[1.7.10][LISTED] InfiTech 2 Modpack v3.2.21 [HQM][GregTech balanced hard-mode modpack]

[Pyure]

It is actually rather hard to explain this in a reasonably easy-to-understand way....I spent quite some time on better phrasing. What do you think of this (also @Blood Asp, please check this for possible mistakes ):

"Optimal Flow and Maximum Output:
Optimal Flow is the amount per time unit of gas, steam, superheated steam or plasma that generates a Large Turbine's nominal output. It depends on the turbine type and the built-in turbine item. The value listed in the description of the turbine item ("Optimal Steam Flow") applies to Large Steam Turbines. Values for HP, gas or plasma turbines differ and are calculated as described below. Any Large Turbine's nominal output is calculated from the "Optimal Steam Flow" as follows:
*In a Large Steam Turbine: Nominal output = Optimal Steam Flow per tick / 2
*In a Large Gas or HP Turbine: Nominal output = Optimal Steam Flow per tick
*In a Plasma Turbine: Nominal output = Optimal Steam Flow per tick * 40
Examples:
*A Large Plasma Turbine using a "10000L/sec" turbine item has a nominal output of (10000/20) * 40 = 20000 EU/t.
*A Large Gas Turbine using a "10000L/sec" turbine item has a nominal output of (10000/20) = 500 EU/t.
*A Large Steam Turbine using a "10000L/sec" turbine item has a nominal output of (10000/20) / 2 = 250 EU/t.

From this, Optimal Flow can be calculated as Optimal Flow = Nominal Output / Fuel Value per L. Examples:
*Steam has a fuel value of 0.5 EU/L, so optimal flow is 250/0.5 = 500 L/t, which of course equals the listed value of 10000L/sec.
*Biogas has a fuel value of 32 EU/L, so optimal flow is 500 / 32 ~ 16 L/t
*Helium plasma has a fuel value of 4096 EU/L, so optimal flow is 20000/4096 ~ 5 L/t.

A turbine's actual output is Nominal Output * Efficiency%/100. A turbine can work with up to 150% of its optimal flow, but no power will be generated from the surplus. If supplied with less, the turbine will still run, but an additional efficiency modifier will be applied to the output. FlowEfficiency = ActualFlow/OptimalFlow."

Ieldra, this is brilliant. I've bolded one line that I hope you can attack one more time; I can't make my brain accept it, even after I understand the math and understand what you're getting at. Its also the most complex piece of information, so, good luck with that.

@Blood Asp, it sorta bothers me that a lot of the math and/or variables here are totally unknown to the player. Since all the variables are known to the system, could you please consider extending the tooltip to show optimal flow per turbine type?
Optimal Flow :
Steam: X
Biogas: Y
Helium Plasma: Z

I realize if there's a ton of fuel types the tooltip can get long but I think that's way better for the end-user. Otherwise they need to keep digging up this thread to find the math.

 

[Ieldra]

Ieldra, this is brilliant. I've bolded one line that I hope you can attack one more time; I can't make my brain accept it, even after I understand the math and understand what you're getting at. Its also the most complex piece of information, so, good luck with that.

@Blood Asp, it sorta bothers me that a lot of the math and/or variables here are totally unknown to the player. Since all the variables are known to the system, could you please consider extending the tooltip to show optimal flow per turbine type?
Optimal Flow :
Steam: X
Biogas: Y
Helium Plasma: Z

I realize if there's a ton of fuel types the tooltip can get long but I think that's way better for the end-user. Otherwise they need to keep digging up this thread to find the math.

This is too much for a tool tip, but rather for an in-game book or in-game wiki.

As for the the first line: I don't think it's possible to express this in any easier-to-understand way. I realize that there is no primary hook, so that you need to read on for full understanding, but that's an inevitable consequence of the way this works: you use the optimal steam flow to calculate nominal output and then use nominal output to calculate flow for other gases and plasmas. Would it be better to start with an explanation of the nominal output: "A Large Turbine's nominal output is the power output generated by its optimal flow?" I doubt it.

 

[Pyure]

This is too much for a tool tip, but rather for an in-game book or in-game wiki.

