Mod Feedback [By Request] RotaryCraft Suggestions

[Pyure]

The issue with a popup is that for the few requests you might divert, you've raised an unimportant alert to all the rest of the players. Imagine if ever mod in Monster had a click through screen because the config was in a non-default state... Annoying the whole user base to try and prevent a few complainers from complaining, which they would do even if they go the screen, is a poor design decision.

Does your concern here also apply to the "biomes o' plenty" popup that only shows up the first time you run a mod?

I 100% agree that one becomes numb to repeated popups, but if I only have to read a thing once, its less bothersome (and more effective)

As to your not running a server, you're still whitelisted on ours should you want to try and survive the hordes while tinkering with reactors. All the latest relevant Reika mods are included!

My wife and I are setting up a base with a dark rusted sci-fi theme, to try and embody a post apocalyptic survival in an overwhelming world of monsters. We already have an incredible fence, moat, and a gateway all made from microblocks, chisel blocks, carpenters blocks, tinker's drawbridges and more. We captured a 9x9 chunk space and are installing turrent, golems, and eventually a Reika force field. It's incredibly hard!

EDIT: Our modpack uses many tech mods, but I had considered at one point calling it Zombies and Rotarycraft.

Your server was too scary Honestly though, some friends and I have our fingers crossed for a few minor RoC policy changes before we explore that route again.

PS: I like that tech-wise your server has a strong RoC focus. Other mods frequently detract from a proper RotaryCraft experience as things stand. And the pve element means you'll get to explore some Reika-toys I've never played with before. Nice!

The spinup time is a function of behavior universal across all engines, and will not be changed.

I will also cut the idle efficiency of the turbine engines, but not of the other engines.

Spinup always felt nicely offset by spindown. I get that its not as "on demand" as some would like, but, well, that's a turbine for you.

On the other hand, I thought the idle efficiency was fine, but I have absolutely zero math to back this up.

 

[Omicron]

I will cut the microturbine fuel cost. The spinup time is a function of behavior universal across all engines, and will not be changed.

I will also cut the idle efficiency of the turbine engines, but not of the other engines.

As for the gravel gun, manual control is too involved, so I will just make it scale with charge.

Understood, and thanks

 

[RavynousHunter]

I urge you to not fall into the trap of pure cost based progression balancing. I know it's the first thought that comes to mind since we deal with resource costs all day long when playing with tech mods, but in practical application, in a world where all resources are infinite, that's never going to work out in the end.

Hey, I'm open to ideas. Nothing here is quite set in stone other than the overall theme and the whole steam pressure thing. Just so long as there aren't a million steps (involving three dozen different machines) to get a single block, I think I'll be, at the very least, amenable to whatever folks might come up with.

Those power numbers look OK except for the first one; 256Nm at steam-engine-level progression is a problem.

Hrm...would cutting it down to 128 Nm, while keeping the same speed be acceptable?

Probably around 12MPa.

Ooh, nice. I spose it could work for the early-to-mid level boilers, but I'd definitely need something tougher to handle even larger amounts of pressure, if need be.

Again, the progression isn't set in stone, what I've proposed is more like a rough, general idea of what you'd be able to do. Also, for folks complaining that the top-tier output doesn't match, or best, top-tier RoC engines, you also have to consider that these things can share pressure and be daisy-chained in a similar way to hydros, except you'll need something like a shaft junction to join their outputs, as per normal. That's not to mention the fact that these boilers will be outputting a good deal of pressure at the higher tiers, so you'll be able to run multiple engines off a single, high-pressure boiler setup.

 

[1M Industries]

I'm amazed that anyone would make a posting without doing some research (reading documentation, internet and forum searches, etc). Unfortunately I'm destined to stay amazed and surprised because the evidence clearly demonstrates otherwise.

The issue with a popup is that for the few requests you might divert, you've raised an unimportant alert to all the rest of the players. Imagine if ever mod in Monster had a click through screen because the config was in a non-default state... Annoying the whole user base to try and prevent a few complainers from complaining, which they would do even if they go the screen, is a poor design decision.

