Mod Feedback [By Request] RotaryCraft Suggestions

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Reika

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Buildcraft is not "shifting to RF" in the sense that it will use the same energy system Thermal Expansion's baseline implementation currently uses. Instead it will use the RF API to re-implement MJ with all of its current behavior. The idea is to deprecate the Buildcraft power API which has been called bad names by a lot of people and instead replace it with a different API that has been lauded by a lot of people.

Mind you I'm no coder person, so I don't know if using the same API means that any forms of energy calling it will be intrinsically convertible into each other without dedicated conversion logic (perhaps this is what you mean). But from a content standpoint, MJ is not going away.
I am (very) happy to hear this, but am not sure about its effect on the air compressor.

Also, the animation on the air compressor is purely clientside and visual; it has no effect on the power supply, nor could it.

And the pressure mechanic is there for realism. An electric generator would at worst melt if overloaded. An air compressor will detonate.
 

namae

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I see nothing worth responding to (aside from this post, apparently).
I gave a suggestion and stated reasons why electricraft is hardly of any use. Since Demosthenex made no real points against it besides "It can be used" I wrongly assumed you would have something to say. I don't know what I'm expecting really
 

Padfoote

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I gave a suggestion and stated reasons why electricraft is hardly of any use. Since Demosthenex made no real points against it besides "It can be used" I wrongly assumed you would have something to say. I don't know what I'm expecting really

You are stating it has no use to you. Those of us who actively choose to use the mod find a use in it. I can make the same claim about TE3, and it will be the exact same scenario but with a different name thrown in there.
 

namae

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You are stating it has no use to you. Those of us who actively choose to use the mod find a use in it. I can make the same claim about TE3, and it will be the exact same scenario but with a different name thrown in there.
Please tell me a mod, which does everything TE3 does preferably with same quality or better.
 

McJty

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Please tell me a mod, which does everything TE3 does preferably with same quality or better.

I would say EnderIO would be a good chance. It doesn't have the fluid support that TE has but other then that it has some great machines and an EXCELLENT conduit system (multiple conduits for energy, redstone, AE, items and fluids in the *same* block) and nice facade system.

In 1.7.10 EnderIO is also hugely improved with lots of new machines and stuff. If EnderIO is available I always use that as my main tech support mod for simple 2x ore processing and cabling.

Ah yes, EnderIO also has a tesseract alternative (dimensional tranceiver) and a nice multiblock capacitor system which lets you make really big RF storage cells with lots of I/O speed.
 
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Omicron

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Also, the animation on the air compressor is purely clientside and visual; it has no effect on the power supply, nor could it.

The piston animation is purely clientside on Buildcraft engines as well, but they do run an internal timer and logic that starts at the same time that the engine animation does, and that governs the energy output. It's just a constant loop of "get current buffer status -> determine ticks to wait according to buffer status -> wait determined number of ticks -> output for one tick up to burst output limit if buffer has enough and destination accepts enough -> get current buffer status -> ...". Many of the original Buildcraft engines had very fixed engine states (blue, green, yellow, red) where the animation of the piston was exactly the same as the internal counter (and thus the engine only knew four speeds), but in more recent times, CovertJaguar introduced a gradual speed curve. You can see this in Railcraft's steam engines: the piston speed and animation is still fixed to the four engine states, but internally the output ticks are completely desynced from the animation. Comparing the GUI to the engine animation easily lets you see this. Last I checked Buildcraft's combustion engine also shifted to this behavior while CJ was maintaining it.

And the pressure mechanic is there for realism. An electric generator would at worst melt if overloaded. An air compressor will detonate.

As for the pressure, if you want to keep it, the peak point could be more suitably aligned with the power output achievable with one of your engines (such a 1 MW or 2 MW or even 67 MW, but not 1.32 MW). The handbook should help the player figure out where the explosion limit lies in relation to either input or output power, as the player cannot figure it out from the pressure metric alone (for reasons explained previously). Additionally, there's balance considerations to be made in comparison to the other converters. The compressor is clearly not competitive with any of the other options even if you completely ignore the explosion hazard. It makes no sense to say "I am letting you convert all the power you'll ever need from my mod to all these others with just a single plug-and-play block! Except for that mod over there, where you'll need 52 of them plus a giant mountain of shaft junctions or shaft power buses and an engineering degree to handle even one of my top tier engines."

