What would YOU change about BuildCraft?

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asiekierka

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I'm mostly curious. Since most of the BuildCraft feedback I get is from denizen of #buildcraft - who are generally fans of the mod - I'd like to hear from the general population more.

So, what would YOU change about BuildCraft (or what do you dislike about BuildCraft) and why? Also, what is your general opinion of the mod as it is now?
 

Yusunoha

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I know that a while back there were plans to update the textures and blocks from Buildcraft with new ones(I believe it was @CyanideX who did them), but I haven't seen them in a while anymore.
it'd be pretty nice if the Buildcraft textures could get an overhaul because they've been the same for so long

I believe there was also a plan of turning the refinery into a multiblock structure, which was something that I also liked.

I also like how quarry systems of other mods work, where you can for example increase the speed (though with BC you just need to pump more power into the quarry) to silktouch or fortune the ores, to let the quarry only mine the ores instead of the whole world and things like that. it'd be nice if the BC quarry could also have that option, but ofcourse it shouldn't come for cheap. perhaps also give the option of adding a GUI to the quarry, when you right click it a GUI will open up where you can see things such as the progress of quarrying, how many blocks it mined or still has left to mine, how much power the quarry is using, what kind of upgrades are applied to the quarry and so on. perhaps there could also be an advanced option where you can select the area the quarry should dig through the GUI so you no longer need to use the markers.

though I'll be honest, I haven't really used Buildcraft properly in a long time now. I only really use it now to get an early quarry or pump going until I have enough resources for the Extra Utilities quarry and pump.
 

Azzanine

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The BC pipe multi material type methodology, I'd get rid of it.

There are so many different types of pipes, that a large scale complex BC pipe network starts to look like a horrid patchwork technofreak. I've came to calling them "clownpipes" as they can end up super multicolored. Thankfully there's such things as facades, but some players want to keep the bare pipe aesthetic. Other piping mods allow this becasue they do away with needing multiple pipe types.
In other words I would overhaul the pipe typing system, I wouldn't even ask for intelligent routing becasue there is a market for those that want accident prone pipes even though servers and thoughtless players hate them.

I would have 3 pipe types for each kind of logistics (items, liquid, power) maybe in 3 tiers for balance if need be. So there wouldn't be iron, diamond, clay, ect pipes, just a base pipe type.
Now how I propose the functions of those pipes is replaced is by a kind of attachable base logistics item akin to gates, they could actually BE the gates if you want.
They could be tiered with certain complex functions exclusive to a tier but it will be one base item. You would make this base logistics item and then you'd use an Integration table or Programming table or a new kind of table to tell this junction what it is, whether it's routing like an iron pipe, acting like an insertion pipe or whatever BC pipe function one of the clown pipes would have fulfilled. After you have done that you attach it to a pipe and it does it's stuff.
However I will say if this was to be implemented that the 1st tier of this pipe junction should be craftable in a regular table and maybe upgraded in the assembly table. Otherwise you'd lose the ability to use BC pipes early game which TBH is the only real place they are surviving now.
 

ShneekeyTheLost

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My two cents:

The piping system is... umm... well, we dealt with it back in the day, but it really is obsolete. Every other item transportation system has a better way to deal with intersections, are less CPU intensive, don't have to deal with dropping items all over the place, and in general function as intended. The energy piping system, even after the overhaul, is simply 'meh'. The lower tiers really aren't useful, the higher tiers are too expensive, and the throttling system is horribly kludgy.

The machines are no longer relevant. There's plenty of other ways to do auto-mining which are simply superior, both from a system resources and a mechanical perspective. EnderQuarry beats it by miles, for example, and the Mekanism digital miner is equally leaving the quarry in the dust. The mining well is only really useful if you are using a DW20-esque auto-miner (making the quarry once again obsolete...), and even then only when combined with something that can move them around. The refinery is only useful when making Fuel which is only needed for Combustion Engines, which are obsolete. The only machine possibly worth using is a Filler, and even then, there's ways to do that as well.