How many fuel types are there? I'm not familiar with plasma at all, but I saw references to non-helium plasma. If there's only, say, 5 total types, its perfect for a tool tip. 3 types isn't even an issue, particularly if you've seen the crazy tooltips greg has for GT6. 10 is probably too many.

Books won't work, it needs to be dynamic based on the item you're looking at. Otherwise the book would be hundreds of pages long to accommodate all the possible turbines.


Edit: nevermind, answered my own question at http://ftb.gamepedia.com/Plasma_Generator_(GregTech_5_Unofficial)

Ok, good. This isn't too many for a tooltip, particularly considering the usefulness of the info. Big useful tooltips seems to be the way mods in general are going, and GT in particular, and I absolutely love having critical info on hand at a glance.

 

[Jason McRay]

Speaking of tooltips.... <SHIFT> to show tooltip? Then noone will care how bug they are, because they will be hidden until <SHIFT> is pressed...

 

[Pyure]

Speaking of tooltips.... <SHIFT> to show tooltip? Then noone will care how bug they are, because they will be hidden until <SHIFT> is pressed...

I'm an idiot, I forgot about that. Good idea.

 

[Xavion]

Since all the variables are known to the system, could you please consider extending the tooltip to show optimal flow per turbine type?

There is another possibility that's interesting, NEI integration so when you look at the uses for the fuel while currently it should show you what generators use it for the ones that use the variable turbines what about including a line for their steam flow divisor? For example Steam has a /1 flow divisor while Helium Plasma has a /100 divisor and biogas has a /32 divisor, no more need for adding a dozen lines to every turbine's tooltip as every fuel will automatically include the multiplier which people can then use at their leisure. Just a thought on a different option.

 

[Pyure]

There is another possibility that's interesting, NEI integration so when you look at the uses for the fuel while currently it should show you what generators use it for the ones that use the variable turbines what about including a line for their steam flow divisor? For example Steam has a /1 flow divisor while Helium Plasma has a /100 divisor and biogas has a /32 divisor, no more need for adding a dozen lines to every turbine's tooltip as every fuel will automatically include the multiplier which people can then use at their leisure. Just a thought on a different option.

You're right, that would be very cool too, but I'm thinking the tooltip option would take Blood about 3 minutes to implement, and NEI integration sounds more involved

 

[Xavion]

You're right, that would be very cool too, but I'm thinking the tooltip option would take Blood about 3 minutes to implement, and NEI integration sounds more involved

That's why I mentioned only adding a line, iirc all the fuels already show up in NEI as the generators have integration with it so it would basically just be adding a bit of code to each of the three generator types to calc that extra number and display it rounded to one or two significant figures. No idea how hard that is but the base should be pretty much all there already.

 

[Pyure]

@Ieldra, have you assembled a survival-game fusion reactor of any kind yet? If so I'm curious what your experience was like.

Also, what are the merits of the various plasma types beyond output? I see helium produces the least amount of energy, but since its presumably the easiest to produce, how does it rate in efficiency?

 

[Ieldra]

@Ieldra, have you assembled a survival-game fusion reactor of any kind yet? If so I'm curious what your experience was like.

Also, what are the merits of the various plasma types beyond output? I see helium produces the least amount of energy, but since its presumably the easiest to produce, how does it rate in efficiency?

I have built a Mk I fusion reactor, but it isn't running yet because the supporting infrastructure isn't finished. Here's why:

I want to build a self-sustaining reactor that powers the machines that make its fuel. That means using the Deuterium/Tritium recipe. The reactor requires 125L deuterium and 125L tritium every 16 ticks. Doesn't sound all that much? Well, one MV centrifuge makes 4L tritium from 16L deuterium every 16 ticks, that means 32 MV centrifuges. One LV centrifuge makes 4L deuterium from 16L hydrogen every 16 ticks, that's another 32 centrifuges plus 32*4 = 128 centrifuges to make the deuterium for tritium production. Then, an LV electrolyzer make 2000L hydrogen from 3000L water every 75 seconds. That makes 120 LV electrolyzers...

So you see why I need 21 processing arrays. I have almost everything else, but my three HV EBFs have been running for five real-time days making the required tungstensteel. I hope to see things running next weekend or so.