Also, it is my opinion that an air compressor would not detonate, but rather it would blow a valve and vent the excess pressure (possibly not even stopping its work). At least if it was constructed by an even remotely sane engineer :p Some failure modes are inherently problematic and cannot be engineered around, such as "idiot kept the engine on without cooling", but "idiot caused too much pressure inside a pressure vessel" is definitely not one of them. Pressure valves have been around for hundreds of years. In Minecraft modding, Railcraft steam engines and boilers are doing it, for example, as are Forestry's engines. You can still violently destroy a Railcraft boiler if you pump cold water into a dry and 1000°C hot boiler, but that's a failure mode you can't engineer around, and therefore its presence makes perfect sense.

Please tell me a mod, which does everything TE3 does preferably with same quality or better.

Pointless question - since that matter is subjective, nothing he can answer will actually sway your opinion.
 
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Padfoote

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Please tell me a mod, which does everything TE3 does preferably with same quality or better.

You are missing the point. You say that ElectriCraft as it currently stands is pointless, while I disagree and say TE3 is pointless. Both claims are opinions and do not need to be thrown around as if they are fact, which is what you are currently doing.
 
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Reika

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The piston animation is purely clientside on Buildcraft engines as well, but they do run an internal timer and logic that starts at the same time that the engine animation does, and that governs the energy output. It's just a constant loop of "get current buffer status -> determine ticks to wait according to buffer status -> wait determined number of ticks -> output for one tick up to burst output limit if buffer has enough and destination accepts enough -> get current buffer status -> ...".
I can theoretically add this, but is it ultimately necessary? MJ is energy, and as such the second derivative should not matter.

Many of the original Buildcraft engines had very fixed engine states (blue, green, yellow, red) where the animation of the piston was exactly the same as the internal counter (and thus the engine only knew four speeds), but in more recent times, CovertJaguar introduced a gradual speed curve.
...I like the old way better.


As for the pressure, if you want to keep it, the peak point could be more suitably aligned with the power output achievable with one of your engines (such a 1 MW or 2 MW or even 67 MW, but not 1.32 MW). The handbook should help the player figure out where the explosion limit lies in relation to either input or output power, as the player cannot figure it out from the pressure metric alone (for reasons explained previously). Additionally, there's balance considerations to be made in comparison to the other converters. The compressor is clearly not competitive with any of the other options even if you completely ignore the explosion hazard. It makes no sense to say "I am letting you convert all the power you'll ever need from my mod to all these others with just a single plug-and-play block! Except for that mod over there, where you'll need 52 of them plus a giant mountain of shaft junctions or shaft power buses and an engineering degree to handle even one of my top tier engines."
?? All three of the functioning converters have limits. Not all penalize overloading, but that should matter rather little. That said, the air compressor's limit is indeed rather lower than the others'.

Also, it is my opinion that an air compressor would not detonate, but rather it would blow a valve and vent the excess pressure (possibly not even stopping its work). At least if it was constructed by an even remotely sane engineer :p Some failure modes are inherently problematic and cannot be engineered around, such as "idiot kept the engine on without cooling", but "idiot caused too much pressure inside a pressure vessel" is definitely not one of them. Pressure valves have been around for hundreds of years. In Minecraft modding, Railcraft steam engines and boilers are doing it, for example, as are Forestry's engines. You can still violently destroy a Railcraft boiler if you pump cold water into a dry and 1000°C hot boiler, but that's a failure mode you can't engineer around, and therefore its presence makes perfect sense.
I interpret the machines in RC (and other mods) as crude approximations of the real-world ones (after all, they are built by hand from hunks of metal), where refinements such as pressure valves do not exist.
 