The engines are obsolete. The combustion engine exploding was a cool mechanic back in 1.2.5, but it's not nearly as relevant these days. Basically, all of your engines are decidedly obsolete compared to any other form of energy generation from any other mod.

Some suggestions to revitalize Buildcraft:

1) Get back to basics. Building and Crafting. See if you can't get that builder to work. Once it used to, then it got broke, then it got removed. If you can figure out how to get it to work, it would certainly entice me to download it again. You've made the Filler more intuitive, for which I thank you. Carve a niche for macro-building and crafting. How about a Modular Crafting Station, where you can have multiple crafting/smelting recipes going simultaneously, or consecutively. Of course, more slots for recipes means more modules and more module capacity upgrades for exponentially more cost. Maybe have it run on power, while you are at it.

2) Trim down the unnecessary. Quite frankly, BC would operate best as an addon for TE these days. They've got the ducts to replace the pipes that have no use these days. Since BC already runs on RF, there's no need to reinvent the wheel.

3) More useful things already in place. More uses for Oil other than a way to power engines that are obsolete. Maybe a use for machine parts that require lubrication? Refine into various petrochemical products? Possible upgrades for the Filler/Quarry? Bring back Blueprinting and auto-construction on a macro scale? I could see this be more for terraforming, construction, civil engineering, and industrial-scale production. Perhaps industrial-scale power generation as well? It'd be nice to see a large multiblock reactor that runs on something other than nuclear fuel.

Buildcraft could go from where it is to a mid to late tier mod. "Okay, and now that we've got our infrastructure, time to get into Buildcraft and build ourselves a REAL base...".
 

n0rw0lf

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I don't know if anything should change. The biggest complaint I see about buildcraft, is usually about the pipes and how they aren't smart. Well, to me, that's a feature.

I'm actually balancing a pack around Buildcraft. Remember those generator rooms with a whole bunch of gas engines? Yea, I want that again.

Buildcraft does a good job at paying well for the player's skill.

If this mod were to become like every other mod, I'd have no reason to include it anymore.
 

asiekierka

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@Azzanine - we tried this! So did immibis with his SAM pipe mod. However, through testing that, we found an extension-based pipe system is axtually more kludgy to use than the simple material system despite looking better. Colors can be changed, though, to clash less.

@ShneekeyTheLost - well, you've missed things, builders are back and BC now has robots. 2 is also being done, with the modularization project. Also, engines don't explode anymore. ...Also, what you're suggesting is essentially remove 80% of BC.

@n0rw0lf - Does change always mean making mods similar to one another?
 

Someone Else 37

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There is one mod that I used to play with before I got into modded MC that had some incredibly useful features that may be right up BC's alley and are unlike anything I've seen since, and it is WorldEdit.

I think that features similar to those in WorldEdit or MCEdit could be implemented in BC by way of the Urbanist block that I heard of a while back and a swarm of Robots. As it is, you can do some of the things WE can do with the Filler, but you have to go to four different corners of the region to fill/clear/whatever, place landmarks, place the Filler, choose the mode, and supply it with energy and blocks (but that's to be expected, since this is supposed to be Survival Mode friendly). With WE, it's just click here, click there, //set air, done. I could see the Urbanist replicating that to some extent- go into 3rd person view, click here, click there, type a command or choose action from a GUI, unleash swarm of robots, done.

The recent re-implementation of the Builder and pathmarks provides a way to replicate //stack, //copy, and //paste, but once again, you have to manually set the volume to copy with landmarks, place the Architect Table, give it a blueprint, place a line of pathmarks for where you want to copy the structure, and place/power/supply the Builder. I could see the Urbanist reducing that to click here, click there, enter command or click MCEdit-style GUI to copy that volume to an actual physical blueprint stored somewhere, and click a couple more times to unleash the robots to rebuild it somewhere else.

