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Guswut

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Jul 29, 2019
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Again it saddens me that hard work is reduced to such a degree. If you are a mod writter, I believe, you should be paid for your skills and should not just make a hobby out of them. With how bad the world is not seeing people getting wealth for their work saddens me.

If they want to make money, they should be writing their own game, or they should try charging for their mod. Very few mod authors are good enough programmers for the former, and very few mod authors have mods good enough to be worth paying anything that'd cover all of the associated costs.

People should be paid for their skills, but it need not be monetary payment. But if you require as much, feel free to donate heavily.
 

Dafuq?

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I am looking forward to what happens with plus+ as well since the mod authors have already tried everything they could short of entering a court room and it had no effect. All the drm they have thrown their way has been defeated by the goon programers and all of the DMCA take downs have had little effect. Personally I hope it goes to court to settle all the non-sense once and for all.
I'm tempted to try and calculate how many adfly clicks they need to pay the lawyers.
 

jumpfight5

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No, you are not. But you may want to make sure to read this link: http://wiki.pluspluspack.com/index.php?title=Copyright and see if that makes sense with what you want.

Assuming that data is correct, we'll see a fairly massive upset in the modding community. We will likely end up losing a few mods from authors that have, pardon my (Google Translated) French, tenir leur crosse (let's just pretend that said "stick up their butt", alrighty?). The rest of the mod authors will adapt, and that'll be that.

If it is not correct, then let's sit back and get ready to enjoy the fireworks!

Hmm, sounds better (and more french) like this:
" We will likely end up losing a few mods from authors that have" un croissant dans le trou de la crosse.

Much more Francoisalicious, if I do say so myself.
 

RetroGamer1224

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Then if that is the case keep it private. Your skills in life should be helping you pay bills and putting food on your plate. I stopped playing Corruption of Champions because I felt I was using the author of the game by not donating.
 

Guswut

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croissant

There we go! Deliciously French.

Then if that is the case keep it private. Your skills in life should be helping you pay bills and putting food on your plate. I stopped playing Corruption of Champions because I felt I was using the author of the game by not donating.
If a mod author wants to keep their mod private, sure, let them.
If they, instead, decide they want to release it, then that is their choice. When you put something up on the internet, it is going to be used and abused.
In this case, it appears to be the former, and not the latter.
 

Milaha

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Again it saddens me that hard work is reduced to such a degree. If you are a mod writter, I believe, you should be paid for your skills and should not just make a hobby out of them. With how bad the world is not seeing people getting wealth for their work saddens me.
No one can make money off of their mods as it stands now. The amount of income adfly generates is piddly, almost inconsequential, not one single mod author cites this as a reason for their opposition to modpacks that I have ever seen. It is an issue entirely created by uninformed fans. Unless mojang allows moders to sell their mods (which will NEVER happen for a whole host of reasons), Modding is and will always be a hobby.
 

slay_mithos

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Yeah I read that earlier. I'm in no way a legal expert, so I can't judge if it's correct, but it totally makes sense to me. I just wish we wouldn't need lawsuits for mod developers to come to their senses.

EDIT:
I'm not french, but I live in france and I'm quite fluent... Let me put it this way: Don't trust google translations :D
You know, the reverse can be true too.
No need for all that if every pack provided enough credits to the authors.

You guys cite the plus plus pack, right, then here you go, the download page: http://pluspluspack.com/modpacks/plus/
As you can see, they only provide the names. No mention of the authors, no link to the threads for those mods, just a plain name.

Both sides have their arguments, both sides are right to an extend, that's why the argument lasts for so long.
 

RetroGamer1224

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Sad. Well I guess I am just an bitter old person. Btw I mean wealth in terms of coding. Coding should be something more precious, more valuable and not just a hobby. Guess I am a dying breed where when you learn something it is ment to aid you in some way.
 

Guswut

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Jul 29, 2019
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You know, the reverse can be true too.
No need for all that if every pack provided enough credits to the authors.

You guys cite the plus plus pack, right, then here you go, the download page: http://pluspluspack.com/modpacks/plus/
As you can see, they only provide the names. No mention of the authors, no link to the threads for those mods, just a plain name.

Both sides have their arguments, both sides are right to an extend, that's why the argument lasts for so long.

Assuming their copyright page (http://wiki.pluspluspack.com/index.php?title=Copyright) is correct, then they didn't even need that. You can Google the name to find the mod in almost all cases. But why would you? They could post the author, a link, and a begging image of a sad puppy demanding donations, and they'd surely get almost the same amount of people that disregard all of that, download the pack, and enjoy the mods.

