Why isn't Factorization compared to TE or IC2?

[PoisonWolf]

I don't know what some of you are grumbling about. I love factorization, even if I'm using Gregtech.

Routers + Barrels alone synergizes with so many machines and helps with processing stacks of items. For example, I can use a router to literally increase the input capability of an industrial grinder from the annoying dual slots. This is particularly useful if you're smelting stuff like Tungsten which takes forever. With a router + barrel, I can go up to 64x64 tungsten dusts as opposed to 2x64 tungsten dusts.

Routers alone makes factorization worth it.

 

[AlanEsh]

I feel like factorization is also too much of a hybrid between magic and tech. Though, I have so much lead and silver that I wish I had something more to do with factorization.

Make 10,000 mirrors, 1000 solar boilers, and 1000 Hobbyist steam engines.
Enjoy mediocre MJ power output on the sunniest of days.

 

[schyman]

How does furnace heater + furnaces compare to steam boiler + steam oven?

 

[DREVL]

How does furnace heater + furnaces compare to steam boiler + steam oven?

I don't know if there are enough >'s to best decribe how Steam boiler+oven> Heater+furnace.[DOUBLEPOST=1375714484][/DOUBLEPOST]as ineffective as factorization goes compared to some other mods, it still is epic when used by itself, which is probably most important to a mod author. Even still, I find routers as the top shelf of input output automation. Barrels are huge. But just like any other mod, I only use a small portion of any of the mods that come in mod packs because they all do alot of things poorly, some things ok, and a few things excellent. Put them together and I feed the beast. I feed the beast well.

 

[Runo]

3. Dunno, personally haven't used them.
4. A maximum array of mirrors can produce a not insignificant amount of mj/t because these mirrors are pointed at solar boilers which produce steam which anything steam powered can use, such as steam engines. If you're not using silver for other things, why NOT make one? Sure it rains or is night about 60% of the time, but when the sun is up it is otherwise free power and a productive way to keep excess silver from clogging your inventories.

I'd like confirmation from someone as to how computationally intensive solar boilers and mirrors are. When playing on a server, the only time I experienced screen tearing was when looking at one of those things. Given that they generate a whopping 44mj/t for, I think, 1200 silver, so they are not resource friendly and don't scale well compared to other means of power in a mod pack. For comparison, if they are doing calculations similar to ic2 Solars, they are almost half as efficient per in-game entity. Compact Solars were made in response to laggy ic2 solar arrays. I know they generate steam like once a second, probably to mitigate some of the lag, but I'd wager it to be an irresponsible drag on server resources.

It would be nice if someone with knowledge on servers and tick rates and whatnot could confirm/deny the drag of factorization solar arrays.

 

[Spacetime Mogul]

Just my opinion:

I like factorization a lot, like the barrels, like the router, and even like it's ore processing mechanic.
No, it is not as easy to set up as other ore processing systems, and, yes, it is pretty expensive to build, but I like the logical steps that are not only a bit less loosely based on realworld ore processing but also allow you to stop at any point in the processing chain, take your ores and just smelt them with the bonus yield you got.
I do not (yet) use FC's ore processing for all my ores, I just use it for my rarer ores, the ones that I do not or do never have enough of - and it's wonderful for that.

I believe that there are three key issues that irritate people when they first try to use FC's ore processing - the expensiveness, the hard to automate mixer and the crystalization process taking 20 minutes.
I do not believe though that these issues are the reason why FC is not compared to TE or IC2.
I believe that the reason for that is that Factorization doesn't feel complete.
If you go the TE road you get all the machines you need to work together with a bunch of mods, making TE nearly indispensable when working with Buildcraft, Railcraft and/or Forestry.
If you go the IC2 road you get access to a whole ecosystem of mods that not only give you all the machines you need and all the power sources you need to power them, but also various tools and accessories.
If you go the FC road though you practically only get the expensive, hard to automate and slow ore processing. Most of the other stuff in the mod does not need those machines and thus doesn't feel like it really belongs to that ecosystem.

After having laid quiet for some months, Factorization is changing again though, and some of those changes have already positioned it much better then it was before.
Now I can use solar turbines with Railcraft steam and can produce steam for Railcraft machines using solar steam boilers; and there's a bunch of other new stuff that I haven't tried out yet.
So, I believe that Factorization may grow to an extent where it will provide the player with a more complete infrastructure and give him enough incentives to actually use it.
When (or if) Factorization has reached that state people might be starting to compare it to TE and IC2; before that point any comparison between the three can only target isolated parts of the mods, never the whole experience of using the respective mod, as Factorization is not yet complete enough to offer comparable content.