I guess what this could all boil down to is a way to have the Urbanist replicate the functionality of all the BC machines that interact with the world (pump, filler, quarry, builder, floodgate, etc.) without actually having to place those blocks in the world. Rather, all you'd need to do would be to tell the Urbanist where to do the things that those machines do, and it'll do it for you. Of course, there would be a lot more power, time, and shuffling of items that WE simply doesn't need to worry about, but so long as there's a way to upgrade the robots so they fly faster, can carry more than one item at a time, and are fireproof, I don't think that'll be an issue.

Also, the polychromatic pipes of BuildCraft do have one thing going for them- they're considerably easier to configure, once placed in the world, than anything else out there. Yes, you may have to carry around a dozen different types of pipes, but at least there's little to no messing about with GUIs unless you're using gem-based pipes. Need to extract items? Wooden pipe, redstone engine, redstone torch, done. Need to extract faster? Use a sterling engine or an autarchic gate. Don't want this pipe line to connect to that one? Make one with cobble pipes and the other with stone, or put a plug in between. EnderIO conduit GUIs, I've found, are particularly annoying to deal with.

Also, people don't seem to realize this often, but stone pipes are cheap.
Maybe the cost of diamond pipes could be brought closer in line with that of other mods' sorting mechanics (XU sorting pipes, TD filters, EnderIO filter items) by having each pipe only require an item that's, say, a 4th or 16th of a diamond, and/or is dropped in addition to the usual drops from diamond ore when mined with a particular tool (or TiCon tool upgrade? Hmm...). It's just annoying when you're trying to set up an early-game sorting system and you have to use two of your first few diamonds to do it.

There are only a few minor suggestions I could make with regard to the pipe system:
1. Add some sort of simple always-on autarchic gate that's not much than a redstone engine in the tech tree. I don't mind if it's a few times as expensive than the RS engine, so long as I don't need the diamondspam that is an assembly table.
2. Make it more obvious what happens when you have multiple "Energy Pulser" conditions active in an autarchic gate. For those who don't know, each active pulser beyond the first doubles the number of items extracted at a time- so having seven pulsers active in a diamond gate will extract a stack of items at a time. This could be done through an in-game manual or noting this behavior in the Pulsating Chipset tooltip.
3. Some simpler way to create setups that won't drop items everywhere. I know that this can be done with pipe loops or gates, but such setups always seem overcomplicated and un-compact. This may actually be very simple to implement, at least for some setups- just make the clay (insertion) pipe bounce items backward if they have nowhere else to go, and make the wooden pipe insert items coming into it into whatever block it's supposed to be drawing from or just buffer the items and spit them back out the next time it gets an RF pulse. More complicated setups might require a new pipe (or gate feature?) that routes items based on which direction they're coming from. I have two ideas for this:
3a. Give each end of the pipe a different color, akin to diamond pipes. In the pipe's GUI, you can specify which direction items coming from each direction should go, i.e. send items coming from the north eastward, send items coming from the east southward, etc. If items cannot go in the specified direction, for whatever reason, the pipe reroutes them as if they just came from that direction. So if, in the above example, there was either no pipe or a full inventory on the south side, items coming from the north would just go eastward. Failing that, they'll just drop on the ground.
3b. Basically a restricted version of the above where all the inputs except one direct items the same way, and items that come in from that direction exit in a different specified direction. This could be handled with a wrench- right-click to set the default output, shift-right-click to set the output for items that come in from the default output.
4. Some way to direct items in transit based on redstone/pipe wire signals would be useful occasionally and is not to be found in any other mods that I know of, but sounds like something that already exists and I would find it if I did a little research.
5. Add a wood/gold hybrid pipe that accelerates items as they're extracted. Or just make the emerald pipe do that.
6. VERY minor: Change the textures of the wooden, iron, diamond, emerald, etc. pipes to be somewhat more transparent. Mostly because it's really hard to see the items a wood pipe is extracting as it's extracting them when there's a gate on it; putting a transparent stripe down the middle of the opaque side should fix that.

