Mod Feedback [By Request] RotaryCraft Suggestions

[Rubyheart]

"Let's keep realism in mind..... oh hey, different dimension where time is warped."

Dude just stop.

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[Cellular]

"Let's keep realism in mind..... oh hey, different dimension where time is warped."

Dude just stop.

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Are you retarded? Different dimensions are anything but unrealistic. We also literally use materials from another dimension to make jet fuel, wtf is going through your head? He literally has a magic mod too that's compatible with his other mods... There are many breaks from realism throughout RC as well.

 

[Pyure]

Are you retarded? Different dimensions are anything but unrealistic. We literally use materials from another dimension to make jet fuel, wtf is going through your head? He literally has a magic mod too that's compatible with his other mods...

Cellular, this is becoming flagable. Find a place of calm.

Yes, making serious efforts at realism in mods is a silly effort sometimes. A mod author reserves the right to draw their own line on what non-realistic items they'll accept and not accept.

To use rotarycraft as an example: it uses Hydro-electric generators that function via perpetual motion (via a single bucket of water forever). Its not realistic. But its a compromise you make as a programmer to find a working place between realistic simulation and actual functioning systems.

Realism in Minecraftia is different than realism on earth and we just accept that and move on.

 

[Cellular]

Cellular, this is becoming flagable. Find a place of calm.

Yes, making serious efforts at realism in mods is a silly effort sometimes. A mod author reserves the right to draw their own line on what non-realistic items they'll accept and not accept.

To use rotarycraft as an example: it uses Hydro-electric generators that function via perpetual motion (via a single bucket of water forever). Its not realistic. But its a compromise you make as a programmer to find a working place between realistic simulation and actual functioning systems.

Realism in Minecraftia is different than realism on earth and we just accept that and move on.

Did you read what I had put in earlier? I'm over that. I made a post about fixing possible exploits to project E and this person decides to try to say I'm going against my favor for realism. Look back a ways.

 

[Scottly318]

Either way your language is what pyure was referring to in regards to flagable. But I digress.

To your original premise... not having compatibility does solve exploits.

 

[Cellular]

Either way your language is what pyure was referring to in regards to flagable. But I digress.

To your original premise... not having compatibility does solve exploits.

Not the premise I put in a while ago. I suggested an upgrade system that didn't seriously diminish its worth.

 

[Scottly318]

It still solves the possibility of exploits. Any compatibly with project E or any thing like it risks depreciating the progression that reika wants in his mod. Your notion of a dimensional system does that by allowing a player to stay at a low amount of tech and gain similar results to higher tech. Feel free to correct me. But that's how I read the suggestion you posed.

 

[Xavion]

To use rotarycraft as an example: it uses Hydro-electric generators that function via perpetual motion (via a single bucket of water forever). Its not realistic. But its a compromise you make as a programmer to find a working place between realistic simulation and actual functioning systems.

Although, this might be doable actually. Limiting it to only working with finite fluids, although you'd want to add a finite fluid to rotarycraft to be used, but that solves the issue in a large part considering those actually flow down and spread. There's no infinitely flowing source blocks.

 

[Pyure]

Although, this might be doable actually. Limiting it to only working with finite fluids, although you'd want to add a finite fluid to rotarycraft to be used, but that solves the issue in a large part considering those actually flow down and spread. There's no infinitely flowing source blocks.

*I* could do it. But its the kind of problem that doesn't really beg to be solved.

 

[Reika]

However I do not agree that validity of advice depends on what version you're running... And you seem to have made the claim that I don't matter if I don't update. Not all the elders of today are up to date, but they still offer wisdom.

If someone is using an old version, any ideas they may have on how the mod is balanced, or what is and is not enjoyable, or even what is possible and what is not may well be incorrect. Incorrect data means incorrect (or at least worthless) conclusions. And thus advice, complaints, or similar. And yes, I do summarily ignore even the "elders" if they are trying to provide current input based on an old version (openly stating "I have not used in X months, may no longer be true" helps, though I tend to still ignore it). Indeed, given that doing so irritates me to no end - as you have no doubt gathered - I have likely made this abundantly clear at some point in the (possibly recent) past. I know I have done the same for people giving input based on modified/nonstandard versions/configurations of the mods (Pyure might remember the Monster "HSLA as ingotSteel" thing, for example).