 

[KirinDave]

Given that they generate a whopping 44mj/t for, I think, 1200 silver

What else, praytell, are you doing with your silver? What's important to note is not how it scales out, but how it scales early on. You can very easily get an explosion and maintenance free ~3mj/t early on. Even one mirror will make MJ.

Basically factorization gives you a route to early steam, but lets you replace that mirror array later. And anyone who thinks the steam furnace is great has not put in the minimal investment in a furnace heater and router cluster. It's cheap compared to the furnace and can run much faster. Think about how to lay out the furnaces and heaters to get at least 2 (and in some cases 3) adjacent heaters for overclocking.

Compact Solars were made in response to laggy ic2 solar arrays. I know they generate steam like once a second, probably to mitigate some of the lag, but I'd wager it to be an irresponsible drag on server resources.

The factorization mirrors don't work like this. IC2 solar lag is caused by an inordinate number of energy packets traversing a huge network. Factorization doesn't have this problem as it uses a unified network model. CompactSolars does reduce the number of ticking blocks in a chunk, but it also compresses all those IC2 energy packets into larger chunks to reduce IC2 energy networks.

IC2 is one of the most expensive energy networks to run. It's not because its coders are bad, but rather because the model involves moving quantized energy units around a physical network rather than treating the network as an energy sink and extracting there. It does this to do things like model power line burn and wire failure.

Note that buildcraft's model has recently improved, and so it's no longer slower than IC2 (if it ever was, reports and my profiling varied wildly on this).

It would be nice if someone with knowledge on servers and tick rates and whatnot could confirm/deny the drag of factorization solar arrays.

Haven't I been doing this? I can both read the code and tell you that after months of running servers with factorization systems, we never see them come up. They are not expensive compared to, say, engines. But Factorization is designed such that you're probably never going to build epically huge solar arrays in conjunction with Railcraft. A small solid-fueled boiler can easily outperform them, so once you can build that your solar network will probably be moved to an outpost.

 

[Siro]

Since I forgot to mention it, furnace heaters and batteries conduct charge power automatically, so wiring between adjacent blocks is unnecessary.

 

[Runo]

Haven't I been doing this? I can both read the code and tell you that after months of running servers with factorization systems, we never see them come up. They are not expensive compared to, say, engines. But Factorization is designed such that you're probably never going to build epically huge solar arrays in conjunction with Railcraft. A small solid-fueled boiler can easily outperform them, so once you can build that your solar network will probably be moved to an outpost.

That's what I was asking about, I hadn't seen you mention that yet as I don't scour the forums hourly and thought this was a nice relevant place to put it. I have not seen that info yet anywhere nor in this thread, no need to get hostile about the request. Thanks for the info, good to know that my initial thoughts on it were wrong. I guess the screen tearing might be related to some other graphical/client computationally intensive calculation being done on the mirrors.

Still, as you kinda point out in the end of your paragraph, the power doesn't scale well so that's another check on the list as to why people don't see it as competitive to the other big mods: It takes days to mine enough silver to match a quarter of the power output of a full steam boiler or a few thermal/charcoal gens. All this talk about furnace heaters is kinda redundant if you are using ic2 anyway since the induction furnace is a god among ovens. Basically, if FZ can do it, something else can do it better.

Lastly, as an ic2/gt user, I use lots of silver for electrum to maximize circuit production, which is very useful early. Of course, you get a lot eventually, but at that point its just not that beneficial. 15 full sized quarries later, I had about 10k silver with all resources going through a GT grinder. It would have taken me a week of manual mining to power a quarry with FZ mirrors, when I had that power output on day 1 with oil and boilers. Its just not worth the headache.

 

[KirinDave]

Lastly, as an ic2/gt user, I use lots of silver for electrum to maximize circuit production, which is very useful early. Of course, you get a lot eventually, but at that point its just not that beneficial. 15 full sized quarries later, I had about 10k silver with all resources going through a GT grinder. It would have taken me a week of manual mining to power a quarry with FZ mirrors, when I had that power output on day 1 with oil and boilers. Its just not worth the headache.

