What would YOU change about BuildCraft?

Vazkii

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Jul 29, 2019
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BuildCraft's objective is to place the player in the shoes of a factory designer with limited pieces and to make the best of these to create the best they can. It's as sandbox as sandbox gets, even more so by the lack of progression in it, you're playing an open sandbox, not a linear(-branching) game. A thing that seems shocking to many, for some reason, is that mods need not cater to every user, and catering to a niche userbase is perfectly fine. It doesn't make the mod worse, it just takes it in a different direction.

Quite a lot of the so called "buidcraft replacement" mods don't replace buildcraft, they actually do something different. Mods like EnderIO with its plug-and-play low effort transport systems, MineFactoryReloaded with its "magic block" farms or even Thermal Expansion with its 100% safe, instant transport energy system are doing something different from what BC is. They're not trying to put the player in a position to design complex machinery, they actively simplify the act of making these machines. Some more or less, of course. The common method of "balancing" for simplifying the construction process is to complexify the crafting process. So to make a block that works for you, you end up having to do 10+ chained crafting recipes, not for too long at least, because Applied Energistics takes care of making crafting simpler, so it eventually becomes a game of resource management... which, with the ability to generate insane amounts of RF with systems such as Big Reactors, stops being management and ends up being hoarding. And sheer resource mass is utterly useless if you have nothing to use it on, and eventually, after you build (in a crafting menu, possibly even an ME interface, with little world interaction) all of your farms and systems that have been designed and function out of the box thanks to the mod developers' algorithms, you got nothing to use it for. And you're not proud of that. You're not proud of having figured out a great system to do <thing>. You're not proud of all the time you spent finding the chink in the limitations that'd let you do what you want. You just went through the content, climbed the tech trees, amassed the resources and are ready to call it a day for that world and start a new one.

And that's not inherently a bad thing. There's, as evidenced by the popularity of these mods, a very large amount of people who enjoy this playstyle. But that's the thing, BuildCraft does not cater to this playstyle. And making it lean towards this playstyle won't make the mod better, it'll turn it into a frankenstein of its former self who was built with the intent to go in the opposite direction as its primary objective and goal. That objective is what it should strive towards. The better it can make the gameplay for the people who adhere to the playstyle it caters to, the better it is. A mod that is excellent for one playstyle is better than a mod that is ok for all playstyles, in my opinion, and these niches are good for those who do not play in the conventional "tech tree craft stuff see cool items amass resources get bored close world" playstyle.

So no, these so called "buildcraft replacements" are actually going in the very opposite direction, and if you find that they replace buildcraft for you then you're not the target demographic for it. Is buildcraft antiquated? Sure, it's old, it uses some techniques that existed back in the day. Is it underpowered? Yeah, considering how powerful the average mod is now. Does that make the mod bad? No, it makes it different.
 

ljfa

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Jul 29, 2019
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I must have been dreaming, but I thought Buildcraft 7 was featuring many new multiblocks (especially the refinery). I swear I remember seeing screenshots. Or am I getting my mods mixed up? It was some time ago.
I think that is Buildcraft Additions. There are no multiblock refineries in BC7 afaik.

So no, these so called "buildcraft replacements" are actually going in the very opposite direction, and if you find that they replace buildcraft for you then you're not the target demographic for it.
Heh, Asie saw my picture from that factory where I replaced other mod's pipes with Buildcraft pipes and obviously it's more than a simple replacement (although my case the factory was pretty simple) and I enjoyed doing it.
In this particular modpack, Reika's mods are already providing me with challenges and interesting things to build :)

However the more complicated it gets the more problems you face. Sometimes a small thing doesn't work as expected and you might have to tear the whole thing down and redesign it.
I like myself some engineering challenges at times but I'm glad that both kinds of mods still exist and both kinds are catering to me :)

That said, I dislike too easy solutions as well. For instance I generally prefer ProjectRed circuits before MFR's programmable logic controller and I kinda avoid Steve's Factory Manager unless for stuff I feel like is almost impossible otherwise.
 

Golrith

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Nov 11, 2012
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Ah, that's what I remembered. Looked sweet, and I think it also produced multiple fluid outputs representing true oil processing.
I'm scratching my head wondering if it's possible to achieve a kludged together method with mine/modtweaker and various mods, coming up short though. (Yes, I've been playing Factorio which gives more uses for oil, but keeps things "simple", would like to replicate for minecraft and my modpack)
 

KingTriaxx

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Jul 27, 2013
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Well that went completely the wrong way. I meant tiers as in amount of power output. Nothing, a little, a lot.

BC is one of those mods I won't play without. I don't necessarily use everything it's got to offer, but I do use things. The pump, the quarry. The mining well even. I've never used the filler, and the builder is great, but I don't repeat builds. And it's infinitely cheaper to run high-speed BC piping than it is to run impulse itemducts for example. And for all the mods that try to 'replace' BC, almost all of them will run on it's fuel even if they have almost no other mod compatibility. I find that amusing for some reason.
 

