Mod Feedback [By Request] RotaryCraft Suggestions

[RavynousHunter]

This is fine and a very appealing idea with one caveat:
Any interaction with RC has to respect the tiering, so things like power generation and/or creation of certain items has to be behind certain gates in the techtree. So, for example, an engine that generates 131kW yet being as easy to build as the steam engine is a problem. Same for something that could, for example, produce ethanol and is not gated behind early power and heat control.

I can help you with setting up interactions with the RC power system; it is very, very simple, involving one interface for receiving power and one (optional) one for getting red/green I/O boxes.

Sweet! I did read your rules on your site regarding addons, and I don't think that'd be a problem. I'm already compiling an in-code list of various materials' tensile strengths (in kilopascals) which I'll use to determine how much internal pressure a machine, like a boiler, can handle before a rupture...which may or may not be explosive, depending on the size of the machine, how much pressure is inside it, and how strong a material was used in its construction.

If it helps, I have a rough idea of how the boilers would be made. They'd be similar to XyCraft's tanks, with special valve blocks to delineate borders. They can only be made from metal blocks like iron or steel; no stone or wood boilers, the first doesn't have the strength to handle the pressures and the second is quite obviously extremely flammable, also, no glass. They also need some form of heat source near them, it doesn't have to be below, just so long as it can logically transfer heat from point A to point B and be touching the border of the boiler. While you can, for example, use a single block of burning netherrack to heat up a max-sized (32 m^2, configurable) boiler, you'd never get it to boiling temperature (if my physics is correct, it wouldn't impart enough heat energy to heat up the internal water tank by any significant amount), thus naturally preventing ridiculous cases of minimalism.

Lava can be used as a heat source, but it is extremely dangerous due to its extremely high heat level, using it on small boilers would end in catastrophic, explosive failure due to the water inside flash vapourizing. Even then, the water inside will eventually cool both flowing and source lava blocks, turning them into either cobble or obsidian, thus necessitating the replacement of the lava. Flowing lava would work best, since the flow would cause the cooling effect to be distributed over a greater surface area, making it take longer to harden.

Okay, time to stop procrastinating! Need to do schoolwork now!

 

[Reika]

Sweet! I did read your rules on your site regarding addons, and I don't think that'd be a problem.

That is good to hear.

I'm already compiling an in-code list of various materials' tensile strengths (in kilopascals)...

...A registry that DragonAPI (which you might as well build upon if you are making an RC addon) already contains, along with 1000 other features.

If it helps, I have a rough idea of how the boilers would be made. They'd be similar to XyCraft's tanks, with special valve blocks to delineate borders. They can only be made from metal blocks like iron or steel; no stone or wood boilers, the first doesn't have the strength to handle the pressures and the second is quite obviously extremely flammable, also, no glass. They also need some form of heat source near them, it doesn't have to be below, just so long as it can logically transfer heat from point A to point B and be touching the border of the boiler. While you can, for example, use a single block of burning netherrack to heat up a max-sized (32 m^2, configurable) boiler, you'd never get it to boiling temperature (if my physics is correct, it wouldn't impart enough heat energy to heat up the internal water tank by any significant amount), thus naturally preventing ridiculous cases of minimalism.

Lava can be used as a heat source, but it is extremely dangerous due to its extremely high heat level, using it on small boilers would end in catastrophic, explosive failure due to the water inside flash vapourizing. Even then, the water inside will eventually cool both flowing and source lava blocks, turning them into either cobble or obsidian, thus necessitating the replacement of the lava. Flowing lava would work best, since the flow would cause the cooling effect to be distributed over a greater surface area, making it take longer to harden.!

This sounds interesting, but it tells me little about it progression-wise. Maybe you want blast glass for the windows?

 

[RavynousHunter]

...A registry that DragonAPI (which you might as well build upon if you are making an RC addon) already contains, along with 1000 other features.

Well, I figured I'd do something semi-useful, or at least educational, til a 1.7.10 version of Dragon API came out, which I read it recently did, so huzzah!

This sounds interesting, but it tells me little about it progression-wise. Maybe you want blast glass for the windows?

I dunno if I'd want windows, honestly. I mean, I'm not using steam as in the Forge fluid, mostly to keep external dependencies low, but also to make something I could more finely control and define, mechanics-wise, so there'd be nothing to see except perhaps to watch your water bubble. Actually...that might be useful as a visual indicator that you did things right. That's not a bad idea! At least one side, inside the perimeter, has to be blast glass as a strong, pressure-resistant viewport.