Centrifuge lava mang. If you have GT then Factorization is "basically free".

 

[ShneekeyTheLost]

The only problem with solar boilers is that they don't work 60% of the time. Unlike MJ, Steam is not going to be as compact to store. About the best you're going to get is an RC tank, and even that is going to eat up cubic. It is also very iron-intensive and requires plates, which means a Rolling Machine. So this isn't early game.

Sure, Solar + Steam Furnace can crank out a hell of a lot at a time. Assuming it's during the day and not raining. Otherwise, I hope you've got some 9 x 9 tanks available, because that steam furnace is a hog when it comes to steam. Normally not a problem if you are just supplying it off of a 36 HP boiler, but significantly more of a problem when you don't always have steam 'on demand'.

And to store as MJ, you're going to want something a bit more than Hobbyist Steam Engines. I mean, come on. If I was going to use Hobbyist, I'd just hook it up to a tree farm. Come on. You're going to want at least Commercial, which means iron plates, which means a Rolling Machine, which means you already need power to make your infrastructure.

And for silver? Turn your Modular Powersuits recipes to Thermal Expansion versions. Watch as your silver slips away in wiring, which is a component in every ding-dang piece you ever have to craft as a part of that mod.

Also, instead of Magnum Torches, make the chandeliers. 64 x 64 of 'no spawning'. Considering that is in excess of the spawning radius of hostile mobs, it basically shuts down all mob spawning from within your facility. Ever.

 

[KirinDave]

The only problem with solar boilers is that they don't work 60% of the time. Unlike MJ, Steam is not going to be as compact to store. About the best you're going to get is an RC tank, and even that is going to eat up cubic. It is also very iron-intensive and requires plates, which means a Rolling Machine. So this isn't early game.

Yeah but this doesn't matter that much. The solar option is for early game and it's cheap for what it does.

And to store as MJ, you're going to want something a bit more than Hobbyist Steam Engines. I mean, come on. If I was going to use Hobbyist, I'd just hook it up to a tree farm. Come on. You're going to want at least Commercial, which means iron plates, which means a Rolling Machine, which means you already need power to make your infrastructure.

it is not about scaling.

And for silver? Turn your Modular Powersuits recipes to Thermal Expansion versions. Watch as your silver slips away in wiring, which is a component in every ding-dang piece you ever have to craft as a part of that mod.

Honestly I feel like iron is way more pressured in early game than even TE MPS recipes do to silver. Especially with the slag furnace making silver and lead so available.

 

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Yeah but this doesn't matter that much. The solar option is for early game and it's cheap for what it does.

It actually does kinda matter in the early game. You don't want to have to wait to dawn when you are resource-capped. So unless you are storing steam somehow, your entire processing shuts off at night.

it is not about scaling.

You're right, it's not. It's about viability. I mean, what is it you are trying to do here? If you are hooking it up to one or more machines directly, then they shut off at night. If you are trying to store up excess production during the day to use at night, then you'll either need higher-tier Redstone Energy Cell or you'll need higher-tier and massively iron intensive Iron Tanks. Well, unless you have Mekanism. Then you'll need more cubic but less resources.

Honestly I feel like iron is way more pressured in early game than even TE MPS recipes do to silver. Especially with the slag furnace making silver and lead so available.

Yea, but the problem is the Slag Furnace is an unnecessary stepping stone. Sure, it produces a bit more than a vanilla furnace, and costs nothing but cobble. I haven't used a vanilla furnace to smelt raw ores since AE came out with the Grind Stone. And it won't help squat with pulverized metals. So it's a wash.

 

[SpitefulFox]

maybe this has changed in more recent versions, but the biggest detractor against factorization, to me, is its not a one-stop ore processing shop. in 1.47 it could only handle like 9 ore types, meaning you have to set up another system for different ores anyway.

How is that any worst than any other processor? Macerators can't handle Lead Ore either. Nothing but the Infernal Furnace can increase output from Cinnabar Ore. Nothing but the Smeltery can increase outputs from Aluminum or Ore Gravel. Are those strikes against Pulverizer/Macerators?

 

[PhilHibbs]

Why bother with Routers when I have Applied Energistics? Why bother with Barrels when I have DSU's? Honestly, there is zero use for Factorization.

This and this?

