What does YOUR Power Room look like?

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bdew

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Jul 29, 2019
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Not near the game, so can't post pics right now, but...

Currently using a ton of IC2 geo gens with lava pumped from the nether (using TE liquid transposers + ender chests to move the lava in buckets).

I always (well, since discovering) used sugarcane farms -> biomass setup for BC power, but right now biogas engines are derpy and tend to get stuck permanently when the world unloads. So for now i'm using electrical engines (from IC2 Transformers mod, the ones from forestry are way too limited) for everything that needs BC power.
 

Daemonblue

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Jul 29, 2019
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A follow up on the gregtech -> methane thing. How do you see how high their fuel value is for a railcraft boiler without using a stopwatch?

Also, liquid boilers can run on hydrogen, lithium, and nitro-coalfuel cells as well, but the methane method seems to be the easiest to handle. Also, you can centrifuge carrots and potatos for methane cells, so with carrots you might be able to make more use of your space.
 

TruculentMC

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Jul 29, 2019
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In my Beta A world, I had two biomass generating setups. The first was a single level cactus farm feeding into a fermenter. I ended up with way more cacti than the fermenter could keep up with.

My second setup had a two-layer farm with 3 fermenters running on cacti. Again, ended up with a significant surplus of cacti. Maybe I didn't have the fermenters running at full tilt or something, but they were running more than fast enough to keep all of my machinery tooting along :)

Were you actually fuelling a full sized boiler from your biofuel setup, though?


As for the fertilizer part, you can run fermenters on mulch, which can be easily produced via a wheat farm and moisteners. With this you can get a lot of moss cobble that you can also turn into scrap, and you can prdouce tons of mulch when setup right.

Edit: Also, good find with the methane and centrifuges there. Personally I haven't tried any gregtech stuff since 1.4.2, but perhaps there are other fuels that might run liquid boilers easily?
A follow up on the gregtech -> methane thing. How do you see how high their fuel value is for a railcraft boiler without using a stopwatch?

Also, liquid boilers can run on hydrogen, lithium, and nitro-coalfuel cells as well, but the methane method seems to be the easiest to handle. Also, you can centrifuge carrots and potatos for methane cells, so with carrots you might be able to make more use of your space.

Hydrogen is possibly interesting as a boiler fuel, as you can make it just out of water with the electrolyzer. But I don't know the heatvalue offhand so maybe it won't be possible to get more energy out than it takes to make. I think it was 9K heat but I would have to test and confirm this, no time right now. At one time NEI showed the heatvalues, something changed and it's not showing them now in the latest version of MindCrack pack. I think maybe because the FuelCan recipes got removed? Hmm.

I too thought about Carrots and Potatoes but they need a farm to replant. I'm not sure if they would produce faster than Pumpkins. Melons might be the quickest, as you get average 5 I think per harvest, and need 64 to Centrifuge, compared to 16 and 1 per harvest for Pumpkin. Mycelium is interesting also as you get Mushrooms -> Methane, and Clay -> Lithium and Sodium. But again it needs wheat farm, more infrastructure and more steps.

Centrifuge has some really interesting recipes now. 64 coaldust to 1 thorium cell... and coaldust can be gotten from Netherrack... will 1 Thorium cell make more power than 16 stacks of Netherrack melted into Lava? Hmm!
 

KriiEiter

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Jul 29, 2019
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Were you actually fuelling a full sized boiler from your biofuel setup, though?





Hydrogen is possibly interesting as a boiler fuel, as you can make it just out of water with the electrolyzer. But I don't know the heatvalue offhand so maybe it won't be possible to get more energy out than it takes to make. I think it was 9K heat but I would have to test and confirm this, no time right now. At one time NEI showed the heatvalues, something changed and it's not showing them now in the latest version of MindCrack pack. I think maybe because the FuelCan recipes got removed? Hmm.

I too thought about Carrots and Potatoes but they need a farm to replant. I'm not sure if they would produce faster than Pumpkins. Melons might be the quickest, as you get average 5 I think per harvest, and need 64 to Centrifuge, compared to 16 and 1 per harvest for Pumpkin. Mycelium is interesting also as you get Mushrooms -> Methane, and Clay -> Lithium and Sodium. But again it needs wheat farm, more infrastructure and more steps.

