early game, and requires minimal automation to set up and make run infinitely. (A pump and lit netherrack)
This, compared to the Thermal Expansion equivalent, the steam dynamo, which though it produces a little more then twice the energy it requires both a pump and a tree farm to fully automate. Tree farms, unless you use Minefactory, are a considerably greater engineering challlenge then netherrack fires

 

[Demosthenex]

Because a steam engine is very easy to set up in the early game, and requires minimal automation to set up and make run infinitely. (A pump and lit netherrack)
This, compared to the Thermal Expansion equivalent, the steam dynamo, which though it produces a little more then twice the energy it requires both a pump and a tree farm to fully automate. Tree farms, unless you use Minefactory, are a considerably greater engineering challlenge then netherrack fires

I agree here. The dynamo makes 80 RF/t but requires constant inputs (ie: coal farm). Steam engine only requires water.

I thought the original conversion was fine. It made low end RoC engines produce insufficient RF, but the high end was still awesome. I think if the low end jumps up, it'll unbalance things.

 

[Pyure]

?? MJ is gone, so you cannot get feedback loops with it.

MJ was just by way of example, first thing that popped into my head. Sorry. Any pack with energy conversions from multiple mods can provide infinite energy loops mathematically.

 

[Reika]

Because a steam engine is very easy to set up in the early game, and requires minimal automation to set up and make run infinitely. (A pump and lit netherrack)
This, compared to the Thermal Expansion equivalent, the steam dynamo, which though it produces a little more then twice the energy it requires both a pump and a tree farm to fully automate. Tree farms, unless you use Minefactory, are a considerably greater engineering challlenge then netherrack fires

I agree here. The dynamo makes 80 RF/t but requires constant inputs (ie: coal farm). Steam engine only requires water.

I thought the original conversion was fine. It made low end RoC engines produce insufficient RF, but the high end was still awesome. I think if the low end jumps up, it'll unbalance things.

I find TE3 an order of magnitude easier, and I strongly suspect most players agree.

Also, I want to and will increase the value of RC power relative to RF, because entry-level RF engines being on par with mid-game RC engines and new BR reactors being able to outperform a fusion reactor is unacceptable.

 

[abculatter_2]

Anyone capable of multiplication will likely find the most difficult part of setting up a steam engine to be googling how use lava without blowing it up. And even then, at 30 rf/t for free forever almost anywhere, i forsee more then a few people using your mod solely for converting steam engines into rf, and just copying other people's set ups without actually learning the mod.
A tree farm is only easier if you have something like minefactory turning it into a "place these two blocks" affair.
If you do change it, could you at least have a config option for old values?

 

[Polymorph]

To be honest, with the ingredient requirements for converting shaft power to RF, most players looking for "free" power would be able to pump lava from the nether at around the same time.

 

[ljfa]

I once made a private pack where the only way to generate RF was through RoC. You couldn't really do much with RF consumers early game because you didn't have much power. Now the gasoline engine will give 126 RF/t right off the bat.

 

[abculatter_2]

To be honest, with the ingredient requirements for converting shaft power to RF, most players looking for "free" power would be able to pump lava from the nether at around the same time.

... Thinking about this, you actually do have a point here. And that fact makes me realize reika's point.
Thinking about it further, there is actually a rather significant effort disparity between the mods, that i never really noticed due to using TE as an auxilery mod rather then a main one...
Still, 9x would make RoC completely unbalanced in cross-mod interactions. Edit: on second thought, actually no it wouldnt. I keep forgetting how ridiculously cheap everything in TE is...

 

[Polymorph]

Maybe the rotational dynamo might need tiering upgrades if it's really that much of a problem. I can see gasoline engines outputting that much 24/7 with a good farming setup.

 

[abculatter_2]

Maybe the rotational dynamo might need tiering upgrades if it's really that much of a problem. I can see gasoline engines outputting that much 24/7 with a good farming setup.

Actually, this is a much better illustration of reika's point. A gasoline engine requires a decent amount of iron, as well as a bit of gold. (Can someone give exact amounts?) This will give 124 rf/t, about equivalent to 1.5 steam dynamos (16.5 - 18 copper, 1.5 silver) while gasoline requires more infrastructure to make fully sustainable (sugar plantation, sugar grinder, fermenter, sand grinder, composter vs tree farm and a powered furnace )