Blulectric Engine

[KirinDave]

In which case, you are doing something wrong, as I had my sorting system dealing with a quarry running at max speed with no issues.

Had? When? Because the speed of quarries has been upped. If you have 2 redstone energy cells at max power they really fly. And look at Direwolf20's new system. He has multiple sorting machines on his input chest too.

The key thing is the first sorting machine should pull out stacks, not items.

This doesn't make sense at all. The rate the quarry comes in vs the single sorting speed cycle rate is the problem. I watch it frantically dump out the incoming cobble (you'll see like 4 at a time come in, then they vanish, and more stuff appears before it keeps cycling.

I think you're also misunderstanding the problem; the problem is at max power the quarry can sometimes overwhelm my recycler capacity in some cases. (In particular when random distributions of items into the recycler farm mean that only one recycler can process gravel or marble, for example). I'd love a way to safely and effectively void pipe that, but such a bridge is actually pretty awkward without a really powerful engine hooked up to a wood pipe.

The sorting machine will always prioritise items in it's filter/sorting area (starting top left) over unsorted items, so if you have cobble assigned to a specific colour in the left most column, this will always get processed first over any other item.

My recycler line is the rightmost line and is reserved for only those things. Special color, not default. Because I noticed the prioritization behavior immediately.

By the way, effing quartz crystals. I know Soren is a cool guy and all but man are these things a pain.

 

[Abdiel]

There is no reason any cobble should ever enter your sorting system. Void pipe it right at the quarry and you will save yourself 99% of the sorting bandwidth. If you need recycler food, just hook up a bunch of igneous extruders.

 

[Xakthos]

There is no reason any cobble should ever enter your sorting system. Void pipe it right at the quarry and you will save yourself 99% of the sorting bandwidth.

Cobblestone can be very handy to have around. I won't let a block of it go to waste from my quarries. Course once you get a few million or so there's gotta be a limit to how much you accumulate.

 

[Whovian]

There is no reason any cobble should ever enter your sorting system. Void pipe it right at the quarry and you will save yourself 99% of the sorting bandwidth.

Hmm. I thought stuff in Diamond Pipes, if it isn't labeled, goes out a random side? In which case, unless you tell it to output everything else out other sides, you're telling it to pipe half your, say, Earth Shards into the Void. And it's pretty difficult to give everything a colour label in a Diamond Pipe, partially because there are so many things you can run into underground.

 

[Abdiel]

Cobblestone can be very handy to have around. I won't let a block of it go to waste from my quarries. Course once you get a few million or so there's gotta be a limit to how much you accumulate.

I have an enderchest hooked up to an igneous extruder. That way I have unlimited free cobblestone anywhere I need it.[DOUBLEPOST=1360610309][/DOUBLEPOST]

Hmm. I thought stuff in Diamond Pipes, if it isn't labeled, goes out a random side? In which case, unless you tell it to output everything else out other sides, you're telling it to pipe half your, say, Earth Shards into the Void. And it's pretty difficult to give everything a colour label in a Diamond Pipe, partially because there are so many things you can run into underground.

An item entering a diamond pipe:
- First, if there is a side (or sides) marked with that item, it will always try to take this side, or one of these sides at random.
- If there is no side marked with this item, or all the sides marked with this item are blocked (e.g. full inventory), and there is a side (or sides) with no filter at all, it will take this side (or one of these sides at random).
- Last, if there is no side marked with this item and no unmarked side, or all of these are blocked, the item will drop on the ground.

An item will never take a side that is marked with a different item.

Long story short, mark one side with cobble, dirt, gravel, etc. and send that to void, leave the other side (to your sorting system) unmarked.

 

[KirinDave]

There is no reason any cobble should ever enter your sorting system. Void pipe it right at the quarry and you will save yourself 99% of the sorting bandwidth. If you need recycler food, just hook up a bunch of igneous extruders.

I'm building up a nice supply of scrap, smooth stone, and cobble reserves for building (we build in cobble then use wands of equal trade to swap for the desired material once the build is done, this gives us a lot of flexibility on layout without resource commitment up front). The only thing I am now void piping on site is dirt. But the age I am using for quarries is... not friendly. So basically what I'd like to do is fly in, set things up with a 3 block setup, then immediately bamf out. Maybe when I have a quantum suit I can make more elaborate builds.