Progression-wise, you'd have different, more efficient heating options for actual, purpose-built heating units, instead of lighting a fire underneath your boiler's arse, that'd use various fuels. Jet fuel would, of course, be the most efficient heating method, having both staying power and high per-unit heat output, while ethanol would be less so, since its easier to acquire, but ethanol would have the advantage of allowing certain additives to increase efficiency a la the performance engine. As for what goes into making the heating units...well, you've already got the igniter item. Mostly, it'd require a lot of steel. Perhaps a special block or two for the heating unit multiblock that'd act as an actual igniter, either working off an alternating redstone current, or to operate more efficiently and consistently, a small amount of shaft power, with higher speeds resulting in slightly higher fuel efficiency or somesuch.

Maybe have it so you could, if you have the bedrock ingots on hand, make bedrock ignition units and heating units. They'd be more fuel-efficient, since they'd transfer more heat to the boiler instead of absorbing it into their own structure. Dunno if I'd let them handle the hideously high temperatures of lava, though...partly for balance and partly for mere safety, since that crap gets mighty hot.

 

[Azzanine]

@RavynousHunter
Frankly all you need to make sure of is that the outputs of your engines are not too customizable, the output can be variable like hydro and solar but you can't set them like you could magneostatics. You want to provide instances where the player is made to tinker with gearing, which would further solidify the steam-punk motif you are looking for. Can't have steam punk without gratuitous usage of gears now can we.
Actually, maybe some new methods of transmission would be nice, a vertical gearbox would be nice (I'm not sure how realistic this would be though)

 

[midi_sec]

@RavynousHunter
Actually, maybe some new methods of transmission would be nice, a vertical gearbox would be nice (I'm not sure how realistic this would be though)

Kind of along this same line, I always thought it would be cool if I could connect distant gearboxes or shafts together via a belt or chain.

irl would look similar to this

Spoiler

 

[Azzanine]

Kind of along this same line, I always thought it would be cool if I could connect distant gearboxes or shafts together via a belt or chain.

irl would look similar to this

Spoiler

Umm, actually I think there already is.

Edit: look up chain drive or belt drive.

 

[midi_sec]

Umm, actually I think there already is.

Edit: look up chain drive or belt drive.

Welp, guess I should dig into the mod again once 1.7 stabilizes a bit.

 

[Reika]

@RavynousHunter
Frankly all you need to make sure of is that the outputs of your engines are not too customizable, the output can be variable like hydro and solar but you can't set them like you could magneostatics. You want to provide instances where the player is made to tinker with gearing, which would further solidify the steam-punk motif you are looking for. Can't have steam punk without gratuitous usage of gears now can we.
Actually, maybe some new methods of transmission would be nice, a vertical gearbox would be nice (I'm not sure how realistic this would be though)

I am more concerned with raw output or satisfying the requirements of certain key machines.

 

[RavynousHunter]

I am more concerned with raw output or satisfying the requirements of certain key machines.

Output depends on the pressure you supply and what grade of engine you use. The engines themselves would require a constant supply of lubricant (no bedrock engines, so no "lube once and done") to operate without rapid degradation. You can also link engines together by placing anything but the front or rear sides together, and the pressure will split evenly between them. I was thinking something like this...

• Tier One: Can handle up to 2,048 kPa of steam pressure. At maximum pressure, can output 256 Nm @ 256 rad/s (65,536W).
• Tier Two: Can handle up to 4,096 kPa of steam pressure. At maximum pressure, can output 256 Nm @ 512 rad/s (131,072W).
• Tier Three: Can handle up to 8,192 kPa of steam pressure. At maximum pressure, can output 256 Nm @ 1,024 rad/s (262,144W).
• Tier Four: Can handle up to 16,384 kPa of steam pressure. At maximum pressure, can output 512 Nm @ 1,024 rad/s (524,288W).
• Tier Five: Can handle up to 32,768 kPa of steam pressure. At maximum pressure, can output 512 Nm @ 2,048 rad/s (1,048,576W).
• Tier Six: Can handle up to 65,536 kPa of steam pressure. At maximum pressure, can output 512 Nm @ 4,096 rad/s (2,097,152W).

However, it'd add more than just more power generation options. One machine I have planned is something similar to the compactor, except it is designed to use steam pressure to make purpose-built boiler walls. Their higher density makes them stronger and able to handle higher amounts of internal pressure. There'd also be different grades of this boiler wall compressor, each crafted from the previous tier's boiler walls, up to six tiers, each time doubling the amount it compress, but also doubling the resource cost per boiler wall block, with tier one costing two metal blocks, tier two costing two boiler walls, tier three costing two tier 2 boiler walls, and so on. They'd also require double the pressure, meaning you'd need better pressure production to operate each tier.

Out of curiosity, @Reika, what's the tensile strength of blast glass? I ask because the higher-tier boiler walls might be more durable than the blast glass, and that would lead to...unfortunate failures for unlucky players. I could have the boiler wall compressor also work with blast glass, creating a denser, more durable version for use with the high-pressure boilers.

