[1.7.10][LISTED] InfiTech 2 Modpack v3.2.21 [HQM][GregTech balanced hard-mode modpack]

[Aiwendil]

Q

ARE YOU FUCKING SERIOUS?!
I was the first one to complain about the naquada generator being overpowered. -> https://github.com/JasonMcRay/InfiTech-1.7/issues/247


Wood is the same as lava it should only be viable early to mid game

With my wood analogy I wanted to show that it's stupid to think that some power sources should not be usable later in the game. It can't be done, you can always just make MORE boilers, more generators.

For me the more variety you have, the better. It' all about balance. I'm fine with making power even out of dirt, if it's balanced against other methods of making power.

I'd say lava LHE, considering it's cost and amount of preparation that has to be done, could use a small nerf. But it's fun to make, fun and satisfyin to use and I don't think we should cringe at lava just because we remember it being op in many 1.6 packs.

 

[Aiwendil]

Yeah that's a shame. Dumb question, what if you put it on the inside of a hollow multiblock, would that work? I believe the turbine's hollow.

I understand the signal would be directed inside and you'd have to transmit it out somehow, I'm just curious.

You mean put the cover on the back of a controller and use, say, redstone conduits to carry the signal to the transmitter? That's insane, but it's worth a try, knowing how flexible gt multiblocks are. The question is will the multiblock form at all?

 

[Pyure]

Q

With my wood analogy I wanted to show that it's stupid to think that some power sources should not be usable later in the game. It can't be done, you can always just make MORE boilers, more generators.

For me the more variety you have, the better. It' all about balance. I'm fine with making power even out of dirt, if it's balanced against other methods of making power.

I'd say lava LHE, considering it's cost and amount of preparation that has to be done, could use a small nerf. But it's fun to make, fun and satisfyin to use and I don't think we should cringe at lava just because we remember it being op in many 1.6 packs.

Have you been following the pollution discussion at all Aiwen? My goal is to add & preserve variety instead of simply saying "that's op, remove it."

Essentially the whole point is to prevent people from scaling obsolete tech into the future eras. You CAN make more boilers, but there would be a penalty to that if you take it too far.

In terms of an exact balance point, that's still up in the air, but I'm thinking a single LHE alone processing lava would generate the very upper limit of pollution before penalties kick in, and any other polluters nearby would tip it over the edge.

Specifically, pretend pollution is stored as X mb of pollution in the air. The air cleans itself of 40 mb of pollution every second. So if your machinery is generating <40mb pollution every second, you're fine, no impact. I would make the LHE generate 40 mb of pollution when processing lava. If you're generating 60 mb of pollution every second, that means 20 is left in the air, which is going to have various penalties including a small performance impact on your machines.

You mean put the cover on the back of a controller and use, say, redstone conduits to carry the signal to the transmitter? That's insane, but it's worth a try, knowing how flexible gt multiblocks are. The question is will the multiblock form at all?

Yep, that's what I'm thinking.

 

[Jason McRay]

If the block will form with cover attached inside, you could attach a Wireless redstone cover on the opposite and transmit the signal wirelessly out.

 

[Pyure]

If the block will form with cover attached inside, you could attach a Wireless redstone cover on the opposite and transmit the signal wirelessly out.

I was thinking same. You *might* need some sort of redstone wire between them, dunno.

 

[Aiwendil]

Other thing to try is Tranvector Interface on the multiblock.

About pollution - isn't this a thing Grrg planned since GT4 but never implemented? The concept itself is great, as it probably the only way to prevent spamming of low-tech gens. But what penalties are you thinking off? Efficiency off all machines in the area or just multiblocks?
Also this sounds like a complex thing to implement. Is it a real possibility or we're just theory crafting?

 

[MigukNamja]

Pahoehoe can be centrifuged with higher efficiency than regular lava for the same byproducts lava produces.

Holy crap. You're right. OK...that just proves my point more. (Nether) Lava in LHE is obscenely OP.

For lava power you need a serious amuont of machines and infrastructure

I don't consider a BC pump, basic piping, and chunk loaders in the Nether 'serious'. To shortcut the whole cross-dimension transport, just build the LHE, Large Turbines, and charge Energy Orbs in the Nether. Visit every so often to swap Energy Orbs.

I'm failing to see how this is balanced at all against IC2 hot coolant production.

Again, the problem is not lava in general, but Nether Lava since it's available in effectively limitless quantities for every little work. I'm wondering if a mod could change Nether Lava to a different kind of lava ala World Gen.

(Sounds like I just assigned myself a project !)