namae

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I would say EnderIO would be a good chance. It doesn't have the fluid support that TE has but other then that it has some great machines and an EXCELLENT conduit system (multiple conduits for energy, redstone, AE, items and fluids in the *same* block) and nice facade system.
No strongboxes, no autonomous activator/machinist workbench/ingenious extruder/etc. No real power generation besides solar panels. Capacitor output scales only from size while TE3 gives multiple storages in single block. The trick is while TE3 and ender io look similar they have unique properties which make them useful even if you are making stuff from other mod. Ender Io have conduit bundles, alloy smelter, some very nice recipes and still desirable.
You say that ElectriCraft as it currently stands is pointless
I don't say its pointless because Its only my opinion, I say its pointless because it does not offer anything, what is objectively better than what RoC already has. Storing power is same, transiting power is even worse. There are no new generators and no new machines. Every setup you can make with ElC you can also make with RoC, and it gonna be cheaper, easier and take far less space. Now for the last time, what is ElC good for?
 

Padfoote

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I don't say its pointless because Its only my opinion, I say its pointless because it does not offer anything, what is objectively better than what RoC already has. Storing power is same, transiting power is even worse. There are no new generators and no new machines. Every setup you can make with ElC you can also make with RoC, and it gonna be cheaper, easier and take far less space. Now for the last time, what is ElC good for?

Again, this is your opinion. It offers plenty to those of us who actually use it. And again, I can say that TE3 offers nothing and you will disagree, because it's an opinion. Opinions are not facts, so please stop throwing them around as if they're the same.
 

midi_sec

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Also, it is my opinion that an air compressor would not detonate, but rather it would blow a valve and vent the excess pressure (possibly not even stopping its work).
That is a big leap of faith assuming one would include a rupture disc or safety valve in the design.

At least if it was constructed by an even remotely sane engineer .
Yep, there ya go.

My design philosophy is scary. If I don't think I need the safety features, I won't include them. I don't plan on this thing blowing up... :rolleyes:
 

namae

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Again, this is your opinion.
it does not offer anything, what is objectively better than what RoC already has.
There are no new generators and no new machines. Every setup you can make with ElC you can also make with RoC, and it gonna be cheaper, easier and take far less space.
Please educate yourself.
It offers plenty to those of us who actually use it.
And this is opinion, because I've yet to hear what exactly it offers and how that contradict my points.
 

Kirameki

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Now for the last time, what is ElC good for?
Fine-control power distribution over distance.

I have some gripes over ElC myself (I think I was one of the most vocal complainers about the old variable-input lag issue ^^; ) but I understand its purpose; shaft junctions limit you to fixed ratios, and buses limit distance. ElC overcomes these two limitations to a degree by allowing you to distribute power at a finer level with resistors over large distances.
 

Ieldra

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No strongboxes, no autonomous activator/machinist workbench/ingenious extruder/etc. No real power generation besides solar panels. Capacitor output scales only from size while TE3 gives multiple storages in single block. The trick is while TE3 and ender io look similar they have unique properties which make them useful even if you are making stuff from other mod. Ender Io have conduit bundles, alloy smelter, some very nice recipes and still desirable.

I don't say its pointless because Its only my opinion, I say its pointless because it does not offer anything, what is objectively better than what RoC already has. Storing power is same, transiting power is even worse. There are no new generators and no new machines. Every setup you can make with ElC you can also make with RoC, and it gonna be cheaper, easier and take far less space. Now for the last time, what is ElC good for?
There is no objectivity in this claim. For instance, making adaptable power transmission systems is extremely hard with RoC but rather easy in ElectriCraft. Neither is as easy as TE3 in this, but the hurdle is not high - just understand how Electricraft works. If ElectriCraft had a cover/facade mechanic I might even use it in preference to TE3's because it's more interesting. Only EnderIO tops it all with its bundled conduits.
 

Padfoote

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Please educate yourself.

And this is opinion, because I've yet to hear what exactly it offers and how that contradict my points.

