Why don't people like IC2 anymore?

[Dorque]

Or both...

Possibly neither; I believe the salient part of the statement was "I don't know"

I like you, but don't think I don't see what you're implying and we shall have none of that. This thread is about IC2

On topic, I have always been given to understand that BTW defines itself as a total conversion, not a mod, and as such does not play well with other mods by definition.

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[Mevansuto]

Possibly neither; I believe the salient part of the statement was "I don't know"

I like you, but don't think I don't see what you're implying and we shall have none of that. This thread is about IC2

On topic, I have always been given to understand that BTW defines itself as a total conversion, not a mod, and as such does not play well with other mods by definition.

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I honestly wasn't implying anything, just reinforcing we know little about him really. But I can see how that could be misinterpreted.

Good to know I'm liked though.

 

[Dorque]

I honestly wasn't implying anything, just reinforcing we know little about him really. But I can see how that could be misinterpreted.

Good to know I'm liked though.

Fair enough I figured it worked whether you were meaning it or not, since it also served as a caution to any of our... more excitable members who might take it out of context. Truth is, I saw the second meaning easily because it's what I was thinking, on some level =P

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[Merendel]

I enjoyed IC2 back in the day but frankly its ageing and I dont really like many of the changes that have been made to the recent versions. In particular the new version of the power system is particularly tedious. It does not help that greg has been added to the dev team and his grubby fingerprints are clear to see all over many of the changes. and yes I'm one of the crowd that no longer trusts him or his mods after that little incident between GT and TiCO last year. While I cant see the rest of the team leting him get away with those shinanigains agian I cant help but feel put off by his ideas of game balance creeping into the mod. never really agreed with some of his more tedious changes in the first place anyway even if I enjoyed the GT content.

When you add to all the minor anoyances with the new form of IC2 with the fact that many mods do exactly what I used to use IC2 for but in a much more compleat package... well I dont realy feel much of a loss when IC2 is missing other than pangs of nostalgia. TE3 has prety much replaced all of IC2 and a good chunk of BC for my builds even before I moved to a pack lacking those 2 mods.

 

[immibis]

I enjoyed IC2 back in the day but frankly its ageing and I dont really like many of the changes that have been made to the recent versions. In particular the new version of the power system is particularly tedious. It does not help that greg has been added to the dev team and his grubby fingerprints are clear to see all over many of the changes. and yes I'm one of the crowd that no longer trusts him or his mods after that little incident between GT and TiCO last year. While I cant see the rest of the team leting him get away with those shinanigains agian I cant help but feel put off by his ideas of game balance creeping into the mod. never really agreed with some of his more tedious changes in the first place anyway even if I enjoyed the GT content.

I hate to be the one to bring this up yet again, but most of the changes were not done by Greg.[DOUBLEPOST=1389769812][/DOUBLEPOST]

It isn't a matter of buffing IC2 to make it viable. It is already powerful enough. In fact, one of the more powerful mods out there. It was the pioneer of electric tools, it has armor that can make you literally invincible, and it has UUM for making darn near anything in the game a renewable resource (given enough energy).

The problem with it is that it is horridly punishing and punitive. However, if that was taken away, you'd almost have to tone some things down, because it would suddenly become WinMode.

Balance is a complex thing. It is rarely as easy as tweaking a few numbers. To bring IC2 into balance, it would require a massive overhaul of some fundamental concepts and principles inherent in the mod design.

Are you saying that "powerful and dangerous" is less balanced than "medium-power but completely safe"?

 

[snooder]

Are you saying that "powerful and dangerous" is less balanced than "medium-power but completely safe"?

Quite possibly he is. In the sense that a consistent and even experience is more balanced than wildly swinging from underpowered to crazily high powered options.

 

[immibis]

Quite possibly he is. In the sense that a consistent and even experience is more balanced than wildly swinging from underpowered to crazily high powered options.

I thought he meant things are both underpowered and crazily high powered at the same time, not that some thing were underpowered and some things were crazily high powered. Maybe both are true.

 

[Sarda]

I hate to be the one to bring this up yet again, but most of the changes were not done by Greg.

It's not Gregg thats changing IC2 to be closer to Gregtech, its IC2 that realized the only people who still use it are Gregtech users they're pushed it closer to Gregtech from what I can see.