But why shouldn't I have an upgraded barrel full of cobble?[DOUBLEPOST=1360610490][/DOUBLEPOST]

I have an enderchest hooked up to an igneous extruder. That way I have unlimited free cobblestone anywhere I need it.

For the cost of power. I'm still on one of these scrub lava drive systems until I can get more resources for actual power systems.

 

[Milaha]

You know, RP doesn't really "do it automatically" it just hides it a little longer. Since backflow can go _anywhere_ and block _anything_ , whatever got blocked stops doing its thing and everything behind it backs up as well. Eventually you notice your wall of machines have stopped working and you spend 30 minutes trying to figure out what fiilled up causing overflow.

Sure it does, throw a restriction tube (or several) on an alternate route, voila, automatic overflow protection. I have all of my RP piping on one network, with a recycler behind 1 restriction tube, and a void pipe behind 2 restriction tubes. All overflows automatically just get handled, without impacting anything else.

I actually do not even do the normal color coding for processing. I use filters and restriction tubes to restrict outputs and provide priorities. It probably uses a bit more resources with all the filters, but it is super easy to add new input or output devices and it always works flawlessly.

I have seen people get into this mindset where they need to manage their network way more than they really do. RP is "smart" treat it that way and you will have many less problems. It will handle all the in-between stuff for you, just worry about the insertion and exit points.

 

[Abdiel]

I'm building up a nice supply of scrap, smooth stone, and cobble reserves for building (we build in cobble then use wands of equal trade to swap for the desired material once the build is done, this gives us a lot of flexibility on layout without resource commitment up front). The only thing I am now void piping on site is dirt. But the age I am using for quarries is... not friendly. So basically what I'd like to do is fly in, set things up with a 3 block setup, then immediately bamf out. Maybe when I have a quantum suit I can make more elaborate builds.

But why shouldn't I have an upgraded barrel full of cobble?

If you need a barrel full of cobble, hook up an igneous extruder (or eight). Don't lag your sorting system and everyone on your server (I assume you're on a server because of "we") with five trillion individual pieces of cobblestone going on a trip around your base in tubes.

For the cost of power. I'm still on one of these scrub lava drive systems until I can get more resources for actual power systems.

Extruders don't use any power, and when making cobblestone don't use any lava or water.

 

[KirinDave]

If you need a barrel full of cobble, hook up an igneous extruder (or eight). Don't lag your sorting system and everyone on your server (I assume you're on a server because of "we") with five trillion individual pieces of cobblestone going on a trip around your base in tubes.

It's already chunkloaded. And people with lousy computers are already forbidden from joining our server by virtue of having basically any redpower2 logic blocks at all.

 

[KirinDave]

Extruders don't use any power, and when making cobblestone don't use any lava or water.

I thought they did use both. Interesting.

 

[Golrith]

Had? When? Because the speed of quarries has been upped. If you have 2 redstone energy cells at max power they really fly. And look at Direwolf20's new system. He has multiple sorting machines on his input chest too.



This doesn't make sense at all. The rate the quarry comes in vs the single sorting speed cycle rate is the problem. I watch it frantically dump out the incoming cobble (you'll see like 4 at a time come in, then they vanish, and more stuff appears before it keeps cycling.

I think you're also misunderstanding the problem; the problem is at max power the quarry can sometimes overwhelm my recycler capacity in some cases. (In particular when random distributions of items into the recycler farm mean that only one recycler can process gravel or marble, for example). I'd love a way to safely and effectively void pipe that, but such a bridge is actually pretty awkward without a really powerful engine hooked up to a wood pipe.



My recycler line is the rightmost line and is reserved for only those things. Special color, not default. Because I noticed the prioritization behavior immediately.

By the way, effing quartz crystals. I know Soren is a cool guy and all but man are these things a pain.

Had as in at the weekend. It's finished ripping up ores now, haven't moved it, due to having enough resources at the moment.

Taking stacks is better then telling the sorting machine to take individual items. Stack mode works with any partial stack.
If your sorting system can't keep up with the input, then slow down the input. There's no need at all to run a quarry at max speed, if it takes 10 minutes longer, big deal. Saves time over trying to work out where a jam is and clearing it.

Those crystals are a pain, hence I just leave them in my overflow chest and take a stack now and again for TC3 stuff.