I would also add that it can be difficult to remember which pipes do what, but I've noticed that the tooltips have become much more informative. Props to you and your team for that.
 

asiekierka

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@Someone Else 37 - great points! 5 was already considered, 4 is iron pipes with a gate or perhaps lapis/daizuli pipes with gates, 3 would be very complicated and to be honest not fitting BC because of the configurational complexity - however, the wooden pipe already accepts items back; 1 is also valid and 2 is the documentation issue we've had for ages. (6 is also coming!)
 

ShneekeyTheLost

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@ShneekeyTheLost - well, you've missed things, builders are back and BC now has robots. 2 is also being done, with the modularization project. Also, engines don't explode anymore. ...Also, what you're suggesting is essentially remove 80% of BC.
Robits are... eh, I have a knee-jerk reflex to dislike any kind of replacement-steve. CC was, in my opinion, the single most powerful mod ever written because Turtles. Force multiplication to the nth degree. Good to hear the builders are back and modularization is coming in. Even without explosions, BC engines just can't compare with anyone else's engines. It merely puts them only about two or three steps behind everyone rather than not even in the same tier. Oil is horribly under-utilized. The only use it currently has is to run engines that also run on ethanol which is more easily renewable. Find more uses for it! Make something like a machine shop that needs lubricant for certain machine parts, which is refined from oil.

Does anyone ever use that 80% of the mod? If you have a bunch of features nobody uses, it's just bloat.
 

asiekierka

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Robits are... eh, I have a knee-jerk reflex to dislike any kind of replacement-steve. CC was, in my opinion, the single most powerful mod ever written because Turtles. Force multiplication to the nth degree. Good to hear the builders are back and modularization is coming in. Even without explosions, BC engines just can't compare with anyone else's engines. It merely puts them only about two or three steps behind everyone rather than not even in the same tier. Oil is horribly under-utilized. The only use it currently has is to run engines that also run on ethanol which is more easily renewable. Find more uses for it! Make something like a machine shop that needs lubricant for certain machine parts, which is refined from oil.

Does anyone ever use that 80% of the mod? If you have a bunch of features nobody uses, it's just bloat.

Nobody? You're living in a bubble if you think nobody is - chilm and chemdork still run BC-centric LPs, and we have enough people on BC forums to believe nobody is essentially a lie.

But we are making BC modular for that reason - you only install what you want.
 
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Azzanine

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@Azzanine - we tried this! So did immibis with his SAM pipe mod. However, through testing that, we found an extension-based pipe system is axtually more kludgy to use than the simple material system despite looking better. Colors can be changed, though, to clash less.
Kludgy in what respect? The BC pipes from a player (well me specifically as a player) standpoint seems to be the EPITOME of a kludgy. Try to get perfectly smooth droppless system with BC pipes requires all manner of feedback loops and multicolored parts.

Back in the day I remember the horrid obsidian pickup loops you'd have to setup to get items that fell out of a pipe back in to the system. Then Extra Pipes added insertion pipes and it became a little better but you still needed the feedback loop, it just meant you could do without the engine powering the obsidian pipe.
I have a feeling you mean kludgy from a programming aspect, something I would be unaware of. Because I really don't know see you could get BC pipes to be anymore clumsy and unweildly.

I guess I never truly liked BC pipes, I only used them becasue they where the only option until REDpower Pneumatic tubes came in to power. Now we have EIO and the revamped TE duct mod Thermal Dynamics although they kind of spoil us a bit too much.
These days I would only use BC pipes if the pack I was using had logistic pipes and that's only becasue it forces BC pipes to be a smart routing on demand system.
 

thephoenixlodge

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Robits are... eh, I have a knee-jerk reflex to dislike any kind of replacement-steve. CC was, in my opinion, the single most powerful mod ever written because Turtles. Force multiplication to the nth degree. Good to hear the builders are back and modularization is coming in. Even without explosions, BC engines just can't compare with anyone else's engines. It merely puts them only about two or three steps behind everyone rather than not even in the same tier. Oil is horribly under-utilized. The only use it currently has is to run engines that also run on ethanol which is more easily renewable. Find more uses for it! Make something like a machine shop that needs lubricant for certain machine parts, which is refined from oil.