 

[Dee_Twenty]

It's not Gregg thats changing IC2 to be closer to Gregtech, its IC2 that realized the only people who still use it are Gregtech users they're pushed it closer to Gregtech from what I can see.

Except for all the people who have since dropped IC2 because they dislike Gregtech and don't approve of IC2 becoming Greglite.

 

[Yusunoha]

in my honest opinion, they could've better declared IC2 as dead, and just start a whole new mod centered around IC2+Gregtech, perhaps IndustrialTech?
because I think alot of the hate on IC2 exp comes from old IC2 users coming back, but finding all these new chances to be too much gregtech and hating on it because of that.

if they'd have chosen to start a whole new mod it could've perhaps given them some more room to try out whole new things, instead of still being stuck to the old IC2 style

 

[Alcheya]

in my honest opinion, they could've better declared IC2 as dead, and just start a whole new mod centered around IC2+Gregtech, perhaps IndustrialTech?
because I think alot of the hate on IC2 exp comes from old IC2 users coming back, but finding all these new chances to be too much gregtech and hating on it because of that.

if they'd have chosen to start a whole new mod it could've perhaps given them some more room to try out whole new things, instead of still being stuck to the old IC2 style

I think the "newfound hatred" stems from when Greg joined the team some months back, people went into panic mode fearing their beloved IC2 would become gregtech-2. Everyone was basically told to "calm down" and that industrialcraft would remain industrialcraft and Greg would only be working on bugs, etc.. I can see how some people might feel a bit lied to.

With even the surface changes, just getting into it, you could tell it was "gregified." Now that I'm diving even deeper into it with my base advancing, it was almost at the point I didn't want to use it anymore. Even now I don't feel like doing all the normal things I end up doing with IC. The steps it took to get from raw materials to a few geothermals and some glass fibre cables was way over the top. Couldn't even use my TE setup, beside my furnace.. I opted to wait until I have my AE system set up before I go any further into it because it has become ridiculously tedious to make the simple machines. For people who have no intention of going above and beyond, or for those who don't care for maximum speed/efficiency in processing, IC is pretty pointless at this stage.

 

[MoosyDoosy]

in my honest opinion, they could've better declared IC2 as dead, and just start a whole new mod centered around IC2+Gregtech, perhaps IndustrialTech?
because I think alot of the hate on IC2 exp comes from old IC2 users coming back, but finding all these new chances to be too much gregtech and hating on it because of that.

if they'd have chosen to start a whole new mod it could've perhaps given them some more room to try out whole new things, instead of still being stuck to the old IC2 style

This. As a fan of the old IC2 (It was my first mod!) I was to be honest, quite terrified when I learned of the changes. Some of them, I understood, like scaffolding which fixed an exploit (still disagree, could have done something else), but stuff like Energium dust went way overboard, needing four diamonds. Now IC2 is kind of stuck in the land between, being forced into Gregtech, which the old userbase hates, while some users like the new changes because it's becoming Gregtech. I would have also that they rather just started another mod and left IC2. Because now its a horrible mismatch between balance and change.

 

[Yusunoha]

for me, IC2 exp currently is not the IC2 I've known for years now. I know that changes need to happen for it to be able to keep up with other mods nowadays, but the path they've chosen with exp is more the path of a completely new mod, then the path of the old IC2

like I mentioned, in my opinion IC2 exp should just become a whole new mod, a combination of the old IC2 with Gregtech, and they should make it a total conversion mod. with this process greg could stop updating gregtech, and move onto this project. by doing this they can do whatever they want with the mod and minecraft, without having to worry about other mods, and they'll also be free of any possible restraints from the old IC2

as for IC2 itself, it should become open source, allowing anyone willing to continue the original IC2 in the way that they think is right.
now this is probably not something that alot of people wish for, as IC2 has alot of addons and has quite a popular userbase... but as it is now, the IC2 we once knew is already dead.
you've the problem that something similar to MFFS or Redpower may happen, multiple people releasing their version of the mod, but to be honest, I wouldn't mind that, as it'd give us the choice to choose the IC2 we want to play

 

[Siro]

Has it not occurred to anyone that an "Easy" addon to IC2 could be made? It could include things like:
Infinite durability swiss army knife for shapecrafting plates, wires, extruding items, dismantling losslessly and turning machines.
Smart Cables for delivering no more power than a machine demands making explosions impossible (whenever the energy net is finished and this is even possible).
And maybe a couple all-in-one machines for UU matter creation/usage and ore processing.