As to your not running a server, you're still whitelisted on ours should you want to try and survive the hordes while tinkering with reactors. All the latest relevant Reika mods are included!

My wife and I are setting up a base with a dark rusted sci-fi theme, to try and embody a post apocalyptic survival in an overwhelming world of monsters. We already have an incredible fence, moat, and a gateway all made from microblocks, chisel blocks, carpenters blocks, tinker's drawbridges and more. We captured a 9x9 chunk space and are installing turrent, golems, and eventually a Reika force field. It's incredibly hard!

EDIT: Our modpack uses many tech mods, but I had considered at one point calling it Zombies and Rotarycraft.

EDIT2: My first paragraph is solely about those people who spam the MC forums with requests for support that are incomplete, already solved, inane, etc. No offense meant to our noble friend Pyure.

Could I try your server? It sounds like a lot of fun. I am really interested in the exact modpack topics that that pack covers, and it sounds right up my alley.

 

[DriftinFool]

I will cut the microturbine fuel cost. The spinup time is a function of behavior universal across all engines, and will not be changed.

I will also cut the idle efficiency of the turbine engines, but not of the other engines.

As for the gravel gun, manual control is too involved, so I will just make it scale with charge.

This should be posted on your site for "How to handle suggestions and expected responses". A completely logical suggestion and a fast response by you. As much as I like RoC itself, your interaction with the community makes me love the mod even more. I truly wish more mod makers were as in touch as you are. Thank you for all your hard work.

 

[Demosthenex]

Reika does indeed rock.

Stupid question: Is there a RoC way to shear leaves?

 

[Padfoote]

Reika does indeed rock.

Stupid question: Is there a RoC way to shear leaves?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that bedrock shears don't count for what you want?

 

[Demosthenex]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that bedrock shears don't count for what you want?

The wood cutter didn't appear to take silk...

 

[keybounce]

The borer ... makes that segment of the experience too easy. If I need redstone, diamonds and gold, I just drill down to level 15, plonk down a borer, and wait. I never need to move that borer again. I will get infinite resources. If this is your cup of tea, then this is great and fine. The boring machine is the "best" autominer I've ever encountered, hands down, but it only works for me in packs where resource acquisition itself would be a distraction from the main point of the pack.

Emphasis added.

I had that discussion with Reika before. He is used to using Vanilla ore gen: Uniformly distributed with everything and it's neighbor down at the bottom. He looks at the issue as "I can basically hold down W, move forward and mine, forever and ever, and be boring as bleep". That's like configuring the borer to mine a 1x2 strip, or if you want to say "I'll also mine what i see on the floor/walls/roof", make it 3x4 with corners cut. Now add in "And immune to lava safety concerns", and "I can ignore the caves that occasionally break it up".

Vanilla ore gen.

I don't like, or use, vanilla ore gen. I use COG. And it completely changes things.

But suddenly, guess what? COG is compatible, but now you put the borer at different heights. So you put it at 45 (NB: I have not doubled checked -- that may be off) to mine iron. And it might not find all that much automatically. But it makes an easy to follow tunnel, and you can manually find, and mine, the veins that it locates.

Does it break the borer, or ruin rotarycraft? No. Instead of one borer to get everything, you'll need one for iron, another for gold, and a third for diamond; they'll pick up redstone, lapis, and emerald as a side effect. They'll pick all of these up slowly, but you can manually walk the tunnels that they dig and get lots more with manual effort and work.

Does it balance the borer? I think so.
Does it ruin rotary craft? I don't think so.
Does it ruin Reactor Craft (which needs how many thousands and thousands and thousands ...)? Probably.

Is the boring machine boring? Perhaps a better question: Does it replace a boring section of vanilla with automation? Yes. Are there better ways to deal with vanilla's ore being boring? Yes. But is Rotarycraft balanced against vanilla's large supply plus effectively a need to make the boring machine to get the supply? Yes.

COG provides more than enough ores for normal activity.
Rotarycraft -- so far, to my testing -- seems to be balanced against a lot more iron than normal mining will give.

And, infinite world just means "it'll take a little longer, but it'll still get done".