 

[DoctorOr]

I have seen people get into this mindset where they need to manage their network way more than they really do. RP is "smart" treat it that way and you will have many less problems. It will handle all the in-between stuff for you, just worry about the insertion and exit points.

RP tubes are not smart in any meaningful definition of the word. They're stupid in a different manner than BC pipes, but they are not smart.

A smart network would know its path before it ever was emitted from its source, and the source would be considered full while product to fill it was in transit.

A less dumb network, but still not smart, would send overflow to its origination instead of randomly plugging any available orifice like a drunk sailor.

 

[Milaha]

A smart network would know its path before it ever was emitted from its source

It does, and if it has no valid path, it does not get emitted, this is generally when things "backup" in RP networks. This is my entire point. Sure, it will emit a full stack when the destination can only take 1, but it handles that in its own "special" way (emitting it again from the "destination")

and the source would be considered full while product to fill it was in transit.

That would be nice, as it would save transit time when you have more than one destination for a single item, but that is what managers are for, truly smart routing instead of "smart" routing.

A less dumb network, but still not smart, would send overflow to its origination instead of randomly plugging any available orifice like a drunk sailor.

Again, managers.


The mechanics as they are work wondrously if you plan for them to work the way that they do. It is incredibly easy to set-up, expand, and manage since you never ever have to worry about how things are going to get from A to B.

 

[Xakthos]

It does, and if it has no valid path, it does not get emitted, this is generally when things "backup" in RP networks. This is my entire point. Sure, it will emit a full stack when the destination can only take 1, but it handles that in its own "special" way (emitting it again from the "destination")
That would be nice, as it would save transit time when you have more than one destination for a single item, but that is what managers are for, truly smart routing instead of "smart" routing.
Again, managers.
The mechanics as they are work wondrously if you plan for them to work the way that they do. It is incredibly easy to set-up, expand, and manage since you never ever have to worry about how things are going to get from A to B.

Managers are a cute idea that works on small scale. Try to explain to a manager that a given row can have 650536 of an item (10 upgraded barrels). Least I haven't found a way given the system.

Before anyone asks, yes I've gathered more than that of some items.

 

[DoctorOr]

It does, and if it has no valid path

It doesn't know the path, it only knows its target. Insert a shorter path while it is in transit and it will change.

it does not get emitted, this is generally when things "backup" in RP networks.

Things "generally" backup when the source emits multiple items, and the recipient fills up with the first item or stack that was emitted. Then all the rest of the items look for the closest output block on the network. _Any_output_block_. And backflow that, which makes the block they went into refuse to emit more items until the backflow is cleared. The block thus backflowed into does not have to be the same one that emitted the items.

If items only backflowed into the originator, it would cause far less problems.

Again, managers.

Managers are better, but far from perfect. Also requiring power (as well as over a stack of redstone - since you'll need two managers at least, one for input, one for output) for every single device is exorbitant. Blutricity has poor generation choices unless you build strictly on the surface and does not travel well.

 

[Milaha]

It doesn't know the path, it only knows its target. Insert a shorter path while it is in transit and it will change.

This is pretty much just semantics, and actually argues for it being "smarter" than I claimed. It is able to dynamically adapt to a changing network infrastructure even while in transit without loosing its destination.

Things "generally" backup when the source emits multiple items, and the recipient fills up with the first item or stack that was emitted. Then all the rest of the items look for the closest output block on the network. _Any_output_block_. And backflow that, which makes the block they went into refuse to emit more items until the backflow is cleared. The block thus backflowed into does not have to be the same one that emitted the items.

No, this is not how it works, this is only how it works if you have no other valid output blocks. In effect, if the destination can not handle all of the stack then it shoots the stuff back into the system, if the system litteraly has nowhere at all for that item to go, it will back up into some device somewhere yes. But that is why you do not build a system where things are going to go out and not have a home. Build a home (and backup home) and you will literally never, ever, have a problem. you are not using the system the right way if you have problems with this. Just like BC or any other system you need overflow protection, in RP that is as easy as throwing a void pipe behind a couple restriction tubes.