 

[Yusunoha]

Has it not occurred to anyone that an "Easy" addon to IC2 could be made? It could include things like:
Infinite durability swiss army knife for shapecrafting plates, wires, extruding items, dismantling losslessly and turning machines.
Smart Cables for delivering no more power than a machine demands making explosions impossible (whenever the energy net is finished and this is even possible).
And maybe a couple all-in-one machines for UU matter creation/usage and ore processing.

I am aware of this option, but in my opinion if you need to install another mod to make one mod even a little bit more fun to play, then why do you even have that mod installed?

 

[Petrus]

On a side note, people citing TE3 as an IC2 replacement at all sort of shows you something, as the only real similarities are the Furnace and Pulverizer. That kind of means IC2 was only being used for Ore Processing. And frankly that's a shame, given that it's a great mod for a lot of other reasons.

Agreed. IC2 has been a staple of mine for a very long time. It's true that a lot of what it provides, is now available from other mods; but there are times when it can be exactly what you need. I'm still using a BC quarry at the moment, but I built one of the advanced ore detectors, in order to find an ideal place to put the quarry down. I also use the crop sticks to be able to grow sugarcane on farmland, which is very convenient, because it means I can grow it alongside all my other crops.

IC2's geothermal generators have been a power staple of mine since at least the retail release of Minecraft, as well. I made a tutorial (

) a year ago about how to set up geotherms, and except for the Red Power 2 stuff near the end, all of that information is still largely valid. They are simple to set up and use, and they don't change. It's good.

Some people might think that Tinker's Construct has rendered the mining drill obsolete, but the fact that TC's tools allow for an EU upgrade, means that building IC2's power armour is still worth it. You get both the tool's base durability, and EU on top of that.

The other main thing that I've loved from IC2 since before 1.2.5, is the reinforced concrete and glass. I'm a very paranoid person when it comes to base defense, as well as making sure that I don't get lava everywhere while pumping it, so even though I've never built nuclear power, those bricks are perfect for both solid reaction chambers for other machines, and very strong, Creeper-proof base defenses.

Granted, IC2 does have a couple of minor annoyances, but it has for a very long time. The only real one is the wrench mechanic, which truthfully I've always disliked. This is mainly because my own playstyle often involves picking machines back up and putting them away when I've finished using them, rather than leaving them placed all the time. All I need to do tho is break the block, and then use NEI to get it back in the unbroken form, so it's not really a big deal. I also truthfully don't like the new hammer step in recipes, because it is fairly pointless, but again, it's not really a big deal. It would be a horrible waste of iron, but DartCraft gives me a rechargeable hammer, so that is ok.

Due to Mekanism's universal power cabling, which carries EU/MJ/UE power, and can convert between the three via Mekanism's energy cubes, there isn't really a reason not to use it, either.

IC2 has become more specialised. It is not a mod which I would build everything from, but then again, it never has been. It isn't really a "tiered" overall package any more now either, but I think is moving towards becoming an unrelated grab bag, like OpenBlocks. It's another potential solution to problems, and for me, that is always welcome.

 

[Petrus]

What, no, the metal former makes everything MORE tedious. Especially with AE, I find it better to just waste iron making tons of hammers and cutters than using that slow machine that needs a bit way too many overclockers before getting anywhere near reliable.

Granted, I haven't gone far enough into IC2 to really know what the Metal Former is for, but depending on what you're doing, I'm guessing Mekanism will probably provide some substitute, which will be a lot easier to implement.

The absolute worst thing, though, is the fact that for a mod that heavily punishes errors (hello there voltage), this mod has a serious lack of up-to-date official documentation.

Again, Mekanism is the answer here. Truthfully, IC2's voltages were always something I considered a redundant nuisance, because there was virtually no use for medium voltage at all, and your machines always needed low. The power loss over distance was also always that high that for me it never justified stepping up and down, and laying cables over long distances, either. The best part here, however, is that you can still use IC2's machines for power generation, and then use Mekanism's cables for transport.

In the end, I think IC2 (sort of like BC) is pretty much just a relic of the past.

Like I said, for me redundancy is always a good thing. At the low end, getting started in IC2 still seems to be a bit cheaper than Thermal Expansion, and aside from the tiresome wrench mechanic, the machines have always been easy to set up and use, as well. If I've got plenty of rubber and the more basic metals lying around, and I'm in a jam, I can throw together an old school ore processing system very quickly, and I'm familiar enough with BC pipes (as previously mentioned) that using them doesn't bother me.