Does your concern here also apply to the "biomes o' plenty" popup that only shows up the first time you run a mod?

Ick, no, no, NO.

A pop-up that only shows up ONCE will be missed, lost, and not informative at all. I hate those, because I can guarantee that the first time is a testing time, and I'll probably have all sorts of login spam and console spam, and things will get missed.

 

[Reika]

Hrm...would cutting it down to 128 Nm, while keeping the same speed be acceptable?

Better. We would need to work this out once it is more developed.

 

[Pyure]

*snip*

Fun feedback sir. We differ on a few things but I see your points

 

[TomeWyrm]

@Reika I just had a lightbulb moment. It might be a bit of work, but can you present the handbook(s) in a config file and predicate a permission to modify/minetweak your mods on updating the relevant sections in the handbook? As far as I am aware the only parts of your mod we have the capability to mess with are basically crafting steps and item obtainment, correct? Also only for RotaryCraft, ReactorCraft, and ElectriCraft (also ChromatiCraft... you still need to update the section about third party modifications in the OP on MCF, just to let you know).

Do you think that would work or would it be too much of a headache to implement?

I had that discussion with Reika before. He is used to using Vanilla ore gen: Uniformly distributed with everything and it's neighbor down at the bottom. He looks at the issue as "I can basically hold down W, move forward and mine, forever and ever, and be boring as bleep". That's like configuring the borer to mine a 1x2 strip, or if you want to say "I'll also mine what i see on the floor/walls/roof", make it 3x4 with corners cut. Now add in "And immune to lava safety concerns", and "I can ignore the caves that occasionally break it up".

Vanilla ore gen.

I don't like, or use, vanilla ore gen. I use COG. And it completely changes things.

But suddenly, guess what? COG is compatible, but now you put the borer at different heights. So you put it at 45 (NB: I have not doubled checked -- that may be off) to mine iron. And it might not find all that much automatically. But it makes an easy to follow tunnel, and you can manually find, and mine, the veins that it locates.

Does it break the borer, or ruin rotarycraft? No. Instead of one borer to get everything, you'll need one for iron, another for gold, and a third for diamond; they'll pick up redstone, lapis, and emerald as a side effect. They'll pick all of these up slowly, but you can manually walk the tunnels that they dig and get lots more with manual effort and work.

Does it balance the borer? I think so.
Does it ruin rotary craft? I don't think so.
Does it ruin Reactor Craft (which needs how many thousands and thousands and thousands ...)? Probably.

Is the boring machine boring? Perhaps a better question: Does it replace a boring section of vanilla with automation? Yes. Are there better ways to deal with vanilla's ore being boring? Yes. But is Rotarycraft balanced against vanilla's large supply plus effectively a need to make the boring machine to get the supply? Yes.

COG provides more than enough ores for normal activity.
Rotarycraft -- so far, to my testing -- seems to be balanced against a lot more iron than normal mining will give.

And, infinite world just means "it'll take a little longer, but it'll still get done".

I take it you have some level of experience with CoG... does something like the Ender Quarry from Extra Utilities (at large sizes... as far as I'm aware it is as infinitely expandable as you can travel in MC and place down fences) do the same kind of... um... negative thing (sorry it's late again. I should be sleeping and not posting on the forums... but it's INTERESTING DARNIT) as the borer was designed to counter with vanilla? Basically set and nearly completely forget. I have made Ender Quarries that I have never seen complete their assigned area (admittedly I've never had one run for weeks nonstop either).

I've been contemplating using CoG in my pack because I'm sick and freaking tired of vanilla generation. I don't want to play without ATG and COFH_World. Without the ability to move ores around as I see fit and just generally fix the things I consider to be shortcomings with Minecraft's approaches to all kinds of problems.

Speaking of Custom Ore Generation... what's your favored distribution? Vein or Cloud?