In regards to the fixes there are a few things I would like to go over as there is consideration to be done. I hold the opinion that your current system for mod power bridging had a good idea to start, but then went rotten as you went overboard with the diminishing return. Your idea to introduce expensive upgrades only available once RC was nearly complete was a good one, but for some reason you insist on making us use big quantities of liquid nitrogen and power like RF and EU because of the severe efficiency loss. If we are at end game for RC there is no sense in "acceleration" as you are already at the end, and acceleration was prevented by the upgrades containing tungsten; so why make us suffer so much to get reasonable power from other sources once we have the materials to bridge? If you're at end game you have plenty of jet fuel and a gas turbine is no problem, so why make the same amount of power through something like EU severely expensive in comparison to using the gas turbine? I speculate that you much prefer that we use the traditional methods you introduced (turbine), this reveals to me that you might have a more personal issue with other mods. This might be true or not true at all, if it is true I guess I would understand as I'm told you struggle to stay at the top as I imagine every mod Dev does. Anyways, for the fix itself...

When did you start playing with RC? Those nerfs were added gradually over the course of a year and a half, always in response to people gravitating towards those generators at the expense of the legitimate ones.

Pre-v14 (MC 1.6), they had fully-configurable torque and speed, and had no limits on when you could craft them or what their output limits were (up to 65MW).
In response to literally everyone using nothing else, In v14, I locked the torque to 2048 Nm and reduced the power limit to 16MW.
This did not substantially reduce the number of people trying to use them exclusively, so in v16 I further nerfed them, capping the power at 8MW(?).
No change again, so in v20 I introduced the tiering system to make them unusable to skip the techtree.
This helped, but people still spawned them in for creative (ignoring even the creative industrial coil, also added in v16!), and a worryingly large number of people started asking questions like "how do I even generate power now". Additionally, once you did complete the techtree, people started spamming magnetostatics once again.
So in v25z I added a lubricant requirement, so as to add continuous cost.
Lubricant proved too cheap to matter, so in v3 (1.7.10) I changed that to LN2 and added the thermal mechanic. I also tweaked the tiering to make the higher tiers more difficult.
This worked almost as well as intended, but there were still many cases of people using them as their primary generation mechanic, so I added the tiered losses in v4 or v5.

The converter engines were never intended to be a viable replacement for actual power generation. They were exclusively intended as either A) a way of transporting RC power interdimensionally (the portal and rift mechanics are newer) or B) augmenting existing supply with something you have an excess of. In both cases, the loss and any logistics required are inconsequential.

What I want to focus on is the compatibility in regards to items like the watch of flowing time. If you're not familiar with this handy object, it gives bonus ticks to nearby machines which produces a speed boost. You could add components that you insert into machines in order to make them affected by this watch, and the upgrades could be made semi-expensive to super expensive depending on what you see fit. You could keep the realism in mind here too in regards to thermodynamics:

A machine runs faster in a sped up dimension

Though the machine is in a faster dimension, it consumes or produces the same amount of energy at a faster rate (otherwise you disobey the first law)

Knowing this, a running machine, though faster, would consume energy faster because of its speed increase in the same way an engine could output more power but increase fuel intake. Keep in mind efficiency loss is not relevant here because you're changing time itself and not the actual machine physics. So I would say make the watch compatible and realistic in the sense of energy conservation. The end game like upgrades prevent early acceleration like I explained earlier and can act as a way to have fun while you're grinding out the very last of progression.

I assume these acceleration effects have an AoE, even if that AoE is an entire dimension. What happens when the power source (engine or otherwise) is not in the AoE while the machine is? You accelerate a machine and get 2x or 6x or 2387953487450946598654x as much effective energy for the same unit of fuel. And that is an exploit. And that is not even the exploit that most bothers me: The fact is, if a player wants to process something faster, they are forced (or at least very strongly encouraged) to put more power into that processing machine. Being able to simply accelerate it - regardless of any one-time cost - makes that completely unnecessary.

 

[Plasmasnake]

Pre-v14 (MC 1.6), they had fully-configurable torque and speed, and had no limits on when you could craft them or what their output limits were (up to 65MW).
In response to literally everyone using nothing else, In v14, I locked the torque to 2048 Nm and reduced the power limit to 16MW.
This did not substantially reduce the number of people trying to use them exclusively, so in v16 I further nerfed them, capping the power at 8MW(?).
No change again, so in v20 I introduced the tiering system to make them unusable to skip the techtree.
This helped, but people still spawned them in for creative (ignoring even the creative industrial coil, also added in v16!), and a worryingly large number of people started asking questions like "how do I even generate power now". Additionally, once you did complete the techtree, people started spamming magnetostatics once again.
So in v25z I added a lubricant requirement, so as to add continuous cost.
Lubricant proved too cheap to matter, so in v3 (1.7.10) I changed that to LN2 and added the thermal mechanic. I also tweaked the tiering to make the higher tiers more difficult.
This worked almost as well as intended, but there were still many cases of people using them as their primary generation mechanic, so I added the tiered losses in v4 or v5.