Don't get me wrong; I'm not suggesting continuing to use IC2 if you really don't like it. The new Metal Former and hammer/cutter tedium notwithstanding, however, IC2 does still seem to have fairly smooth, easy progression for the most part; it and Mekanism are truthfully still a lot less tedious than the molten redstone tier for me is with Thermal Expansion. I truthfully don't bother going past TE's basic liquiducts and item ducts; the infrastructure for them is simply too painful, and I can get what they would give me in other ways. I also don't actually like "smart" piping so much, because virtually none of the new systems with linked state routing, still have the level of fine grained control that RP2 did, and TE is no real exception.

Again, I'm not bashing TE here. It also has its' uses. The Autonomous Activator in particular is invaluable for me. It's just that I find that what I tend to do, is build a bit here and a bit there from a lot of different mods, skip most of the really painful stuff, and then lean on Mekanism as a bridge system for tying it all together, and the old BC pipes for transport. It's ad hoc, but because I don't play SMP, it works extremely well.

 

[Siro]

I am aware of this option, but in my opinion if you need to install another mod to make one mod even a little bit more fun to play, then why do you even have that mod installed?

Because it's fun.

 

[Petrus]

I think the "newfound hatred" stems from when Greg joined the team some months back, people went into panic mode fearing their beloved IC2 would become gregtech-2. Everyone was basically told to "calm down" and that industrialcraft would remain industrialcraft and Greg would only be working on bugs, etc.. I can see how some people might feel a bit lied to.

I'm probably a few releases behind where IC2 is concerned, but although the new hammer/cutter mechanics definitely seem to have Greg's nefarious fingerprints on them, his influence over IC2 is not yet at a point where I consider it intolerable. I do not use Gregtech; in fact, I'm willing to say that that mod's existence is one of my main sources of real emotional pain where Minecraft is concerned, but if IC2 becomes excessively "Gregified," as you say, then that will be the point at which I will simply drop it. It's not really that big a deal.

 

[Golrith]

Granted, I haven't gone far enough into IC2 to really know what the Metal Former is for, but depending on what you're doing, I'm guessing Mekanism will probably provide some substitute, which will be a lot easier to implement.



Again, Mekanism is the answer here. Truthfully, IC2's voltages were always something I considered a redundant nuisance, because there was virtually no use for medium voltage at all, and your machines always needed low. The power loss over distance was also always that high that for me it never justified stepping up and down, and laying cables over long distances, either. The best part here, however, is that you can still use IC2's machines for power generation, and then use Mekanism's cables for transport.



Like I said, for me redundancy is always a good thing. At the low end, getting started in IC2 still seems to be a bit cheaper than Thermal Expansion, and aside from the tiresome wrench mechanic, the machines have always been easy to set up and use, as well. If I've got plenty of rubber and the more basic metals lying around, and I'm in a jam, I can throw together an old school ore processing system very quickly, and I'm familiar enough with BC pipes (as previously mentioned) that using them doesn't bother me.

Don't get me wrong; I'm not suggesting continuing to use IC2 if you really don't like it. The new Metal Former and hammer/cutter tedium notwithstanding, however, IC2 does still seem to have fairly smooth, easy progression for the most part; it and Mekanism are truthfully still a lot less tedious than the molten redstone tier for me is with Thermal Expansion. I truthfully don't bother going past TE's basic liquiducts and item ducts; the infrastructure for them is simply too painful, and I can get what they would give me in other ways. I also don't actually like "smart" piping so much, because virtually none of the new systems with linked state routing, still have the level of fine grained control that RP2 did, and TE is no real exception.

Again, I'm not bashing TE here. It also has its' uses. The Autonomous Activator in particular is invaluable for me. It's just that I find that what I tend to do, is build a bit here and a bit there from a lot of different mods, skip most of the really painful stuff, and then lean on Mekanism as a bridge system for tying it all together, and the old BC pipes for transport. It's ad hoc, but because I don't play SMP, it works extremely well.

Indeed, everyone has their playstyle. Personally I base everything on TE, then add in other mods components into the system. Gets the job done and I enjoy building it, which is why we play.
Would love an advanced tier of sorting in TE that was basically the sorting machine, filters (to repaint items) and painted tubes from RP2. That level of sorting was useful.