-----

To everyone, why not only use the extractor for Iron... and diamonds or iridium or platinum or whatever you end up always scrambling to fix your shortage of? Then use a mere doubler or even (le gasp) just straight cook the ores that you get entirely too many of? Heck I plan on storing my silk-touched ores in DSU's and then having a system to keep X stacks of bars in my system at all times... with X a number determined by me, and the processing that ore goes through also determined by me. So that Nickel I'm only going to ever use a few hundred ingots of will probably be cooked in a furnace, but the iron that I'm going to be using in quantities that could probably make whole chunks of iron blocks (ReC, RoC, IC2... I could probably think of a few more mods that use amounts of iron so high that despite getting upwards of 3 times the iron as compared to other ores, I'm always low on the stuff)

Incidentally, the solution I found for that is in certain crafting components. Like say the pneumatic servo from TE3. I got the idea from Agrarian Skies, full disclosure. Make it with tin, aluminium, or bronze. In the places where it makes sense, give alternate recipes and use 'em (assuming you've got auto-crafting). Machine frames. Things that you expect to use hundreds or thousands of. Or things like the redmetal from Project Red. It allows for different metals to make the alloy at differing efficiencies. Great place to dump aluminum or silver (which I never seem to use for anything, either of them).

 

[RavynousHunter]

Better. We would need to work this out once it is more developed.

I look forward to it!

 

[Reika]

@Reika I just had a lightbulb moment. It might be a bit of work, but can you present the handbook(s) in a config file and predicate a permission to modify/minetweak your mods on updating the relevant sections in the handbook? As far as I am aware the only parts of your mod we have the capability to mess with are basically crafting steps and item obtainment, correct?

I am not sure what you are asking, but here is how the handbook works:

The raw text of the handbook is stored in the RC jar as XML files (in /Reika/RotaryCraft/Resources/), and could theoretically be modified (though some modifications would result in a crash or broken data, see below). This is the way I made them localizable, as the mod is aware of the game's language settings and will load the XML files from the appropriate subfolder (eg /FR/) if necessary and possible, defaulting to the English files if not.

However, the XML data is sensitive:
For one, the tags determine what category, page, and "subpage" the data is mapped to. Get this wrong and the results will vary from incorrect placement to an immediate crash.
Second, the entire content of the string is put through String.format() to insert numerical data from code references, to allow automatic flexibility. This then means that "%" must be used with extreme care and that you must never either remove, add, or rearrange the %d and %f placeholders.
Third, some additional data is appended, like mod dependencies for interaction machines or item/recipe lists.
Fourth, some data is calculated in-code, so things like machine operation times, "machine tiers", and ComputerCraft integration cannot be customized.

Sample entry:

<machines>
  <blastfurnace>
     <desc>
       The blast furnace is the main way to make steel. Simply supply carbon (in the form of coal or coke) at the left, gunpowder at the bottom-left, sand in the top-left, and fill any or all of the middle nine slots with iron ingots. Heat the machine to %dC to start the alloying process. The machine will operate more efficiently with coke and with more slots full of iron. The coal is not fuel - an external heat source is required. This machine is also used to make bedrock ingots. To make that, put 4 bedrock dust in the left, one steel ingot in the top-left of the grid, and heat the machine to %dC.
     </desc>
     <note>
       Steel Requirements: Coal/coke in left slot, gunpowder in bottom-left, sand in top-left, iron in middle slots

       Bonuses: Chance increases as the number of filled slots rises, max 50 percent
       Max bonus size: Increases as the number of filled slots rises, max 100 percent

       XP per steel ingot: %.2f
     </note>
   </blastfurnace>
</machines>

Gui Class:
https://github.com/ReikaKalseki/RotaryCraft/blob/master/GUIs/GuiHandbook.java

Loader:
https://github.com/ReikaKalseki/RotaryCraft/blob/master/Auxiliary/RotaryDescriptions.java

Sample XML file:
https://github.com/ReikaKalseki/RotaryCraft/blob/master/Resources/machines.xml

 

[SinisterBro :3]

Not really a suggestion. But i just noticed the Electric generator looks like some sort of train. Without the stands ofcourse.