The converter engines were never intended to be a viable replacement for actual power generation. They were exclusively intended as either A) a way of transporting RC power interdimensionally (the portal and rift mechanics are newer) or B) augmenting existing supply with something you have an excess of. In both cases, the loss and any logistics required are inconsequential.

Isn't the change were you raised the RF:W ratio the most effective change towards meeting your design intentions? I remember when I got crazy into RoC during v3 I used a big reactor to provide the RF for a decent chunk of my magnetostatics. Ever since then though the magnetostatics require far too much RF for any other RF generator other than something from your mods. I felt soft-forced to generate all that RF I want to use in a Magnetostatic by converting it from a turbine or a RoC engine.

 

[Cellular]

It still solves the possibility of exploits. Any compatibly with project E or any thing like it risks depreciating the progression that reika wants in his mod. Your notion of a dimensional system does that by allowing a player to stay at a low amount of tech and gain similar results to higher tech. Feel free to correct me. But that's how I read the suggestion you posed.

I'm beginnning to think nobody is reading what I put at all... The upgrades require a high tech tier. Christ, how is that advancing the mod faster?

[EDIT]

Nevermind this, I suppose what your'e saying is that he would rather blacklist things because he wouldn't enjoy having to work on the fixes. But then again, we're the players. Playing the game. Having the fun, so why rob us of it?

 

[Cellular]

If someone is using an old version, any ideas they may have on how the mod is balanced, or what is and is not enjoyable, or even what is possible and what is not may well be incorrect. Incorrect data means incorrect (or at least worthless) conclusions. And thus advice, complaints, or similar. And yes, I do summarily ignore even the "elders" if they are trying to provide current input based on an old version (openly stating "I have not used in X months, may no longer be true" helps, though I tend to still ignore it). Indeed, given that doing so irritates me to no end - as you have no doubt gathered - I have likely made this abundantly clear at some point in the (possibly recent) past. I know I have done the same for people giving input based on modified/nonstandard versions/configurations of the mods (Pyure might remember the Monster "HSLA as ingotSteel" thing, for example).


When did you start playing with RC? Those nerfs were added gradually over the course of a year and a half, always in response to people gravitating towards those generators at the expense of the legitimate ones.

Pre-v14 (MC 1.6), they had fully-configurable torque and speed, and had no limits on when you could craft them or what their output limits were (up to 65MW).
In response to literally everyone using nothing else, In v14, I locked the torque to 2048 Nm and reduced the power limit to 16MW.
This did not substantially reduce the number of people trying to use them exclusively, so in v16 I further nerfed them, capping the power at 8MW(?).
No change again, so in v20 I introduced the tiering system to make them unusable to skip the techtree.
This helped, but people still spawned them in for creative (ignoring even the creative industrial coil, also added in v16!), and a worryingly large number of people started asking questions like "how do I even generate power now". Additionally, once you did complete the techtree, people started spamming magnetostatics once again.
So in v25z I added a lubricant requirement, so as to add continuous cost.
Lubricant proved too cheap to matter, so in v3 (1.7.10) I changed that to LN2 and added the thermal mechanic. I also tweaked the tiering to make the higher tiers more difficult.
This worked almost as well as intended, but there were still many cases of people using them as their primary generation mechanic, so I added the tiered losses in v4 or v5.

The converter engines were never intended to be a viable replacement for actual power generation. They were exclusively intended as either A) a way of transporting RC power interdimensionally (the portal and rift mechanics are newer) or B) augmenting existing supply with something you have an excess of. In both cases, the loss and any logistics required are inconsequential.



I assume these acceleration effects have an AoE, even if that AoE is an entire dimension. What happens when the power source (engine or otherwise) is not in the AoE while the machine is? You accelerate a machine and get 2x or 6x or 2387953487450946598654x as much effective energy for the same unit of fuel. And that is an exploit. And that is not even the exploit that most bothers me: The fact is, if a player wants to process something faster, they are forced (or at least very strongly encouraged) to put more power into that processing machine. Being able to simply accelerate it - regardless of any one-time cost - makes that completely unnecessary.