 

[Runo]

How is that any worst than any other processor? Macerators can't handle Lead Ore either. Nothing but the Infernal Furnace can increase output from Cinnabar Ore. Nothing but the Smeltery can increase outputs from Aluminum or Ore Gravel. Are those strikes against Pulverizer/Macerators?

what? lead ore works fine, at least in GT. also, cinnabar and aluminum can be processed in any furnace, albeit without doubling, which doesnt matter considering their lack of usefulness.

FZ only works for vanilla, silver, and lead, and if i recall, not even silk touched vanilla diamond, coal, and redstone ore. Every other ore doubler can handle at least double the amount of inputs plus nether ores. Add the fact that FZ automation and infrastructure is the most complex of all ore processors and you've relegated it to obscurity.

I guess it might not matter much if you dont use copper, tin, tungsten, nuclear ores, and platinum. all a matter of perspective I guess. I'm OCD about having all ores of all types processed. I'd go nuts seeing a bunch of monazit or tungsten ore in my AE.

 

[DoctorOr]

FZ only works for vanilla, silver, and lead, and if i recall, not even silk touched vanilla diamond, coal, and redstone ore.

Another person arguing from sheer ignorance.

FZ triples iron, gold, copper, tin, and silver. It doesn't process lead ore, but gives same amount of lead as silver when processing silver ore, leaving lead ore to be processed by some other method.

In the Unleashed pack, FZ is the only 3x ore processing available. Adding GT gives you a much higher entry cost and much higher energy cost for a slightly higher output in less time. Adding mekanism is still a bit more expensive, but not as much as GT. FZ ore processing can be interrupted at any stage to provide less than 3x output (but still at least 2x) if desiring quicker returns. Ore processing can start with as little as a single mirror and progress to more with the processing profits.

FZs processing of silk touched vanilla items is roughly the same as Fortune III, with the notable exception of coal which FZ is the absolute best processing, giving 6.5x total output.

FZ does suffer from a largely incompatible energy system with few generator choices and the initial cost of. The ore processing is weighted all in the first machine (the grinder) and not back loaded or spread evenly.

Every other ore doubler can handle at least double the amount of inputs plus nether ores.

As already explained, you're simply and absolutely wrong about what it can process. Furthermore, since "procesing" nether ore consists of smelting it to its overworld equivalents, that could be done in vanilla.

 

[Runo]

As already explained, you're simply and absolutely wrong about what it can process. Furthermore, since "procesing" nether ore consists of smelting it to its overworld equivalents, that could be done in vanilla.

Well from an FZ perspective I guess its not a big deal, but nether ores give more mats in ic2/gt machines as nether ores, and I believe TE machines as well. Nether ores have a lower spawn rate than the overworld and the bonus offsets that.

I tend to use all the mods so FZ's processing shortcomings are a significant issue for me. Setting up an isolated ore processing stream for half the ore types, automating it, and building a separate power system for it just isn't worth the opportunity cost. If you're deep into fz and have stuff for it, it makes sense, but otherwise it doesn't. That's the whole point of this damn thread. FZ doesn't work as well with many other mods factored into a hybrid system, where the other mods do. The power doesn't scale to the needs of the other mods and the ore processing system requires you to set up a parallel for other mod's ore types. You can't use it as a base system unless you're a masochist or use a small mod subset..

 

[DoctorOr]

Well from an FZ perspective I guess its not a big deal, but nether ores give more mats in ic2/gt machines as nether ores, and I believe TE machines as well. Nether ores have a lower spawn rate than the overworld and the bonus offsets that.

No, it does not. Not in IC2 and not in TE. If you use GT, then of course it outputs more. Its designed that way to make sure you only use GTs system. Its also not relevant for unleashed.

 

[BanzaiBlitz]

Personally, I'm a fan of FZ utilization. Once a system for automation is set up properly, time involvement instantly becomes moot, barring running low and shortcutting some supplies accordingly. Pain in the tail or not, mixing in AE, Routers, and now Logi Pipes again, the FZ system is good stuff. It's fine solo, but like any mod in the pack, cherry pick for the features you want. Routers accomplish some things NO OTHER MOD CAN DO and should not be discounted. Wrath lamps are just convenience.

And with all this talk of FZ, I have to ask.

What the heck is the Leyden Jar about?

Admittedly, I have been avoiding googling it.