For example, I have a metric shit-ton of charcoal flowing around my network. In addition to a solid fuel boiler and two carts using it I also do some on the spot generation of IC power for some low intensity needs (like running a macerator for plant balls>dirt at biofuel production). So, under BC I would have to somehow manage routing charcoal to ~5 places before accounting for storage or true overflow (which I do not even think you could properly have it only go to if the 5 places are full). Under RP I get to just pipe it all to the network, it goes to all those machines and inventories unless they are full, if they are full then it instead flows to storage, and if THAT is full it goes to a recycler, and if THAT is full it goes to a void pipe (via relay). That is 9 valid destinations for charcoal on 4 priority tiers. All handled just fine, including rejects from generators that take 1 off a stack and kick the rest back on to the network. It breaks ONLY when you do not give it valid outputs.

If items only backflowed into the originator, it would cause far less problems.

Why on earth would I want to send items back to where they came from? I just pumped it OUT of that inventory, why am I pumping it out if that is where I want it? RP is not logistic pipes, it is not meant to handle a storage chest and then keep a few items in another destination. Again, (sounding like a broken record here) If you are using it that way then you are not using it right and of course you are going to have problems.

 

[Abdiel]

Well, RP isn't really doing well with massive tube networks with many connected machines and different paths for items to take. Some people try to build their tubes like they would logistic pipes: one massive network connected to everything from their quarry to their machines to their storage to their crafting. RP doesn't really work well like this, at least not with a sane amount of logic and machines in the setup. The second problem is that RP's logic is very source-heavy: whenever an item is emitted into a tube, its destination is set and is unlikely to change, except for some kind of a failure state. Therefore it is difficult to do something like a diamond pipe "if this destination is full, go to overflow". The only reason RP is suitable for a sorting system is that it can recognize one condition remotely: that an inventory is full. Other than that, RP is really more suited for distribution problems, e.g. "feed the blast furnace with two coal dust for every iron", or "send every ore to its appropriate processing machine", where you can easily condense all your logic into a single place, and have just one tube running to your machine room.

 

[DoctorOr]

This is pretty much just semantics, and actually argues for it being "smarter" than I claimed. It is able to dynamically adapt to a changing network infrastructure even while in transit without loosing its destination.

You really don't understand pathing then. Every block of tube, it recomputes its path. This is resource intensive and "dumb". It is not adapting, because it _has_no_plan_.

No, this is not how it works, this is only how it works if you have no other valid output blocks.

Translation: "This is not how it works, except it's exactly how it works."

It is not always reasonable to always have a overflow chest. For example, any item you're trying to use, not store.

All that "flowing" around is increasing resource intensive, because as above, every item recomputes its path every block.

Why on earth would I want to send items back to where they came from? I just pumped it OUT of that inventory, why am I pumping it out if that is where I want it?

That's the inventory you want _blocked_ so that it doesn't send even more unneeded items. What you don't want to happen is to clog some random other inventory while allowing the originator to send even more (and generally multiple) outputs when the target frees up slightly. Except, of course, that that's exactly what the redpower tube network does.

RP is not logistic pipes, it is not meant to handle a storage chest and then keep a few items in another destination. Again, (sounding like a broken record here) If you are using it that way then you are not using it right and of course you are going to have problems.

If the network cannot handle getting items from point A to point B without clogging up point C, then it is the network at fault.

 

[Milaha]

You really don't understand pathing then. Every block of tube, it recomputes its path. This is resource intensive and "dumb". It is not adapting, because it _has_no_plan_.




Translation: "This is not how it works, except it's exactly how it works."

It is not always reasonable to always have a overflow chest. For example, any item you're trying to use, not store.

All that "flowing" around is increasing resource intensive, because as above, every item recomputes its path every block.



That's the inventory you want _blocked_ so that it doesn't send even more unneeded items. What you don't want to happen is to clog some random other inventory while allowing the originator to send even more (and generally multiple) outputs when the target frees up slightly. Except, of course, that that's exactly what the redpower tube network does.



If the network cannot handle getting items from point A to point B without clogging up point C, then it is the network at fault.

Translation: You are using RP as an inventory management system. RP is a sorting system. You have constant problems because you are trying to make it do things it was never intended to do.

 

[DoctorOr]

Translation: You are using RP as an inventory management system. RP is a sorting system. You have constant problems because you are trying to make it do things it was never intended to do.

Silly statement, since "sorting" is a subset of "inventory management". Getting items from point A to point B, without conflicting with point C.

What it's boiling down to is that you've lost all context of this conversation, where you objected to the description of tubes as a dumb network. It's a descriptive term, opposite of a smart network, not a judgmental one. It's also a testable claim, and not based in opinion. Redpower tubes quality as dumb.