That also tells you something about the recipes and their merits. Basically, it's a function of the net power output (total output as listed in the table minus the power requirement to sustain fusion and fuel processing) and fuel availability.
Water is infinitely available so you can make a reactor that generates about 16kEU/t constant baseload power (take that, Big Reactor!), I consider that extremely desirable. Further along the scale, endstone is super-common so helium-3 is a good fuel, but it means setting up automated mining in the End - also, if you start using helium 3, it's probably best to skip the H2/He3 recipe in favor of the C12/He3 one, since carbon is almost as common in form of coal and the recipe yields double the gross output. Lastly, if you start with few energy hatches, some recipes may not be available to you at the start, though that's more a limitation on the endothermic recipes.

As for building the reactor itself, the big bottleneck is the chrome for the LuV casings. The osmium that goes into the fusion computer can also be an issue if you've got no iridium mines and didn't set up matter fabrication. I've been using Yttrium-Barium-Cuprate for the superconducting wires since I had tons of barite and just enough Yttrium from redstone ore processing.

 

[Pyure]

I have built a Mk I fusion reactor, but it isn't running yet because the supporting infrastructure isn't finished. Here's why:

I want to build a self-sustaining reactor that powers the machines that make its fuel. That means using the Deuterium/Tritium recipe. The reactor requires 125L deuterium and 125L tritium every 16 ticks. Doesn't sound all that much? Well, one MV centrifuge makes 4L tritium from 16L deuterium every 16 ticks, that means 32 MV centrifuges. One LV centrifuge makes 4L deuterium from 16L hydrogen every 16 ticks, that's another 32 centrifuges plus 32*4 = 128 centrifuges to make the deuterium for tritium production. Then, an LV electrolyzer make 2000L hydrogen from 3000L water every 75 seconds. That makes 120 LV electrolyzers...

So you see why I need 21 processing arrays. I have almost everything else, but my three HV EBFs have been running for five real-time days making the required tungstensteel. I hope to see things running next weekend or so.

That also tells you something about the recipes and their merits. Basically, it's a function of the net power output (total output as listed in the table minus the power requirement to sustain fusion and fuel processing) and fuel availability.
Water is infinitely available so you can make a reactor that generates about 16kEU/t constant baseload power (take that, Big Reactor!), I consider that extremely desirable. Further along the scale, endstone is super-common so helium-3 is a good fuel, but it means setting up automated mining in the End - also, if you start using helium 3, it's probably best to skip the H2/He3 recipe in favor of the C12/He3 one, since carbon is almost as common in form of coal and the recipe yields double the gross output. Lastly, if you start with few energy hatches, some recipes may not be available to you at the start, though that's more a limitation on the endothermic recipes.

As for building the reactor itself, the big bottleneck is the chrome for the LuV casings. The osmium that goes into the fusion computer can also be an issue if you've got no iridium mines and didn't set up matter fabrication. I've been using Yttrium-Barium-Cuprate for the superconducting wires since I had tons of barite and just enough Yttrium from redstone ore processing.

Fortunately I have three iridium mines in the end of various sizes (asteroids being unreliable for estimating amounts)

I have to say its a lot more involved than I expected, which is good. For you I imagine its going to be particularly interesting, given your experience with a similar reactorcraft project.

 

[Pyure]

Can someone please send me a screenshot of the current turbine rotor tooltip?

Trying to frame Ieldra's wiki-re-write. I'll add it in once peeps have a chance to comment on it.

 

[MigukNamja]

@Pyure
Huge Turbine

Spoiler

Large High Pressure Steam Turbine

Spoiler

Tungstensteel Turbine Blades + Americium Rod

Spoiler

 

[Pyure]

{tons of useful info}

Thanks sir

 

[Pyure]

Rough outline. This is all Ieldra's and Blood Asp's work, with the first paragraph restructured a bit and the flow of information tweaked.

I need to clean up my use of Biogas vs Gas, and add proper formatting instead of janky ====== underlines. Which I'll do tonight or tomorrow, and add it to the wiki.

Spoiler: wikitimes

Optimal Flow and Maximum Output:

Optimal Flow is flow rate required to achieve optimal output for the turbine. Each turbine rotor has a specific optimal flow rate, which is further defined by the type of turbine it is installed in (Steam vs Gas vs Plasma).