 

[Arkandos]

-snip-

You have really thought this through haven't you? I like it.

 

[Omicron]

I urge you to not fall into the trap of pure cost based progression balancing. I know it's the first thought that comes to mind since we deal with resource costs all day long when playing with tech mods, but in practical application, in a world where all resources are infinite, that's never going to work out in the end.

At the same time, you're going to struggle matching pace with Rotarycraft, which doesn't follow a cost based progression. Here's an example: your progression starts with output equal to that of a gasoline engine, and ends with output equal to that of a microturbine. Your proposed boiler walls meanwhile scale with a factor of 32 from tier 1 to tier 6. So even if a tier 1 boiler wall is made out of a single HSLA ingot, a tier 6 wall will cost 32 HSLA ingots. And that's one wall section. How many are you requiring to build that boiler? And how many for the steam lines, how many for the steam engines? Determine that number for both tier 1 and tier 6. Now look at how much it costs to make a DC engine + fermenter + gasoline engine, and how much it takes to make a DC engine + fermenter + gasoline engine + fractionator + microturbine. The 16:1 gearbox for the fractionator isn't cost relevant, it can be stone.

You're going to notice something there - namely that the difference in materials cost between the two setups isn't all that big. I don't have access to any of the recipes, but I'm going to go out on a limb here and claim that the microturbine setup is maybe twice as expensive. Certainly no more than three times, and a long, long ways away from 32 times. This is because Rotarycraft uses a mixture of enabler gating (can't run a gasoline engine without first crafting a DC engine and a fermenter) and resource supply gating (the fractionator's eclectic nether ingredient tastes) in order to structure its progression in this example, not cost gating.

Not saying you can't make it work. I'm just saying that if you aim to balance your tier 1 against the cost of a gasoline engine setup, then every tier you go up will become more prohibitively expensive; and if you balance your tier 6 against the cost of a microturbine setup, you'll end up with tier 1 setups with the cost of a DC engine. If even that much. It's going to be tough to justify all your tiers at once, no matter which you set as your baseline match.

 

[Demosthenex]

I urge you to not fall into the trap of pure cost based progression balancing. I know it's the first thought that comes to mind since we deal with resource costs all day long when playing with tech mods, but in practical application, in a world where all resources are infinite, that's never going to work out in the end.

At the same time, you're going to struggle matching pace with Rotarycraft, which doesn't follow a cost based progression. Here's an example: your progression starts with output equal to that of a gasoline engine, and ends with output equal to that of a microturbine. Your proposed boiler walls meanwhile scale with a factor of 32 from tier 1 to tier 6. So even if a tier 1 boiler wall is made out of a single HSLA ingot, a tier 6 wall will cost 32 HSLA ingots. And that's one wall section. How many are you requiring to build that boiler? And how many for the steam lines, how many for the steam engines? Determine that number for both tier 1 and tier 6. Now look at how much it costs to make a DC engine + fermenter + gasoline engine, and how much it takes to make a DC engine + fermenter + gasoline engine + fractionator + microturbine. The 16:1 gearbox for the fractionator isn't cost relevant, it can be stone.

You're going to notice something there - namely that the difference in materials cost between the two setups isn't all that big. I don't have access to any of the recipes, but I'm going to go out on a limb here and claim that the microturbine setup is maybe twice as expensive. Certainly no more than three times, and a long, long ways away from 32 times. This is because Rotarycraft uses a mixture of enabler gating (can't run a gasoline engine without first crafting a DC engine and a fermenter) and resource supply gating (the fractionator's eclectic nether ingredient tastes) in order to structure its progression in this example, not cost gating.

Not saying you can't make it work. I'm just saying that if you aim to balance your tier 1 against the cost of a gasoline engine setup, then every tier you go up will become more prohibitively expensive; and if you balance your tier 6 against the cost of a microturbine setup, you'll end up with tier 1 setups with the cost of a DC engine. If even that much. It's going to be tough to justify all your tiers at once, no matter which you set as your baseline match.

I think that's one of the best parts about RotaryCraft, the progression isn't just resources it's building machines that let you create the next part. Until you achieve certain amounts of power and unlock that next machine, you can't get the better one. I like that you can't skip tiers, and have to earn your way up.

 

[Pyure]

I think that's one of the best parts about RotaryCraft, the progression isn't just resources it's building machines that let you create the next part. Until you achieve certain amounts of power and unlock that next machine, you can't get the better one. I like that you can't skip tiers, and have to earn your way up.

Snarky people might say its a greggy approach.

Good. Its the right approach. All mods should have progression-based tiering.

One nod I will give to GT over RoC on this specific matter (GT loses in a lot of other areas) is that pack makers are currently allowed to tweak the GT recipes, and other mods around GT, to make a whole pack work in the same way. RoC is still a bit unfriendly to pack makers in that regard.