 

[keybounce]

I take it you have some level of experience with CoG... does something like the Ender Quarry from Extra Utilities (at large sizes... as far as I'm aware it is as infinitely expandable as you can travel in MC and place down fences) do the same kind of... um... negative thing (sorry it's late again. I should be sleeping and not posting on the forums... but it's INTERESTING DARNIT) as the borer was designed to counter with vanilla? Basically set and nearly completely forget. I have made Ender Quarries that I have never seen complete their assigned area (admittedly I've never had one run for weeks nonstop either).

I have never used it, so I cannot comment. However, I suspect that if you can locate a cloud, it should work wonders at mining the cloud.

I've been contemplating using CoG in my pack because I'm sick and freaking tired of vanilla generation. I don't want to play without ATG and COFH_World. Without the ability to move ores around as I see fit and just generally fix the things I consider to be shortcomings with Minecraft's approaches to all kinds of problems.

ATG support exists in COG (there's a number of things you can do with an ATG gen world that you cannot do in vanilla worlds). COFHWorld, ... I lake enough information about. I thought it was responsible for ore population and chunk regen.

Speaking of Custom Ore Generation... what's your favored distribution? Vein or Cloud?

I have not used Clouds often enough to comment; I only use veins in the overworld.

Clouds in the overworld present a serious issue for iron: You have to find a frozen biome. For 1.6.4, that's a doable challenge. For people who say that the stone age is too short / iron too common/easy, that's perfect.

For 1.7.10, see the COG thread -- I'm trying to get information to rebalance, because frozen areas are just too rare.

Mystcraft ages ... clouds can be very interesting. Many worlds can have major ore shortages. Ever get stuck in a world that has zero iron, and no way to make a book binder?

(I've gotten stuck in worlds that cannot make paper at all)

 

[TomeWyrm]

@Reika
NOTE: This is just me explaining my earlier suggestion. I'm not phrasing this with "maybe" and "if you want" because those concepts are implicit in the understanding that this is a suggestion, and not a demand.

Basically stick the XML into the config directory and give it a commented out warning section that includes the stuff from the post you just made.

Then put your permission to minetweak behind you changing the relevant lines and/or pictures in the handbook.

Doing this would also allow us to add more information to the handbook and even give you the files when we did so (without having to use pull requests which, while easy, are still esoteric programmer mumbo-jumbo to most people, even pack makers) if we think we've got neat ideas. Like there are things that I know from tutorials and reading your threads that should probably be included in the handbook... which if I muck with the XML file as I think of those notes, I could eventually give the accumulated "annotated" version to you and maybe make the handbook more user friendly or inclusive.

-------------------------

@keybounce
TFC uses something rather like a cloud distribution for its ores. It makes mining out the entirety of a vein a rather time consuming task... especially with how long it takes to mine out stone and such in TFC. It's pretty easy to get MOST of a vein via relatively easy heuristics (I simply mine out all 6 adjacent blocks to every ore that I mine. It ends up exposing a lot of ore... I'm half tempted to just make a giant empty cube because MUST GET ALL ORE! Though a simple multi-level spiral mine would accomplish the same goal and use a LOT less durability)

At least veins give you the rarity of finding an ore with manual mining, and then a relatively easy time of getting the however-many-it-is ore blocks.

Incidentally what the Thermal Expansion's coremod's world generation section lets you do is... well... here's the default config file for it in 1.7.10.