Be advised that the "Optimal Steam Flow" displayed on the tooltip for a Turbine Rotor is specific to the Large Steam Turbine. Optimal Flow for all Large Turbine types (including Steam) are calculated as:

Optimal Flow = Nominal Output / Fuel Value​

Nominal Output and Fuel Value are described below.

Nominal Output
========================
Steam: Optimal Steam Flow / 2
HP Steam: Optimal Steam Flow
Gas: Optimal Steam Flow
Plasma: Optimal Steam Flow * 40

Nominal Output Examples
========================
A Large Steam Turbine using a "10000L/sec" turbine item has a nominal output of (10000/20) / 2 = 250 EU/t.
A Large Gas Turbine using a "10000L/sec" turbine item has a nominal output of (10000/20) = 500 EU/t.
A Large Plasma Turbine using a "10000L/sec" turbine item has a nominal output of (10000/20) * 40 = 20000 EU/t.
(Flow is divided by 20 to get the rate in volume per tick instead of volume per second)

Fuel Values (not all listed)
========================
Steam: 0.5 eu/L
Gas: 32 eu/L
Helium Plasma: 4096 eu/L


Optimal Flow Examples
========================
Given Optimal Flow = Nominal Output / Fuel Value

Steam: (10000 / 2) / (0.5) = 10,000 L/s or 500 L/t
Biogas: (10000) / (32) = ~312 L/s or ~16 L/t
Helium Plasma: (10000 * 40) / (4096) = ~98 L/s or ~5 L/t

Actual Output
=======================
A turbine's actual output is Nominal Output * Efficiency%/100. A turbine can work with up to 150% of its optimal flow, but no power will be generated from the surplus. If supplied with less, the turbine will still run, but an additional efficiency modifier will be applied to the output. FlowEfficiency = ActualFlow/OptimalFlow."

 

[MigukNamja]

Speaking of gas, I find it odd that a 'Diesel Generator' doesn't take oil, but takes 'Gasoline'.

Spoiler

Crude oil is closer to diesel fuel than gasoline. Gasoline will wreck a modern diesel engine in no-time flat.

 

[Pyure]

Speaking of gas, I find it odd that a 'Diesel Generator' doesn't take oil, but takes 'Gasoline'.

Spoiler

Crude oil is closer to diesel fuel than gasoline. Gasoline will wreck a modern diesel engine in no-time flat.

Yeah, this is some unification of sorts going on ever since we updated pneumaticcraft. The good news is that gasoline seems to work in any recipes that GT Diesel works in, including (I believe) nitrodiesel.

What's even weirder? PneumaticCraft adds "Diesel" that is NOT a fuel. As far as I know. Unless it works in the liquid compressor. I should test that sometime...

 

[Pyure]

Wiki page updated for Large Turbine.

I forget if my changes publish instantly or they have to go through an approval process first. @SatanicSanta will probably send me a bunch of messages arguing over formatting and presentation. He'll be right on around half those complaints.

Feel free to submit corrections guys, I'll plonk em in if you don't want to.

 

[SatanicSanta]

Wiki page updated for Large Turbine.

I forget if my changes publish instantly or they have to go through an approval process first. @SatanicSanta will probably send me a bunch of messages arguing over formatting and presentation. He'll be right on around half those complaints.

Feel free to submit corrections guys, I'll plonk em in if you don't want to.

They publish instantly, but, if you do not have the proper rights, will not be visible by default; people will need to go to the "latest unreviewed edit" or something. Looks like either you have the permissions, or someone has patrolled your edits.

EDIT: Nope, you don't have those permissions. Someone just patrolled your edits

 

[Tsuko]

---Wikipage---

I would simplify it by removing all L/t numbers and just go straight to L/s as that is what is mostly used when dealing with liquids.
Steam optimal flow is making two unnecessary calculations (divide and multiply by 2, why?) also unnecessary parentheses of fuel values, i.e: 32 is better than (32) imo the optimal flow examples looks more confusing than it has to be.

Also the optimal flow formula is under the example header vs "(Flow is divided by 20 to get the rate in volume per tick instead of volume per second)" which is under the examples, should probably be in the same place or maybe put all the simplified formulas in the correct order above all the examples in one place? so you don't have to look for them all over (including efficiency calc)

So basicly: keep formulas clean of examples and examples clean of formulas, two separated sections? Might look good.