Sad. Well I guess I am just an bitter old person. Btw I mean wealth in terms of coding. Coding should be something more precious, more valuable and not just a hobby. Guess I am a dying breed where when you learn something it is ment to aid you in some way.
You aren't thinking about it from the perspective of "you cannot stop people from doing X without destroying the system entirely and rebuilding it with Big Brother installed".
Besides that, though, coding is easy enough to do for most anyone who puts their mind to it. Take a look through the MineCraft mod forum to see how many two-bit coders there are out there who beg people to use their mod.
Making a good mod does not mean you should make money off of it. It means that you should likely use your mod in your portfolio, and be getting an actually job programming, and keeping your mod a hobby.
 
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jumpfight5

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And even if they put up mods for sale, I'd never *never* buy them. You can put up RP2 for sale for all I care (a mod I like :p), but I would never pay money for it.

Yeah I sound selfish and stuff, but that's just how I roll. I don't pay for apps, I don't donate to servers, if there's music that I like and it's free? Yes.
This being said, I won't steal copyrighted stuff, I just won't get it.

If these modders actually desperately needed money, they'd get a job or sell their computers. It's kind of like: I really like the Harry Potter series, so I've devised several alternate ends and adventures Harry and his friends have been through not detailed in the book. If you really wanted money, you could go author and write your own books (write your own game), but I doubt many people would actually buy them.

Not trying to be selfish or mean, but there are better things I can do with my (extremely limited) money. Would I like to donate to these servers who make Minecraft fun, or the modders? Well, yes. That doesn't mean I can, and the modders should realize that their mods are being used in the minority of minecraft. No 51% of people play Minecraft with a mod, not even something as simple as optifine.

If I were to put up a mod, it would be cool if I could get 5 bucks twice a year, but in no way would it help me live, maybe it could get me a meal or two at the most. Then again, I'd be the person who (if they didn't feel like working on it anymore) to just stop it right there and hand off the production to someone else.

Well...I'm not sure what the point of this post was for, if someone wouldn't mind explaining it to me I would appreciate it.
 
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Milaha

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Sad. Well I guess I am just an bitter old person. Btw I mean wealth in terms of coding. Coding should be something more precious, more valuable and not just a hobby. Guess I am a dying breed where when you learn something it is ment to aid you in some way.

Coding is the new carpentry or automotive repair. Some people do it as a job, others have garage workshops where they do it as a hobby simply because they enjoy it. Some do both. The existence of one does not cheapen the other.
 

Guswut

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Jul 29, 2019
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And even if they put up mods for sale, I'd never *never* buy them.

That is the heart of the issue. Almost no one would buy a mod for a game they've already bought, even if it was legal for them to sell their mods as such, because that isn't how modding works in most cases.

That's why mods are a hobby activity, and we should all be grateful mod authors keep doing it, and we should donate if possible, but if nothing else at least say "thank you" to them.
 

Dafuq?

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Jul 29, 2019
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Hmm, sounds better (and more french) like this:
" We will likely end up losing a few mods from authors that have" un croissant dans le trou de la crosse.

Much more Francoisalicious, if I do say so myself.

Just in case any of you ever travels to France: "crosse" can only be translated with butt in the sense of the side of a rifle you preferably want to be on. The most common use for the word "crosse" is "hockey stick". The word you're looking for is "le cul"...

Not trying to be a smartass, this is essential vocabulary in France, you might need it one day...

EDIT: I was just asking myself: Did you guys have second thoughts about playing "Lacrosse" when reading that google translation? :D
 
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Daemonblue

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Jul 29, 2019
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No, you are not. But you may want to make sure to read this link: http://wiki.pluspluspack.com/index.php?title=Copyright and see if that makes sense with what you want.

Assuming that data is correct, we'll see a fairly massive upset in the modding community. We will likely end up losing a few mods from authors that have, pardon my (Google Translated) French, tenir leur crosse (let's just pretend that said "stick up their butt", alrighty?). The rest of the mod authors will adapt, and that'll be that.

If it is not correct, then let's sit back and get ready to enjoy the fireworks!

Wow that link has so much wrong. First, let's start with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use . His example doesn't apply in that the case was about if people had the right to modify games they had purchased. This is NOT the same as distributing mods made by other people. Also, due to the limitations of fair use, distributing a modpack can be said to NEVER fall under fair use. In the link above if you read the law you'll see this line:
for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research
Since mod packs for minecraft will effectively never fall under those criteria they would not be protected by fair use.

Their explanation of derivative copyright protection is also laughable. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derivative_work . That page mentions the case brought up on the pluspluspack wiki and explains that they couldn't hold a copyright over the character in the toy model due to it being based on a character whom someone else had a copyright for and NOTHING ELSE. Basically, the design couldn't be copyrighted by them because they brought nothing new to the table.