Does anyone ever use that 80% of the mod? If you have a bunch of features nobody uses, it's just bloat.
I do agree with one thing here; The engines in BC, Forestry and Railcraft all just aren't worth it these days as they max out at what is generally the baseline for a basic generator in most RF mods. Stirling engine - why use it when the survivalist generator from ExU is cheaper, far more efficient and produces 5x more RF/t. This is why Regrowth has very few options for generators and gates most of them away to be quite lategame and expensive to make the Engines worthwhile.

@asiekierka My suggestion for pipes would be to have a single basic pipe item which you place in world and can apply items to change effects (either the item directly or new upgrade items) to mimic current capabilities but with potentially simpler construction.
 
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asiekierka

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Kludgy in what respect? The BC pipes from a player (well me specifically as a player) standpoint seems to be the EPITOME of a kludgy. Try to get perfectly smooth droppless system with BC pipes requires all manner of feedback loops and multicolored parts.

Not really. Think "place pipe, then place extension module, then place another pipe..." to just "place pipe, place another pipe...". And if I had made the extensions integrable in a crafting table, that still not only adds many more combinations of pipes, but also makes things less obvious to the naked eye when looking at a pipe system.

About the pipe loops, there are much easier ways to make them nowadays, thanks to lenses and filters - but there's little we can do about the need to build them.

Same goes to @thephoenixlodge - from testing, the "items to change effects" system I believe is worse than the "one material per effect" system. Also, "power creep", that is the constant rise of both RF/t generation and usage, is something we explicitly chose not to buy into.
 

n0rw0lf

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Also, "power creep", that is the constant rise of both RF/t generation and usage, is something we explicitly chose not to buy into.

And there lies the whole reason why I still like Buildcraft. Yes, if you were to put every mod together, and compared their RF/tick usage and production, Buildcraft generators would be hardly worth it, by default. But that's always going to be a problem, there will always be one mod trying to one-up another in order to become more popular.

Most packs keep things at default, so things are by nature going to be horrifyingly unbalanced. But that's a problem on the pack makers part, not the mod that's now underpowered.

Buildcraft is by nature, simple. No no weird hitboxes to hit to change a pipe mode, just an intuitive material based pipe system, but it doesn't hold your hand. Complex builds are very possible, and in my opinion easier with all the gates (and LP). Builds are often far more interesting with the buildcraft pipes, since you can actually see what's going on, and big things just look cooler.

Oh and those pipe loops. I always thought they weren't a big deal, but you can use logistics pipes to avoid needing to use them.
 

Wekmor

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And there lies the whole reason why I still like Buildcraft. Yes, if you were to put every mod together, and compared their RF/tick usage and production, Buildcraft generators would be hardly worth it, by default. But that's always going to be a problem, there will always be one mod trying to one-up another in order to become more popular.

Most packs keep things at default, so things are by nature going to be horrifyingly unbalanced. But that's a problem on the pack makers part, not the mod that's now underpowered.

Buildcraft is by nature, simple. No no weird hitboxes to hit to change a pipe mode, just an intuitive material based pipe system, but it doesn't hold your hand. Complex builds are very possible, and in my opinion easier with all the gates (and LP). Builds are often far more interesting with the buildcraft pipes, since you can actually see what's going on, and big things just look cooler.

Oh and those pipe loops. I always thought they weren't a big deal, but you can use logistics pipes to avoid needing to use them.
^I second that. It's the reason bc always was and still is one of my favourite mods (tied with botania :b)
 

Azzanine

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My suggestion for pipes would be to have a single basic pipe item which you place in world and can apply items to change effects (either the item directly or new upgrade items) to mimic current capabilities but with potentially simpler construction.

That was pretty much my suggestion but with WAY less words. +1 for Brevity!