Ok, I understand better the statement in regards to advice while using outdated versions.

I started playing with version 12.

Didn't know using the engines was such a widespread thing, but I ask why is it a huge issue? Do you want them to use exclusively things from your mod no matter what tech tier?

The dimension premise has a quick answer I forgot to add, remember what I said about thermodynamics. If a machine is in a time zone that lets it run faster, an engine outside the time zone can't keep up. An engine by itself in the time zone would create excess power but would consume resources faster. Remember too that the upgrades required to make the engines and machines time zone compatible are to be very expensive, but with no efficiency reduction.

 

[mathwiz617]

The dimension premise has a quick answer I forgot to add, remember what I said about thermodynamics. If a machine is in a time zone that lets it run faster, an engine outside the time zone can't keep up. An engine by itself in the time zone would create excess power but would consume resources faster. Remember too that the upgrades required to make the engines and machines time zone compatible are to be very expensive, but with no efficiency reduction.

The problem with that is that RotaryCraft power is not stored in a machine, but rather the machine checks the attached shaft, follows down the line to the engine(s), and sees how much power they are producing, IIRC. This is a constant process; the only way to store shaft power is in an industrial coil. (Reika, feel free to correct me on this.)

Take those with Chromaticraft into the picture, and you might be able to see the problem. The engine could be in the overworld, producing power and using fuel at the normal rate. Then, this is world-rifted into the time-accelerated dimension, where it powers a machine at... let's say 16x the normal rate. That means you could run an extractor with 1/16th the fuel.

This would quickly be the overwhelmingly used method: engines in a slow dimension, other machines in an accelerated one. This goes against Reika's intents - you aren't meant to just copy another player's setup.

 

[Cellular]

The problem with that is that RotaryCraft power is not stored in a machine, but rather the machine checks the attached shaft, follows down the line to the engine(s), and sees how much power they are producing, IIRC. This is a constant process; the only way to store shaft power is in an industrial coil. (Reika, feel free to correct me on this.)

Take those with Chromaticraft into the picture, and you might be able to see the problem. The engine could be in the overworld, producing power and using fuel at the normal rate. Then, this is world-rifted into the time-accelerated dimension, where it powers a machine at... let's say 16x the normal rate. That means you could run an extractor with 1/16th the fuel.

This would quickly be the overwhelmingly used method: engines in a slow dimension, other machines in an accelerated one. This goes against Reika's intents - you aren't meant to just copy another player's setup.

your comprehension can't seriously be this bad.... the machine in the WARPED dimension uses SIXTEEN TIMES the power. I should make note that this would be 16 times the torque and speed

 

[Rubyheart]

If the machine is using 16x power.... then just feed it 16x power. No funky dimensions or time warping needed. You can do multiple operations per tick with an extractor if you feed enough power into it.

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[Reika]

Isn't the change were you raised the RF:W ratio the most effective change towards meeting your design intentions? I remember when I got crazy into RoC during v3 I used a big reactor to provide the RF for a decent chunk of my magnetostatics. Ever since then though the magnetostatics require far too much RF for any other RF generator other than something from your mods. I felt soft-forced to generate all that RF I want to use in a Magnetostatic by converting it from a turbine or a RoC engine.

That change was done because the RF-Watt conversion was based on a power unit (MJ) that no longer exists. I do not deny that the less-favorable new ratio was a boon to my goals - devaluing RF-sourced RC power but leaving intermediary conversion unaffected - and may have helped influence the selection, but that was not why I decided to switch to begin with.

Didn't know using the engines was such a widespread thing, but I ask why is it a huge issue? Do you want them to use exclusively things from your mod no matter what tech tier?

Because - and surely you must realize this, having used it since v14 - RC is extremely strongly progression-gated; indeed, that is its only (intentional) form of balancing. If a player can get later-game-than-intended machinery or power generation, they can similarly produce such items. Would you want a mod where you can get the Railgun, TNT Cannon, or Sonic Borer at the equivalent of the TE3 Induction Smelter or EiO Soul Binder? Or where the bedrock tools, gravel gun, and fireball launcher can be obtained around the time one is making TiC tools (out of something other than wood or stone)? Or the ability to generate 500MRF/t (ReC) around the time you have BC fuel refining?

If the machine is using 16x power.... then just feed it 16x power. No funky dimensions or time warping needed. You can do multiple operations per tick with an extractor if you feed enough power into it.