Here's a small part from the derivative work link posted above:
A typical example of a derivative work received for registration in the Copyright Office is one that is primarily a new work but incorporates some previously published material. This previously published material makes the work a derivative work under the copyright law. To be copyrightable, a derivative work must be different enough from the original to be regarded as a "new work" or must contain a substantial amount of new material. Making minor changes or additions of little substance to a preexisting work will not qualify the work as a new version for copyright purposes. The new material must be original and copyrightable in itself. Titles, short phrases, and format, for example, are not copyrightable.

Basically, as long as something either changes the original work enough to be regarded as a "new" work or adds a lot of new content it can be copyrighted. This means mods such as Redpower 2 and IC2 could effectively be copyrighted as derivative works of minecraft, while something such as obsidian pressure plates wouldn't.

You put all of this together and what you get is Mojang has copyright of their own work and controls distribution of their work due to holding copyright over it. They can choose to give permission for others to adapt their work, but for modders they don't actually need permission to modify the code of the game they own. In doing the modifications modders can create a derivative work that, while based on the original work, can transform it enough and be able to have their own copyright over their mod for the game. In such a case, the modders then have a copyright over their coding and can choose who can distribute said coding. In other words, only mod packs that add very little content could be said to be "legal" due to low content mods not changing the game substantially. Throwing a bunch of mods together into a pack does NOT change the mods substantially and thus a modpack cannot receive the same benefits of a derivative work and thus not be copyrightable and, as mentioned above, does not fall under fair use. The only thing left then would them distributing copyrighted material against the will of the creator.

Now yes, it gets even more complicated than that if you want to go onto a massive debate, but quite frankly in the end there's nothing one can really do without wasting tons of time, effort, and money for what might amount to a paltry gain and bad press. Therefore this leans more towards a matter of respect for the mod authors and, quite frankly, going against their wishes is a dick move.
 

Guswut

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Jul 29, 2019
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Now yes, it gets even more complicated than that if you want to go onto a massive debate, but quite frankly in the end there's nothing one can really do without wasting tons of time, effort, and money for what might amount to a paltry gain and bad press. Therefore this leans more towards a matter of respect for the mod authors and, quite frankly, going against their wishes is a dick move.


Your argument that it is a "dick move" to go against their wishes is irrational, as they are asking for something that has utterly crippled the modding community of MineCraft. At this point, we should have access to thousands of mods, easily added and removed, and all working together well as we have APIs that can handle that, and we have launchers that are designed around that concept (and would have moved in the direction if not for the bottleneck).

Are there any other modding communities that have this issue? The few modding communities I've gotten into were all extremely open, and anyone that tried to restrict the usage of their mod was laughed at, and/or ignored, as that attitude ends up getting you left behind.

In either regard, it is not something that you or I are going to change on this forum. It is something that is going to change by people pushing and seeing what happens. If a mod author decides to take legal action against them, then we'll see what happens in court. Otherwise, the community is likely going to adapt, or they'll end up not getting enough traffic to make it worth sticking with their goal.

Personally, it feels like it's going to be another paradigm shift because they appear to have the energy and time to really get this settled.


Then I guess my standard for things is too much. I was born in the wrong time period.


As were we all, if we don't get the human digitalization started soon!
 

Dafuq?

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Jul 29, 2019
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Has the invasion begun?
I wasn't thinking of invasions, let's just imagine you're on vacation in France and you meet this cute French girl, and you want to make a compliment...
You will think of me and be thankful... or maybe not, depends on the girl...
 

Milaha

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Jul 29, 2019
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don't actually need permission to modify the code of the game they own.

Shame they do not own Minecraft then. The software world works quite differently than other worlds due to this fact (no one ever owns software other than the rights holder, instead they purchase a highly limited licenses to use it in exactly the way that the rights holder specifies). Convince me they can modify MC code without owning it.

Now yes, it gets even more complicated than that if you want to go onto a massive debate, but quite frankly in the end there's nothing one can really do without wasting tons of time, effort, and money for what might amount to a paltry gain and bad press. Therefore this leans more towards a matter of respect for the mod authors and, quite frankly, going against their wishes is a dick move.

Goons are dicks. Modders can be dicks in their 'wishes'. It would be better for everyone if no one was a dick, but we do not live in that world.
 

Daemonblue

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The case was about modding games with a game genie. In other words it's directly related to software and games, which was why they used that as an example. The problem is their example didn't match what they were defending.

And yes, I know everyone can be a dick regarding this issue, but I think it's better to listen to someone's wishes and make them look bad than to make yourself look bad for not doing it and then mocking them.
 
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