Mod Feedback [By Request] RotaryCraft Suggestions

[Scottly318]

Cellular can you please give me an example of what your suggestion is trying to accomplish? I've reread all you've tried to explain and I can't get what you're suggestion is trying to accomplish

 

[Rubyheart]

From the last post it looks like just afterburner upgrades, to turn fuel into more power without more engines.

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[Rubyheart]

Also in regards to being the player. Please provide a morally acceptable reason for why it's not the people's game. This is not an attack, I would prefer an answer that doesn't say something like "oh, good way to get reika to ignore you" for once.

Did you make the mod?

Did you make the game?

Did you pay for the mod?

Did you pay for the time and effort needed to learn not only Java, but also Mojang's backward way of implementing it in order to mod?

Modders spend their own time and resources to mod, out of the kindness of their own hearts. They owe you nothing, and they have complete control over everything that happens in the mod.

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[Braidedheadman]

Also in regards to being the player. Please provide a morally acceptable reason for why it's not the people's game.

Because the player(s) had no hand in its creation.

 

[Pyure]

Also in regards to being the player. Please provide a morally acceptable reason for why it's not the people's game.

When I develop games (or mods), I'm not doing it for "the people". I'm doing it because there's something in the game missing for me, and I want to add it.

At this point, I've now developed a more enjoyable experience for me. If the minecraft community is fortunate, I decide to share it with everyone else.

Now: I can happily listen to what everyone has to say about my work. Maybe people have some suggestions I didn't consider, and I may be eager to implement those decisions as I see fit. But ultimately, its still my own experience I'm seeking to improve. Since I've now shared my own sweat and tears with the world (and if you've ever lost a project to hard drive crash you know this isn't a metaphor), why should I seek to ruin my experience to please people who aren't satisfied with the gift?

By way of analogy: I've given you a fancy red car, but if I don't give you what you really want, a fancy blue car, I'm not doing my part for the people.

Its not the people's game because they've done nothing to earn it. They were offered a gift and if they're not satisfied with it, they can buy their own fancy car and move on.

BTW: I have a history of constantly bothering Reika for things. He has massive blindspots in game design. And frankly I can rarely stand chatting with him for more than two minutes. But I never, ever phrase my suggestions in the form of entitlement.

 

[keybounce]

Reika has an intended play/progression. He is trying to maintain "balance", in some sense, without contributing to either number creep or power creep.

The idea of "Put the changes in a config file" is normally a bad thing. First, most people don't use config files; second, it just takes one popular modpack to config something a certain way, and not document that this is different; now this is the expected, "normal" behavior. Going back to the "Real" way becomes "Why did you make this horrible nerf"?

Here's a question: Do you demand that Microsoft change how the base vanilla game behaves because you want it to be different? Do you demand that Nintendo eliminate "Nintendo Hard" difficulty levels? Do you demand that ID software make changes to the newest DOOM? Do you demand changes from Steam/Valve? Heck, do you demand release of part 3 of anything from Steam?

No? Ok, why demand that Reika change to suit you?

===

Although, this might be doable actually. Limiting it to only working with finite fluids, although you'd want to add a finite fluid to rotarycraft to be used, but that solves the issue in a large part considering those actually flow down and spread. There's no infinitely flowing source blocks.

There is a "flowing water" minecraft mod. It works well enough in single player, and it technically works on a server (but I do not recommend it yet). It destroys ChromaticCraft underwater temples, unfortunately.

I've talked with Reika about adding support for it to the RotaryCraft hydro's, and he's said that he can't really do it without making it too easy for people to abuse. He can't detect if water is finite, and if there's a config setting to let any water flow activate them, then it's even easier. In fact, the Hydro's really use lubricant, not water, as their fuel.

(I *did* finally come up with a way to make my flowing water work well enough, but at the cost of breaking how things are represented internally, and breaking an invariant that's all over my code... so about a weekend just for this one thing. And I can't even do that before fixing the "save state across chunk save/load" issue that currently relies on block metadata to make an approximation work-around).