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Exactly. This defeats the entire purpose of tick acceleration in the first place. Not to mention that there is no way for a machine to know if it is being accelerated.

 

[mathwiz617]

your comprehension can't seriously be this bad.... the machine in the WARPED dimension uses SIXTEEN TIMES the power. I should make note that this would be 16 times the torque and speed

That would actually be 256 times the power. 16x speed * 16x torque. Shaft junctions don't increase speed, just torque. You would need, basically, a gas turbine to power anything that required a steam engine at regular speeds, and a reactor for anything above that.

But let's assume you really meant only 16x power, not 16x speed and 16x torque. Does that mean 4x speed and 4x torque? That sounds like the most likely. Why not just attach two or three additional engines to your machine through shaft junctions and run it through a bedrock gearbox on torque-to-speed mode? That is actually easier, and does not necessitate adding a whole new dimension.

Nevermind this, I suppose what your'e saying is that he would rather blacklist things because he wouldn't enjoy having to work on the fixes. But then again, we're the players. Playing the game. Having the fun, so why rob us of it?

Ah, the old "I'm the end-user, I get to decide what goes into the software" argument. Yeah, that's an easy way to get software writers, such as mod authors, such as Reika, to instantly dislike your attitude. Trust me, Reika has enough people with bad attitudes to deal with.

Let's put it this way: Stay civil, or moderators will get involved. Calling people "retarded" and calling into suspect their comprehension level is... less than ideal. I am a proponent of freedom of expression, but there is a limit to everything.

 

[Cellular]

That would actually be 256 times the power. 16x speed * 16x torque. Shaft junctions don't increase speed, just torque. You would need, basically, a gas turbine to power anything that required a steam engine at regular speeds, and a reactor for anything above that.

But let's assume you really meant only 16x power, not 16x speed and 16x torque. Does that mean 4x speed and 4x torque? That sounds like the most likely. Why not just attach two or three additional engines to your machine through shaft junctions and run it through a bedrock gearbox on torque-to-speed mode? That is actually easier, and does not necessitate adding a whole new dimension.



Ah, the old "I'm the end-user, I get to decide what goes into the software" argument. Yeah, that's an easy way to get software writers, such as mod authors, such as Reika, to instantly dislike your attitude. Trust me, Reika has enough people with bad attitudes to deal with.

Let's put it this way: Stay civil, or moderators will get involved. Calling people "retarded" and calling into suspect their comprehension level is... less than ideal. I am a proponent of freedom of expression, but there is a limit to everything.

That change was done because the RF-Watt conversion was based on a power unit (MJ) that no longer exists. I do not deny that the less-favorable new ratio was a boon to my goals - devaluing RF-sourced RC power but leaving intermediary conversion unaffected - and may have helped influence the selection, but that was not why I decided to switch to begin with.


Because - and surely you must realize this, having used it since v14 - RC is extremely strongly progression-gated; indeed, that is its only (intentional) form of balancing. If a player can get later-game-than-intended machinery or power generation, they can similarly produce such items. Would you want a mod where you can get the Railgun, TNT Cannon, or Sonic Borer at the equivalent of the TE3 Induction Smelter or EiO Soul Binder? Or where the bedrock tools, gravel gun, and fireball launcher can be obtained around the time one is making TiC tools (out of something other than wood or stone)? Or the ability to generate 500MRF/t (ReC) around the time you have BC fuel refining?


Exactly. This defeats the entire purpose of tick acceleration in the first place. Not to mention that there is no way for a machine to know if it is being accelerated.

Mathwiz and reika, on your mentions toward acceleration I'm not sure if you know what I propose to be the ideal situation because I may have made a mistake in the thinking. I did some contemplating and realized energy consumption would only be up for the machine if you were throwing power INTO the dimension. If the source is in the dimension everything in terms of energy stays the same except it's really happening at a faster rate than the world around it. Thus the thing affected would be the fuel input to the power source inside the dimension. Knowing this the advantage is a speed boost from excess fuel instead of making multiple engines. Sure, the gas turbine or some other high tier way of power might be better, but this is an end game way of using things like performance engines to get something done. Remember the upgrades needed prevent early game acceleration (a detail nobody seems to read).

 

[Cellular]

Also in regards to being the player. Please provide a morally acceptable reason for why it's not the people's game. This is not an attack, I would prefer an answer that doesn't say something like "oh, good way to get reika to ignore you" for once. Also, don't try to respond with a question about why I think the player has the say because that leads to fallacy.