Centrifuge has some really interesting recipes now. 64 coaldust to 1 thorium cell... and coaldust can be gotten from Netherrack... will 1 Thorium cell make more power than 16 stacks of Netherrack melted into Lava? Hmm!

Do Thaumcraft Golems work on potatoes and carrots?
 

Daemonblue

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Jul 29, 2019
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As for the carrot part, it doesn't take much energy to power the harvesters and planters, however if you use TC3 golems to do the harvesting and gathering you can cut out any power usage from the farms. All you have to do is set up is some smart straw golem workers to gather and replant the carrots, and, with a farm of your size, an observant wooden golem set in the center to pick up any carrots not used to replant. Sadly, after testing this just now with the recent version, it seems the straw golems can be kinda derpy sometimes and not notice that something has grown for a little while. Also, this system doesn't seem to want to play well with pumpkins.

Hopefully Azanor can get this aspect of the mod running smoothly...and perhaps he can make the golems work on ic2 crops like his farming seals did back in 1.2.5 since that would save a ton of space.
 

Abdiel

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Jul 29, 2019
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Centrifuge has some really interesting recipes now. 64 coaldust to 1 thorium cell... and coaldust can be gotten from Netherrack... will 1 Thorium cell make more power than 16 stacks of Netherrack melted into Lava? Hmm!

A quad thorium cell surrounded by four reflectors (efficiency 7, highest possible) produces 28M EU, or 7M EU per cell. Of course this burns some copper, if you want a completely renewable setup, one thorium cell alone produces 5M EU. In a Geothermal Generator, 16 * 64 = 1,024 lava produces 20,480,000 EU, which is created at the cost of 8,192,000 MJ (13.65 buckets of Fuel in a Combustion Engine).

However you can also make Coal Dust in an Industrial Electrolyzer from Blaze Powder, so if you are fine with standing around a Blaze spawner for a while, that could be a renewable alternative.
 

TheLoneWolfling

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Jul 29, 2019
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Hi.

Everyone on my server is powering their machines with a bunch of advanced Gregtech solars. I wanted to prove to my friends how overpowered "free" energy sources (solars, water towers...) really are, especially the advanced versions. So I issued (and immediately accepted myself) a challenge: build a completely sustainable powerplant that would consistently output a non-trivial amount of EU - let's say, 32EU/t.

Here are the specific requirements:

- FTB Beta A pack (so, no RedPower).
- Can not use any "free energy" machines (defined as: place block, get energy forever).
- No exploits/quirks/glitchy/cheap mechanics (energy -> lava -> more energy conversion, burning scrap to produce more energy than needed to create it, etc.)
- Must be 100% self-sustainable. The server runs 24/7, and my base has chunk loaders. If I leave for a week, the system needs to be running all this time. This means no burning nether lava, no netherrack, not even dirt is considered renewable.
- Consistent production of EU. I have "a few" advanced machines, which consume EU by the fact of simply existing. Therefore I need to output a consistent stream of EU at all times, 24/7.
- It should be one coherent system. So no "this setup creates 0.25 EU/t, so I copy it over 120 times".

After about a week I completed a project which fulfills all the requirements. It is a combined forestry/IC/Gregtech factory, with a couple of other mod machines here and there.

First, Forestry farms feeding everything:

2012-12-30_13.15.35.png


Left to right: Peat farm (not needed in the system, but feeds off of it, and I use Peat elsewhere), Tree Farm, Rubber Tree Farm, Wheat Farm.

Every farm sorts its products into an Ender Chest, from which other machines extract it. Any excess is directed into a void pipe, in order not to spill any items when the chest overflows.

Here is my bioplant:

2012-12-30_13.14.30.png


Left to right: Moistener, Fermenter, Iron Tank (Railcraft) with Biomass, Still, Iron Tank with Biofuel, Combustion Engines.

The Moistener receives wheat and seeds from the wheat plant, and turns them into Mulch and Mycelium. The Mycelium is processed by a Factorization Grinder (not shown) into Dirt, which is fed back into the system. Mulch is used in the Fermenter, which receives saplings from the two tree farms and turns them into Biomass.

This is then processed in the Still into Biofuel, which feeds four Combustion Engines. Coolant is provided by Thermal Expansion's Aqueous Accumulators (barely visible under the engines). The engines power the farms, as well as all the machines in this room.