Not really. Think "place pipe, then place extension module, then place another pipe..." to just "place pipe, place another pipe...". And if I had made the extensions integrable in a crafting table, that still not only adds many more combinations of pipes, but also makes things less obvious to the naked eye when looking at a pipe system.

About the pipe loops, there are much easier ways to make them nowadays, thanks to lenses and filters - but there's little we can do about the need to build them.

In my experience it was never a simple case of "place pipe, then place another pipe" it was more of a case of "place pipe, then place another pipe then remove pipe after testing because of mistake or figuring out better pipe option, then craft new pipes to realize that this new option was no better. Then I end up with a bag full of "off cut" clown pipes I either keep and let it clutter up a chest somewhere to possibly use in another project or I sent it to a lava incinerator or void pipe system when those got released.

I used to go to some odd server that split up and restricted the mods in to 3 "classes" I made the painful mistake of picking the "MJ based" mods class. This server had some odd leveling rank thing and the top level challenge they set up was to make a ore processing machine that could take anything that was put in it and process it and then store it, of course it had to be a processable material. The thing utterly did my head in, it was a snakey monstrocity that fed in to a wall of diamond pipes feeding in to barrels (was an utter cock to configure FYI) becasue you couldn't just rely on the items feeding in from regular pipes. Also keep in mind this was in a pack without Extra BC pipes and way before the advent of clay pipes (which sound like Extra BC's insertion pipes).

Also feedback loops aren't really a big deal TBH, if you prefer an active non self routing system that's something you have to contend with or might even like contending with.
 
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Someone Else 37

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I just found that the first part of #3 is my previous post- where clay pipes bounce items back if they don't fit and don't have anywhere else to go- is already implemented. Thanks asie!

Lenses and filters, you say? I'll have to look into that.
 

GreenZombie

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I think people complaining that the engines are outdated have lost the plot. There is nothing clever or innovative about the trend for modern mods to produce billions of RF from a sniff of coal.

Buildcraft however with its (previous) obsession with perdition and hard to store and transport power, missed an opportunity to focus on providing what its name implies: building tools.

The schematics were interesting but clumsy to use.

I apologise if the robots can do this now, but I would like the builder - filler mechanics to be translated into a general set of mc edit like tools that can cut, copy and paste areas. Rotate areas, substitute all blocks of a type in an area for different blocks.

Oh. All the devices should have a ui. If only to show its energy usage / production.

Again. This might be redundant in the face of robots but the mining well, quarry and filler could all have been combined into a multi block modular quarry and mining system.

And finally. Make implicit chunk loading something that players must opt in to, or at least opt out of.
 

asiekierka

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Buildcraft however with its (previous) obsession with perdition and hard to store and transport power, missed an opportunity to focus on providing what its name implies: building tools.

BuildCraft has many faces, and it was never just about building. (Or crafting.)

The schematics were interesting but clumsy to use.

I apologise if the robots can do this now, but I would like the builder - filler mechanics to be translated into a general set of mc edit like tools that can cut, copy and paste areas. Rotate areas, substitute all blocks of a type in an area for different blocks.

That's hard to implement in a user-friendly way, but the Urbanist was supposed to do some of that.

Oh. All the devices should have a ui. If only to show its energy usage / production.

Are the kinetic pipe visual cues not enough?

Again. This might be redundant in the face of robots but the mining well, quarry and filler could all have been combined into a multi block modular quarry and mining system.

Multiblocks haven't really been a BC thing, but it is under consideration.

And finally. Make implicit chunk loading something that players must opt in to, or at least opt out of.

There's a global config option, and per-player chunk loading configuration would break immersion - a player should not care about "chunks".
 

Celestialphoenix

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Tartarus.. I mean at work. Same thing really.
Are the kinetic pipe visual cues not enough?

This in itself is one of the reasons I love buildcraft; the visual feedback and design makes it far more interesting and intuitive to work with. Being able to see this information at a glance is certainly more convenient and immersive than the 'click GUI. Read number' or 'Click pipe. Read chat message'. (or look at pipe, read obnoxious text box on HUD)