Alright, let me put this in a manner that may get across easier:
it does not offer anything, what is objectively better than what RoC already has.

Really? Because several people have stated that they feel it does long distance power transfer better than RotaryCraft, which is an opinion that is the exact opposite of yours.
There are no new generators and no new machines. Every setup you can make with ElC you can also make with RoC, and it gonna be cheaper, easier and take far less space.

This implies that a mod is useless if it does not add new generators or machines, which is a false statement. The opinion part in this is that you claim everything will be cheaper with RotaryCraft, yet I would rather run a few cheap cables over running shafts and placing engines everywhere. Again, difference in opinion. The claim that RotaryCraft can do everything for cheaper and "easier" than ElectriCraft can be also used to say that TE3 is a "better" mod than RotaryCraft, because it does ore processing cheaper than RotaryCraft. Again, this is an opinion.

So again, you are attempting to pass your opinions off as a fact.
 

namae

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Really? Because several people have stated that they feel it does long distance power transfer better than RotaryCraft, which is an opinion that is the exact opposite of yours.
Where did I ever stated that was what I feel? I never said there's something I feel, only that something is better or worse clearly or not.
This implies that a mod is useless if it does not add new generators or machines, which is a false statement.
Taking sentences out of context is not a good way to build argument, mind you.
yet I would rather run a few cheap cables over running shafts and placing engines everywhere
And you would be placing resistors and motors everywhere. Not much difference in all honesty.
RotaryCraft can do everything for cheaper and "easier" than ElectriCraft can be also used to say that TE3 is a "better" mod than RotaryCraft, because it does ore processing cheaper than RotaryCraft. Again, this is an opinion.
If you can't see difference between x2 ore procession and x3-5 then I'm sorry.
Fine-control power distribution over distance.

I have some gripes over ElC myself (I think I was one of the most vocal complainers about the old variable-input lag issue ^^; ) but I understand its purpose; shaft junctions limit you to fixed ratios, and buses limit distance. ElC overcomes these two limitations to a degree by allowing you to distribute power at a finer level with resistors over large distances.
Now finely a worthy answer. Yes, I can agree, this is the only thing which is undeniably better in ElC. There's one problem though, power teleportation (tesseracts) usually wins over insanely long ugly cables (of any mod). In case I'll ever find myself in situation I have to transport energy over huge distance I'll go for magnetostatics. That said my disappointment is because I expected far more use from ElC.
 

midi_sec

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Where did I ever stated that was what I feel? I never said there's something I feel, only that something is better or worse clearly or not.

Taking sentences out of context is not a good way to build argument, mind you.
And you would be placing resistors and motors everywhere. Not much difference in all honesty.
If you can't see difference between x2 ore procession and x3-5 then I'm sorry.

Now finely a worthy answer. Yes, I can agree, this is the only thing which is undeniably better in ElC. There's one problem though, power teleportation (tesseracts) usually wins over insanely long ugly cables (of any mod). In case I'll ever find myself in situation I have to transport energy over huge distance I'll go for magnetostatics. That said my disappointment is because I expected far more use from ElC.

If you haven't figured out how/why to use ElC yet, you probably don't produce or use enough power.

End of.
 

RavynousHunter

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Then I have no idea what is wrong. What function is ItemArmor.func_78044_b(I)I ?
I'm guessing that its ItemArmor.getArmorMaterial(), going by what I found when I searched "func_78044_b" here. Its the only method inside ItemArmor that returns ArmorMaterial, which is what I think is the return type that particular line is implying.

Its odd, but going thru gradle's caches, I found, buried rather deep, FMLRenderAccessLibrary.java...except, its inside Minecraft's source folder, and not Forge's source folders, and I think that's what Forge is screaming at me about when I try to load inside the IDE. Quite queer, since Forge itself put it the hell in there. Look in (for build 1208 of Forge): C:\Users\[Your Username]\.gradle\caches\minecraft\net\minecraftforge\forge\1.7.10-10.13.0.1208\unpacked\src\main\java\net\minecraft\src
 
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