Fixing the temples is a different beast. The easiest way would be to put a "staircase" on the entrances, as right now they rely on a single-block depression to stop vanilla water flow. That would make the "L"'s longer, which apparently makes them harder to place/rarer, and got a "No" response. Lowering the bottom floor down, to make the entrance have room to fit the staircase alters the down staircase and that affects the lower level too much. So that leaves being able to detect the entrance somehow and not let the water flow in.

 

[Reika]

Also in regards to being the player. Please provide a morally acceptable reason for why it's not the people's game. This is not an attack, I would prefer an answer that doesn't say something like "oh, good way to get reika to ignore you" for once. Also, don't try to respond with a question about why I think the player has the say because that leads to fallacy.

I will quote you this:

The vast majority of the modded MC player community "gets" that FTB and the MC modding community in general is comprised of volunteers whose primary motivation is a "labor of love".... However, it still bugs me that some people apparently don't "get it" and they carry that self-righteous "consumer is king" mindset with them without pausing to appreciate that - besides the base MC itself from Mojang - the *vast* majority of their modded MC experience is provide gratis, built on goodwill and a belief in giving.

Do you seriously believe that the developers are obligated to design their content in whatever way best pleases you? Putting aside how selfish it is to elevate your own gameplay over everyone else - after all, your desires need not align with those of a million other players - do you not see the problem with telling a developer - an unpaid one at that - that they are not the arbiter of the content they create? What separates you from these?

"Just because you are updating your mod to a new version of Minecraft does not mean you can expect to have freedom to make changes without answering to the fans in some way or another...I don't have to use an ignorant mod made by an ignorant author either. It only stands to reason a favorable opinion = more money."

"Stop being such a special snowflake and make the mod the way the community wants. You work for us."

"I want to propose a boycott of ic2 at least until they pull their heads out of their asses"


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He has massive blindspots in game design. And frankly I can rarely stand chatting with him for more than two minutes.

...Elaborate?

 

[Pyure]

...Elaborate?

Nothing we haven't discussed before. Not resurrecting old arguments.

 

[Cellular]

To all of you, don't go assuming I was suggesting anything. I mentioned it's not an attack, just a question. Thank you for the answers. I'm not demanding him to do anything because I'm the one playing, I'm only lightly suggesting that we're kind of where they end up at, and so our say is important but not dominant.

 

[Cellular]

Also, you all seem to have exploded at that question.. must be a soft spot XD

And for those who questioned that suggestion I have no idea if it's too hard to understand or if you're not reading xD. Scotty.. and rubyheart

It's not an afterburner upgrade...

 

[Rubyheart]

You said you want teired upgrades to be able to feed more fuel into an engine to make more power. Explain how that is different from the current afterburner upgrade.

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[Pyure]

To all of you, don't go assuming I was suggesting anything. I mentioned it's not an attack, just a question.

Dude, not all questions are equal.

At the far end of the spectrum are questions like "Please provide me a morally acceptable reason why I should treat black and white people equally."

Demanding why someone should feel obligated to improve their charity towards you drifts towards that end of the spectrum.


Also, I'm not trying to give you a hard time. I just don't think you considered it in this light yet.

 

[Cellular]

Dude, not all questions are equal.

At the far end of the spectrum are questions like "Please provide me a morally acceptable reason why I should treat black and white people equally."

Demanding why someone should feel obligated to improve their charity towards you drifts towards that end of the spectrum.


Also, I'm not trying to give you a hard time. I just don't think you considered it in this light yet.

the reason I put it that way was to prevent any selfish reasons from intruding, you're fine. like I said I was just asking because I have a few suspicions about some things.

 

[Cellular]

You said you want teired upgrades to be able to feed more fuel into an engine to make more power. Explain how that is different from the current afterburner upgrade.

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XD, yea you haven't read...

 

[Rubyheart]

If the source is in the dimension everything in terms of energy stays the same except it's really happening at a faster rate than the world around it. Thus the thing affected would be the fuel input to the power source inside the dimension. Knowing this the advantage is a speed boost from excess fuel instead of making multiple engines. Sure, the gas turbine or some other high tier way of power might be better, but this is an end game way of using things like performance engines to get something done. Remember the upgrades needed prevent early game acceleration (a detail nobody seems to read).