 

[Pyure]

Other thing to try is Tranvector Interface on the multiblock.

About pollution - isn't this a thing Grrg planned since GT4 but never implemented? The concept itself is great, as it probably the only way to prevent spamming of low-tech gens. But what penalties are you thinking off? Efficiency off all machines in the area or just multiblocks?
Also this sounds like a complex thing to implement. Is it a real possibility or we're just theory crafting?

I decided transvector wouldn't work because you wouldn't be able to attach the cover to anything...no?

Pollution: It totally depends on how you implement it. I want to keep it extremely simple. The first release would be as simple as:
1) Every chunk can store a pollution number (1-1000 or whatever)
2) Every machine *can* produce pollution every second, stored in the chunk (we pick and choose which machines produce how much pollution)
3) Every chunk can a) clear X pollution from itself per second, and b) send Y pollution into adjacent chunks (spreading out)
4) Any machine can check the pollution level of the chunk its in to determine if it should have penalties (we pick and choose which machines)

Honestly, I've only been coding GT for a while and I can do everything above easily except store data in a given chunk. And I'm given to understand that's pretty simple too.

You could work around this to an extent by keeping all your polluters far away from your base...which has its own drawbacks. And if those polluters are GT machines, they'll suffer efficiency penalties too. (There's a possibility I can make non-GT machines emit pollution, but I won't be able to make them suffer penalties from it)

 

[Aiwendil]

You wont pump lava fast enough with a BC pump. And what's 'obscenely op' in running back and forth every 20 minutes to swap orbs? Unless youre gonna make a hundred and somehow fit them in 36 slot inventory.

I agree that hot coolant is harder to get than lava, but man, a nuclear reactor is cheap and you can make many. I don't see your point at all.

 

[Pyure]

I actually forgot part of my design.
When pollution dissipates from a chunk, some of it goes into the "dimension", and some of it may even go into the "universe". These are all configurable. Universe-pollution makes zero sense from a reality perspective 99.99% of the time, but some modpacks may want it for balance reasons.

So if you have a machine producing 100 mb/s pollution, the chunk would dissipate 40, retain 60, and send 2 into the "dimension". Machines would run with a pollution level of 60(chunk) + 2 (dimension). So even spreading out your industry wouldn't mitigate the pollution problems completely.

And you might take issue with your server-neighbours being really smoggy. I'd have to be very careful to keep that under consideration

edit: tweaked some numbers to be less alarming.

 

[DarknessShadow]

Again, the problem is not lava in general, but Nether Lava since it's available in effectively limitless quantities for every little work. I'm wondering if a mod could change Nether Lava to a different kind of lava ala World Gen.

(Sounds like I just assigned myself a project !)

That would be nice

I actually forgot part of my design.
When pollution dissipates from a chunk, some of it goes into the "dimension", and some of it may even go into the "universe". These are all configurable. Universe-pollution makes zero sense from a reality perspective 99.99% of the time, but some modpacks may want it for balance reasons.

So if you have a machine producing 100 mb/s pollution, the chunk would dissipate 40, retain 60, and send 2 into the "dimension". Machines would run with a pollution level of 60(chunk) + 2 (dimension). So even spreading out your industry wouldn't mitigate the pollution problems completely.

And you might take issue with your server-neighbours being really smoggy. I'd have to be very careful to keep that under consideration

edit: tweaked some numbers to be less alarming.

"universe pollution" ? wouldnt that also affect other players?

 

[Pyure]

That would be nice


"universe pollution" ? wouldnt that also affect other players?

Yes, that's why I had my last sentence there. I would have to provide extremely precise configuration options here. In MANY servers, people would hate it if someone else's pollution could cause problems for their base.

On the other hand, in many servers, it would be completely awesome. It would force players to interact/chat a bit.

I have no particular preference for myself one way or the other, but I do love having the options.

 

[Nickolas Wood]

Pollution: It totally depends on how you implement it. I want to keep it extremely simple. The first release would be as simple as:
1) Every chunk can store a pollution number (1-1000 or whatever)
2) Every machine *can* produce pollution every second, stored in the chunk (we pick and choose which machines produce how much pollution)
3) Every chunk can a) clear X pollution from itself per second, and b) send Y pollution into adjacent chunks (spreading out)
4) Any machine can check the pollution level of the chunk its in to determine if it should have penalties (we pick and choose which machines)

Honestly, I've only been coding GT for a while and I can do everything above easily except store data in a given chunk. And I'm given to understand that's pretty simple too.