Celestialphoenix

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Tartarus.. I mean at work. Same thing really.
As for ideas; what about a fluid release valve?
Similar to the floodgate, except it places a flowing block rather than the source block- so if the fluid supply stops then flow dries up.​
I like the idea of digging channels around my farm, thus needing a pumping station to irrigate the land.
 

asiekierka

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Dec 24, 2013
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As for ideas; what about a fluid release valve?
Similar to the floodgate, except it places a flowing block rather than the source block- so if the fluid supply stops then flow dries up.​
I like the idea of digging channels around my farm, thus needing a pumping station to irrigate the land.

Wouldn't really work out in my view.
 

l3lackCalamity

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Jul 29, 2019
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As for ideas; what about a fluid release valve?
Similar to the floodgate, except it places a flowing block rather than the source block- so if the fluid supply stops then flow dries up.​
I like the idea of digging channels around my farm, thus needing a pumping station to irrigate the land.

I have good news for you. This is completely do able in vanilla using a source water block and a pistion.
 
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KingTriaxx

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And at least for the look of it, you could control the piston with a BC gate. Fluid in pipe=Redstone signal. Stick a void pipe on the end so it can turn it off.

Can't you turn off the floodgate? I seem to recall a redstone signal would disable it. And use a piston with sand on it to destroy the single water source block when you have a 'drought'.
 

ShneekeyTheLost

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Dec 8, 2012
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Lost as always
BuildCraft's objective is to place the player in the shoes of a factory designer with limited pieces and to make the best of these to create the best they can. It's as sandbox as sandbox gets, even more so by the lack of progression in it, you're playing an open sandbox, not a linear(-branching) game. A thing that seems shocking to many, for some reason, is that mods need not cater to every user, and catering to a niche userbase is perfectly fine. It doesn't make the mod worse, it just takes it in a different direction.

Quite a lot of the so called "buidcraft replacement" mods don't replace buildcraft, they actually do something different. Mods like EnderIO with its plug-and-play low effort transport systems, MineFactoryReloaded with its "magic block" farms or even Thermal Expansion with its 100% safe, instant transport energy system are doing something different from what BC is. They're not trying to put the player in a position to design complex machinery, they actively simplify the act of making these machines. Some more or less, of course. The common method of "balancing" for simplifying the construction process is to complexify the crafting process. So to make a block that works for you, you end up having to do 10+ chained crafting recipes, not for too long at least, because Applied Energistics takes care of making crafting simpler, so it eventually becomes a game of resource management... which, with the ability to generate insane amounts of RF with systems such as Big Reactors, stops being management and ends up being hoarding. And sheer resource mass is utterly useless if you have nothing to use it on, and eventually, after you build (in a crafting menu, possibly even an ME interface, with little world interaction) all of your farms and systems that have been designed and function out of the box thanks to the mod developers' algorithms, you got nothing to use it for. And you're not proud of that. You're not proud of having figured out a great system to do <thing>. You're not proud of all the time you spent finding the chink in the limitations that'd let you do what you want. You just went through the content, climbed the tech trees, amassed the resources and are ready to call it a day for that world and start a new one.

And that's not inherently a bad thing. There's, as evidenced by the popularity of these mods, a very large amount of people who enjoy this playstyle. But that's the thing, BuildCraft does not cater to this playstyle. And making it lean towards this playstyle won't make the mod better, it'll turn it into a frankenstein of its former self who was built with the intent to go in the opposite direction as its primary objective and goal. That objective is what it should strive towards. The better it can make the gameplay for the people who adhere to the playstyle it caters to, the better it is. A mod that is excellent for one playstyle is better than a mod that is ok for all playstyles, in my opinion, and these niches are good for those who do not play in the conventional "tech tree craft stuff see cool items amass resources get bored close world" playstyle.

So no, these so called "buildcraft replacements" are actually going in the very opposite direction, and if you find that they replace buildcraft for you then you're not the target demographic for it. Is buildcraft antiquated? Sure, it's old, it uses some techniques that existed back in the day. Is it underpowered? Yeah, considering how powerful the average mod is now. Does that make the mod bad? No, it makes it different.
To rebut:

Buildcraft has always been primarily about one thing: logistical infrastructure. It helped you get your stuff going from Point A to Point B without needing you to stick it in your inventory and hump it over yourself. Practically everything else about the mod stems from this one basic premise. Quarries were about auto-mining, which is again, automation of a task you don't want to do yourself repeatedly. The entire energy system was designed to support the three blocks in the mod which required power, one of which being the Refinery. Oil was there exclusively as a means of fueling your quarry and your refineries. Then Lazarz happened, and gates, to try and build upon the logistical infrastructure and make things 'smarter'. You could build in the wiring to automatically turn things on and off at the source, which was finally a real reason, other than quarries or other mods (like Forestry) to actually need MJ.