Spoiler

{
"copper": {
"template": "uniform",
"block": "ThermalFoundation:Ore",
"clusterSize": 8,
"numClusters": 10,
"minHeight": 40,
"maxHeight": 75,
"retrogen": "true",
"biomeRestriction": "none",
"biomes": [
"all"
],
"dimensionRestriction": "blacklist",
"dimensions": [
-1,
1
]
},
"tin": {
"template": "uniform",
"block": {"name": "ThermalFoundation:Ore", "metadata": 1},
"clusterSize": 8,
"numClusters": 10,
"minHeight": 20,
"maxHeight": 55,
"retrogen": "true",
"biomeRestriction": "none",
"biomes": [
"all"
],
"dimensionRestriction": "blacklist",
"dimensions": [
-1,
1
]
},
"silver": {
"template": "uniform",
"block": [
{"name": "ThermalFoundation:Ore", "metadata": 2, "weight":80},
{"name": "ThermalFoundation:Ore", "metadata": 3, "weight":20}
],
"clusterSize": 8,
"numClusters": 10,
"minHeight": 5,
"maxHeight": 30,
"retrogen": "true",
"biomeRestriction": "none",
"biomes": [
"all"
],
"dimensionRestriction": "blacklist",
"dimensions": [
-1,
1
]
},
"lead": {
"template": "uniform",
"block": [
{"name": "ThermalFoundation:Ore", "metadata": 3, "weight": 90},
{"name": "ThermalFoundation:Ore", "metadata": 2, "weight": 10}
],
"clusterSize": 8,
"numClusters": 10,
"minHeight": 10,
"maxHeight": 35,
"retrogen": "true",
"biomeRestriction": "none",
"biomes": [
"all"
],
"dimensionRestriction": "blacklist",
"dimensions": [
-1,
1
]
},
"nickel": {
"template": "uniform",
"block": {"name": "ThermalFoundation:Ore", "metadata": 4},
"clusterSize": 4,
"numClusters": 2,
"minHeight": 5,
"maxHeight": 20,
"retrogen": "true",
"biomeRestriction": "none",
"biomes": [
"all"
],
"dimensionRestriction": "blacklist",
"dimensions": [
-1,
1
]
}
}

It also lets you add more things as ore, and I'm pretty sure change the distribution type and number of ore in a vein, but what most people used it for is changing the height at which ores spawn (and occasionally the amounts). Which eliminates the vanilla "drop down to level 10-15 and mine in straight line to infinity".

 

[Reika]

@Reika
NOTE: This is just me explaining my earlier suggestion. I'm not phrasing this with "maybe" and "if you want" because those concepts are implicit in the understanding that this is a suggestion, and not a demand.

Basically stick the XML into the config directory and give it a commented out warning section that includes the stuff from the post you just made.

Then put your permission to minetweak behind you changing the relevant lines and/or pictures in the handbook.

Doing this would also allow us to add more information to the handbook and even give you the files when we did so (without having to use pull requests which, while easy, are still esoteric programmer mumbo-jumbo to most people, even pack makers) if we think we've got neat ideas. Like there are things that I know from tutorials and reading your threads that should probably be included in the handbook... which if I muck with the XML file as I think of those notes, I could eventually give the accumulated "annotated" version to you and maybe make the handbook more user friendly or inclusive.

I still am not particularly clear as to what you are asking. On one hand, it seems you are asking for the ability to modify the handbook content to improve it, something you already have the power and ability to do.
On the other, it sounds like you are suggesting giving people the ability to modify RC behavior based on whether or not they edit the files. This is not going to work, as the ability to modify a text file says little to nothing about the understanding of the implications of the changes you make, and you know as well as I do that such a system would very rapidly lead to numerous online tutorials along the lines of "if you want to edit this, change these lines to this", nullifying any sort of exclusivity.
There are also two technical constraints that preclude this. One, the recipes load far earlier than the handbook data, something that cannot change. This of course means that the contents of the XML files cannot control them. Two, no matter what I did or allowed, Minetweaker would never support the RC worktable; it is a totally different recipe list that Minetweaker does not even know exists, much less has the code to manipulate.

 

[RavynousHunter]

That, and if I remember what I read on Minetweaker's own wiki, there's not going to be any support for any of Reika's mods, not just RotaryCraft and its constituents.

 

[TomeWyrm]

Nope, I'm suggesting you say "if you want to use minetweaker, fix any errors you make in the handbook. Here's the file to do that with, and it contains instructions on how not to screw up."

That, and if I remember what I read on Minetweaker's own wiki, there's not going to be any support for any of Reika's mods, not just RotaryCraft and its constituents.

That would be because Reika specifically says NO MINETWEAKER. If that restriction changes, I'm pretty sure that @joshie and StanH will add RoC tweaking support.

The reason they don't have any special support for all the other ones is that they don't NEED any. RoC, ReC, EC, and ChrC are the only mods that would need special handling.