This setup also produces more MJ than needed, and as you can see from the Biofuel in the tank, it could feed even more engines. Although not required by the original challenge, this is also a completely sustainable source of BC energy. (I haven't done the math of how much of it is produced, as the MJ needs of Forestry machines are largely unknown.)

Carpenter room:

2012-12-30_13.35.49.png


Pretty simple, a pair of Carpenters creating Bog Earth and Humus from Dirt and Mulch generated from the system, and Sand created by macerating Cobblestone from an Ingeous Extruder (not shown). The version of Forestry in Beta A has a bug, and Carpenters can't be fed by pipes. I solved this by using Routers, instructed to deposit items into specific slots. Buildcraft gates manage extraction from the Carpenters so that the Ender Chests never overflow.

(The bits at the right side are from something else (bee products processing).)

Finally, the IC/GregTech powerplant (a.k.a. The Beast):

2012-12-30_13.15.03.png


All GregTech item-moving machines lose their textures when I leave the server. But the signs explain how the individual machines are connected. The following process is used:

Industrial Centrifuge: 12x Empty Cell + 16x Rubber Wood + 25,000 EU --> 8x Sticky Resin + 6x Plantball + 4x Methane Cell + 1x Carbon Cell
Industrial Centrifuge: 8x Sticky Resin + 12,500 EU --> 28x Rubber + 2x Compressed Plants + 2x Plantball
Rubber is discarded into a void pipe (I have a barrel full of it already).
All Plantballs are compressed into Compressed Plants.
Compressor: Plantball + 800 EU --> Compressed Plants (this is used 8x every cycle)
The Carbon Cell is extracted to get an empty cell back. (There is no sustainable way to get energy from Carbon. Turning them into Methane cells consumes one cell.)
Extractor: Carbon Cell + 800 EU --> Empty Cell
Crafting: Compressed Plants + Empty Cell --> Bio Cell

Methane Cells and Bio Cells are deposited into an Ender Chest, to be used by machinery on the right side of the room:

Industrial Centrifuge: Empty Fuel Can + 6x Bio Cell + 5,000 EU --> Fuel Can (26,040 EU) + 6x Empty Cell (this happens 5x every 3 cycles)
Industrial Centrifuge: Empty Fuel Can + Methane Cell + 1,000 EU --> Fuel Can (45,000 EU) + Empty Cell (this happens 4x every cycle)

Empty Cells are returned back to the system through an Ender Chest. Note that during one cycle, we get all the used cells back, so the system doesn't eat any tin.
Fuel Cans are distributed by Factorization Routers (very right edge of the image) between 6 Generators to generate fuel. A fuel can, unlike a cell, is not consumed by the Generator. Another Router then picks the empty cans up and inserts them back into the centrifuge to be filled.

Summing it all up, one entire cycle of the system consumes only 16 Rubber Wood. No additional resources are required, all other materials used are returned. One cycle creates on average 223,400 EU. Subtracting the running cost of all machines needed to process various items, every cycle nets 166,366 EU. (Note, this does not account for power needs of GregTech Translocators and Sorters, which is however negligible).

Looking at the time the various operations need, centrifuging the rubber wood is the bottleneck - it takes 250 seconds. All the other components can easily keep up. Therefore the whole setup produces, on average, 33.27 EU/tick.


Obviously I don't claim that this is anything resembling efficient. In fact this setup could probably compete in a Rube-Goldberg Machine contest. But it fulfills all the original demands - a 100% sustainable energy source, which does not rely on any glitches, quirks, or inter-mod balance issues. And I had loads of fun figuring out the needed processes, building the machines, and optimizing all pipes and item transport.


Some final notes and other random thoughts:
* In addition to EU, the system produces all sorts of byproducts: BC power (MJs), Wheat, Seeds, Peat, Wood (Oak and Rubber tree), Dirt, Mulch, Biofuel, Rubber. All of these are generated in larger amounts than needed, therefore the setup is also an infinite source of all these things.

* The IC setup creates 10,397 EU per piece of Rubber Wood. I know turning regular wood into Scaffolds would create more, however I consider burning Scaffolds a very cheap mechanic balance-wise. (One of those I didn't want to abuse.)

* It is not energy efficient to convert Bio Cells into Biofuel Cells (in Beta A). It costs less to centrifuge Biofuel Cells into cans, but the difference is not enough to cover the Extractor power cost.