Buildcraft was always around logistics. Other mods that were built on Buildcraft might have had other tasks, but that was Buildcraft's niche. Logistic Pipes took that to a whole new level. That's probably why I never bothered with gates much was I already had LP, so why bother?

However, now there are many other mods that handle the logistical infrastructure niche. Buildcraft routing is kind of like Thaumcraft research... it was fun the first time, okay the second time, and a tedious pain in the arse after that.

I don't not install BC because of being 'hip' or 'cool'. I don't install them because they don't fit any more. The -ex branch broke what didn't need to be fixed in the first place about IC2. And I have other ways of building my logistical infrastructure that doesn't cause a world-ending bug because it decided to dump a couple thousand entities out in the world because I wired it wrong. I don't mind having consequences to doing things improperly, but those consequences should not involve requiring MCEdit just to be able to boot up the world again.

BC was always about the logistical infrastructure, that was its niche. Now others fill that niche that I personally find to be preferable. However, you cannot try to claim that any of the other logistical infrastructure mods are going the opposite direction from BC... because they do the exact same thing. Getting stuff from Point A to Point B without having to do it manually. That's it. That's all it has ever been. And, apparently, that is all it will ever be. I wouldn't call any mod a replacement for any other mod, but you cannot claim there are not alternatives that achieve the same goal. And each person, or pack dev, will need to decide for themselves which mod in the niche best fits their play style or pack vibe.
 
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KingTriaxx

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I kind of agree. On the other hand, BC can do things no other mod does. No other mod I know of, can detect fluid in it's pipes and act on that knowledge. It can also detect if the fluid is just passing by. I set up a system to tell whether it was raining or night time, in a very compact way with BC that would have been much larger, or impossible without it. I had an Extra Utilities solar generator that needed to be given a Redstone signal to discharge. A not gate and daylight detector worked fine for night, but didn't detect the rain. So I had to take a forestry rain tank, and some buildcraft pipes that could pull water when water entered, send a signal and void the water in a void pipe. I know of no other mod that can do that. And very few that could in a very small footprint.
 

asiekierka

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Buildcraft has always been primarily about one thing: logistical infrastructure.

That's a lie, a dangerous lie. After BuildCraft 3., pipes have never constituted more than 1/3 of the codebase. BuildCraft has never been about logistical infrastructure, BuildCraft Transport is just one of the modules that happens to provide infrastructure.

It helped you get your stuff going from Point A to Point B without needing you to stick it in your inventory and hump it over yourself. Practically everything else about the mod stems from this one basic premise.

That's not "infrastructure", that's "automation" - a much more generic term.

However, now there are many other mods that handle the logistical infrastructure niche. Buildcraft routing is kind of like Thaumcraft research... it was fun the first time, okay the second time, and a tedious pain in the arse after that.

None of them, just like BuildCraft, target infrastructure directly (except Thermal Dynamics, now with the recent TE split, and Tubes!): Project: Red/BluePower focus on wiring, Mekanism and Ender IO focus on machines.

And I have other ways of building my logistical infrastructure that doesn't cause a world-ending bug because it decided to dump a couple thousand entities out in the world because I wired it wrong. I don't mind having consequences to doing things improperly, but those consequences should not involve requiring MCEdit just to be able to boot up the world again.

A couple thousand? Let's see...

BC items despawn after 1200 ticks. You cannot possibly have more than 1 entity stack dropping per tick. A couple thousand would mean you'd have to be dropping items from 6+ pipes simultaneously and constantly, meaning you had 7200+ items to begin with. Also, install either AllTheItems or CoFHCore to fix the lag issues stemming from dropped items. Or lower the BC item despawn time, which is configurable.

However, you cannot try to claim that any of the other logistical infrastructure mods are going the opposite direction from BC... because they do the exact same thing.

No. BuildCraft never tried to make logistics easy. It never tried to make logistics instant or thoughtless. It never tried to make machines a triviality. Going in a direction which puts the end result above the journey is separate from BuildCraft, which puts the journey above the end result - which is what, in my view, a sandbox game should be about.

Getting stuff from Point A to Point B without having to do it manually. That's it. That's all it has ever been. And, apparently, that is all it will ever be.

BuildCraft Robots, Builders, Fillers and certain up-and-coming machines would like to express a sincere LOL.
 

gardenapple

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Jan 14, 2014
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This is not much of a rant, I just have some small questions:
1. Why did you remove the slimeballs->pipe sealant recipe? (at least, I'm pretty sure it was a thing in BC 6) Finding cactus for me is pretty much impossible since I live in the middle of a Highlands ocean, and the only way I could make fluid pipes was via slimes. Nevermind, I just realized it's a config option
2. If I were the BC developer, I'd probably remake the Striped Pipe into a seperate block (Advanced Dispenser?). All of it's functions just seem... weird for a pipe.
3. Speaking of Striped Pipes, why can't they plant crops? It may be a bug, but I can't get them to place seeds unlike other blocks. I was hoping to automate farms using BC alone, but it looks like I'll have to wait for robots.
 
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