You could work around this to an extent by keeping all your polluters far away from your base...which has its own drawbacks. And if those polluters are GT machines, they'll suffer efficiency penalties too. (There's a possibility I can make non-GT machines emit pollution, but I won't be able to make them suffer penalties from it)

Love it. I have wanted a pollution system for a long time now; it makes sense. The only reason to get more efficient in this game and thus climb the power gen tech tree is if you cannot scale your current solution to the extent you need it.

 

[Pyure]

Love it. I have wanted a pollution system for a long time now; it makes sense. The only reason to get more efficient in this game and thus climb the power gen tech tree is if you cannot scale your current solution to the extent you need it.

I wanna emphasize that all numbers/ideas should be configurable. If you don't want pollution in your game, you'll have the option to turn it off. If you want Lava to generate more pollution, and charcoal more pollution, you can do that too. If you want zero pollution dumped into the dimension, then fine. If you want the Air to cleanse itself faster so you can have twice as many lava gens, go nuts.

I just wanna provide the options.

 

[Nickolas Wood]

IMHO, I don't think lava should be a valid input (fuel) for the LHE.
...
Wouldn't the internals of the LHE clog with solidified lava or at least start build-up from deposits ?

I would agree with this. It should not be a valid input on the grounds of viscosity alone. Maybe a different version of the LHE. Different recipe, more expensive, different form of durability; IE, Over time, the entire multiblock structure gets damaged due to build up. At the end of the durability cycle, all blocks in the multiblock turn into something else and have to be replaced. Grind up these blocks to get some of the materials back.

Something like this is only needed because of the availability of lava in the nether. A different solution could be to make lava "un-pumpable". In this way, coolant would have to be pumped into the lava turning it hot. Over time, this solidifies the surrounding lava making it necessary to move this setup. A heat quantity, a-la rotarycraft, would be necessary to achieve this but it is much more realistic and fits in with the power gen in this pack. Basically, lava is not a direct fuel just like uranium shouldn't be. They are used as heat sources only and the 2 things that can carry this heat is water or coolant.

EDIT: coolant would be required in the nether cause water shouldn't exist there.

 

[MigukNamja]

@Pyure

Re: Pollution

I like it !

 

[Pyure]

I would agree with this. It should not be a valid input on the grounds of viscosity alone. Maybe a different version of the LHE. Different recipe, more expensive, different form of durability; IE, Over time, the entire multiblock structure gets damaged due to build up. At the end of the durability cycle, all blocks in the multiblock turn into something else and have to be replaced. Grind up these blocks to get some of the materials back.

Something like this is only needed because of the availability of lava in the nether. A different solution could be to make lava "un-pumpable". In this way, coolant would have to be pumped into the lava turning it hot. Over time, this solidifies the surrounding lava making it necessary to move this setup. A heat quantity, a-la rotarycraft, would be necessary to achieve this but it is much more realistic and fits in with the power gen in this pack. Basically, lava is not a direct fuel just like uranium shouldn't be. They are used as heat sources only and the 2 things that can carry this heat is water or coolant.

EDIT: coolant would be required in the nether cause water shouldn't exist there.

At the end of the day...lava can be OP but its also fun. People like generating power with lava, and all the interesting logistical challenges that come from it. I wouldn't want to disable lava as a power-gen.

In a perfect world, it would be nice if lava couldn't be stored (ditto steam, hot coolant, etc). These fluids should be cooling down over time, even in well-insulated containers. I'd love it if you had to "use it while its hot". But that's really outside the scope of reasonable implementation.

 

[DarknessShadow]

and all the interesting logistical challenges that come from it.

I wouldn't call a dimensional transceiver a logistical challenge.

 

[Pyure]

I wouldn't call a dimensional transceiver a logistical challenge.

Well there were a few more parts than that sir. And today I wouldn't call it a challenge, but as a new player, I found that stuff really fascinating as I recall

 

[Blood Asp]

Damn god you spammers... So much to read. About the lava -> steam gen. I allready nerved it by a lot. Originally the HP Lavaboiler was 1L Lava = 150L Steam, now it is 100L Steam. The LHE can produce max 80L Steam from 1L Lava. Also i did not lower the cent energy cost for pahoehoe lava, but rised it for the normal lava. Also i usually see transfer beween nether and overworld something that sould be difficult to automate.

Also if i calculated it right, a Ender Thermic pump must be moved about every 12h to supply a single LHE with enough Lava to make SHS. And moving a pump absolutely can't be automated.

Also @Pyure , i had some ideas about the pullution implementation (how to code, that is my main issue here) yesterday. I will write you a PM later once i have it written down.