And before Reika loses his shit, this is one specific area. I still prefer RoC and its counterparts with regards to nuclear designs, electrical system, and a ton of other things. It's ok not to be the best at everything.

 

[Reika]

Relevant: I broke another way of skipping the techtree:

Output depends on the pressure you supply and what grade of engine you use. The engines themselves would require a constant supply of lubricant (no bedrock engines, so no "lube once and done") to operate without rapid degradation. You can also link engines together by placing anything but the front or rear sides together, and the pressure will split evenly between them. I was thinking something like this...

• Tier One: Can handle up to 2,048 kPa of steam pressure. At maximum pressure, can output 256 Nm @ 256 rad/s (65,536W).
• Tier Two: Can handle up to 4,096 kPa of steam pressure. At maximum pressure, can output 256 Nm @ 512 rad/s (131,072W).
• Tier Three: Can handle up to 8,192 kPa of steam pressure. At maximum pressure, can output 256 Nm @ 1,024 rad/s (262,144W).
• Tier Four: Can handle up to 16,384 kPa of steam pressure. At maximum pressure, can output 512 Nm @ 1,024 rad/s (524,288W).
• Tier Five: Can handle up to 32,768 kPa of steam pressure. At maximum pressure, can output 512 Nm @ 2,048 rad/s (1,048,576W).
• Tier Six: Can handle up to 65,536 kPa of steam pressure. At maximum pressure, can output 512 Nm @ 4,096 rad/s (2,097,152W).

However, it'd add more than just more power generation options. One machine I have planned is something similar to the compactor, except it is designed to use steam pressure to make purpose-built boiler walls. Their higher density makes them stronger and able to handle higher amounts of internal pressure. There'd also be different grades of this boiler wall compressor, each crafted from the previous tier's boiler walls, up to six tiers, each time doubling the amount it compress, but also doubling the resource cost per boiler wall block, with tier one costing two metal blocks, tier two costing two boiler walls, tier three costing two tier 2 boiler walls, and so on. They'd also require double the pressure, meaning you'd need better pressure production to operate each tier.

Those power numbers look OK except for the first one; 256Nm at steam-engine-level progression is a problem.

Out of curiosity, @Reika, what's the tensile strength of blast glass? I ask because the higher-tier boiler walls might be more durable than the blast glass, and that would lead to...unfortunate failures for unlucky players. I could have the boiler wall compressor also work with blast glass, creating a denser, more durable version for use with the high-pressure boilers.

Probably around 12MPa.

 

[madnewmy]

Relevant: I broke another way of skipping the techtree:

Those power numbers look OK except for the first one; 256Nm at steam-engine-level progression is a problem.



Probably around 12MPa.

Soooo hydro don'tdaisy chain anymore?

 

[Pyure]

Don't chain "excessively" anymore as I understand it.

Good change, but I'm going to be a prickly bitch and say the majority of problems with hydros still exist.

Thanks though Reika. Good direction with this. Don't let my snarkiness be a bother.

 

[dothrom]

Relevant: I broke another way of skipping the techtree:

Those power numbers look OK except for the first one; 256Nm at steam-engine-level progression is a problem.



Probably around 12MPa.

I'm not the only one that is weirded out by that first hydro' goin all over the place am I?[DOUBLEPOST=1409850305][/DOUBLEPOST]

Don't chain "excessively" anymore as I understand it.

Good change, but I'm going to be a prickly bitch and say the majority of problems with hydros still exist.

Thanks though Reika. Good direction with this. Don't let my snarkiness be a bother.

I sure hope it's just a limit to the amount you can daisy chain. Because wasn't that one of the 'advertised' benefits?
I only ever use them for my initial bedrock breaker so I can make CVT's anyway. Not terribly fond of having huge pillars of water

 

[Reika]

I'm not the only one that is weirded out by that first hydro' goin all over the place am I?[DOUBLEPOST=1409850305][/DOUBLEPOST]

I sure hope it's just a limit to the amount you can daisy chain. Because wasn't that one of the 'advertised' benefits?
I only ever use them for my initial bedrock breaker so I can make CVT's anyway. Not terribly fond of having huge pillars of water

I also doubled the bedrock breaker's requirements. Hydros can no longer be chained enough to do that without a bedrock upgrade.

 

[Pyure]

I also doubled the bedrock breaker's requirements. Hydros can no longer be chained enough to do that without a bedrock upgrade.

Is it still possible to just have multiple hydro systems chained together, seperated simply by shafts or junction shafts and whatnot?

 

[madnewmy]

I also doubled the bedrock breaker's requirements. Hydros can no longer be chained enough to do that without a bedrock upgrade.

Using only bevel gear to get to the breaker?