I read just fine. More fuel in, more power out, less total engines.

Afterburner upgrade.

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[Scottly318]

I ask for an example because to me your idea is as clear as mud. First you ask for project E compatibility, then you go on about a separate dimension that speeds things up but also costs more. I fail to see how you're being clear. I truly do want to understand what you're getting at. But after several rereads I still don't understand. Please enlighten me as to your idea/logic

 

[keybounce]

At the far end of the spectrum are questions like "Please provide me a morally acceptable reason why I should treat black and white people equally."

This is actually an easy one.

You are talking about "morality"; that means a religious view of some kind. OK, I belong to a religion that says, "All people are equal in the eyes of the universe". So, I treat all people equally.
Now, if you want to treat some people differently, not based on their actions, but on something else -- say the behaviors of their ancestors three generations ago (*), or their color -- then you must believe in some religion that says "(God) does not treat all people equally", for your definition of God. So, I ask you, why should you be treated better than that other group? How would you feel if Blacks were given benefits over Whites?

Do not be quick to deal out injustice unless you are willing to receive the bad end of the injustice yourself.

(*): Judaism actually teaches that the sins of the father shall weigh on the family for 10 generations. I consider this one of the worst aspects of this religion. But then, conservative jews don't consider me a jew either.

===

Making mods is not easy. Dealing with badly documented, or incorrectly documented, or just plain "not documented, you won't even know it's there until you read obfuscated code" stuff is a royal pain. It doesn't help that any 1.7.10 specific docs are gone from the forge docs site, or that the forge docs site is horribly incomplete, etc. You are basically expected to spend a great deal of time reading the forge source, and the vanilla minecraft source that forge modifies, because the Forge people seem to feel that lacking sufficient documentation as a barrier to entry is a good thing.

Making mods work with other mods is not easy. Badly defined dictionaries (Ore, Biome, probably others that I don't know about) is just the first issue; different mods having different ideas about difficulty and scale is another. (RF power vs every other power). It really doesn't help that Forge now has the RF power system "built-in" -- even saying that it doesn't really force people to use RF, it's just forge helping by providing a way to track a number, and you can (somehow, I did not understand this part) actually use the API to track many different numbers so it doesn't have to be just RF power (would be nice if they provided a code sample, but no, that would be docs, figure it out yourself or don't write a mod).

Here's a question: Do you demand that Microsoft change how the base vanilla game behaves because you want it to be different? Do you demand that Nintendo eliminate "Nintendo Hard" difficulty levels? Do you demand that ID software make changes to the newest DOOM? Do you demand changes from Steam/Valve? Heck, do you demand release of part 3 of anything from Steam?

No? Ok, why demand that Reika change to suit you?

I still wait for anyone to give an answer to this. "Customer is king" is as true as cake.

 

[Rubyheart]

But the cake is.... ooohh, I see what you did there.

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[mathwiz617]

What are Reika's opinions on adding new (more expensive) recipes for simple Rotarycraft and Chromaticraft items, such as HSLA steel or crystallized stone? I was thinking of adding an "HSLA catalyst", made from gunpowder, sand, and coal coke, that can be used with regular steel in an alloy smelter to make HSLA steel, as well as a fluid transposer method of turning one obsidian and one crystal fragment worth of molten potion crystal into crystallized stone.

These would be simpler methods of getting these base items, yet more expensive, giving players easy access to basic machines, but encouraging them to look into the regular, more efficient ways of doing things. I'm thinking of doing something like IE:E, just with some lesser-used mods, and would like to center progression around the Reika mod suite.

 

[Xavion]

As a modpack thing? Still want to avoid breaking internal RoC progression, but some of those could be core recipes so not sure how viable changing them is. I know Industrial Gigant radically changed how you get HSLA, it integrates with GT and while RoC is mostly unchanged HSLA gets pretty huge ones. Made in the GT EBF and involves creating a HSLA blend item, made by combining various dusts from other materials.

So basically, it's not implausible at all for it to be doable, but it depends on what you actually want to do.