* Ender Chests are really, really powerful when it comes to compacting your piping. The entire setup contains maybe 40 individual pipes, vast majority of that is used by Forestry farms. They are needed there because the farms are really really dumb, and there is no way to sort their outputs other than pipes. I would absolutely love a TE-style interface to send, for example, saplings from one side and wood from another.

* At one point I had the excess Biofuel transported into Bio Generators. I found out they use a LOT of it. So much that even one ate all the excess fuel. I could just spam a bunch of tree farms to produce more saplings, but that would use much more space, and go against the "no copying a weak setup" requirement.

* The GregTech room causes a very significant FPS drop whenever I'm near it. I have no idea why.

You're going about that entirely the wrong route IMHO.

Steves carts woodcutter (running on planks as per your requirements) -> sawmill -> generators + hobbyist's steam engines to power sawmill.
 

Daemonblue

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Jul 29, 2019
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Ok, been doing some golem harvesting tests with a 7x7 carrot and pumpkin farm (they do harvest, they just have trouble recognizing them being grown from time to time) and the pumpkin farm is pretty well ahead right now and seems to be widening the gap. I did start off the pumpkin farm all fully grown compared to a newly planted carrot farm, but as it stands now the pumpkins are a full stack ahead of the carrots.

Also, doing testing with the fermenter and I can say at the very least a single sugar cane farm sized 15x15 can't support a single fermenter going full speed. I use that size due to it being able to be contained in a single, walled in chunk as well as it being the same size as a farm. However, a single farm can supply enough mulch via moistening so that helps somewhat, but that could be due to the lack of sugar cane to burn. Your best bet here would be to come up with a system of producing a massive amount of saplings that the fermenter could use with this system.

After factoring this all in we can probably come out and say that unless you are producing a massive amount of saplings, then the methane method is superior to the biofuel method due to needing less space and, possibly, less energy. The only downfall would probably have to be the cost to produce the gregtech machines used in the design, but then if you're able to make a 36HP boiler then that shouldn't be too much of an issue.
 

SilvasRuin

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Jul 29, 2019
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Quick question, but did you give the golem(s) spectacles? You might could get away with an even larger farm with that upgrade.
 

Daemonblue

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Jul 29, 2019
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Technically I could give them a bigger farm as they are now, it's just more of a matter of it being easier to align chunk loaders so some parts of your farm don't get unloaded while others are still loaded.

Anyway, something I haven't tried yet though is the IC2 terraformer for sugarcane growth, as it apparently can make them grow faster, as well as trees. I'm gonna look into it.
 

Abdiel

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Jul 29, 2019
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You're going about that entirely the wrong route IMHO.

Steves carts woodcutter (running on planks as per your requirements) -> sawmill -> generators + hobbyist's steam engines to power sawmill.

Funny. I don't know pretty much anything about any of the rail/cart mods. I guess you learn something new every day. ;) Thanks for the suggestion.
 

Daemonblue

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Jul 29, 2019
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I too thought about Carrots and Potatoes but they need a farm to replant. I'm not sure if they would produce faster than Pumpkins. Melons might be the quickest, as you get average 5 I think per harvest, and need 64 to Centrifuge, compared to 16 and 1 per harvest for Pumpkin. Mycelium is interesting also as you get Mushrooms -> Methane, and Clay -> Lithium and Sodium. But again it needs wheat farm, more infrastructure and more steps.


Regarding the part I bolded, I'm testing this right now and you very well may be on to something here. I can't say yet for sure since I started the melon farm a little late, but it does seem to be catching up to the pumpkin farm with relative ease.

Regarding the terraformer from ic2...useless for sugarcane farms sadly, though it does seem to help wheat farms quite well, but its radius is too large for a compact vertical farming tower.

As for the golems vs harvester thing, the golems came slightly in the lead (I had them fight each other over the same farm :X) but not by much (about 1-2 pumpkins after a stack). Note, I used 5 of the harvesting golems due to how they react to stuff growing, so they had the advantage and still only barely won. That said, for a multi-floor growing complex they would most definitely lose due to having to have so many of them.

@Abdiel can you please
spoiler tag
your pictures above?

Edit: Also another thing to note, don't use crystal chests to store only watermelon slices, it causes a giant twirling block of death.
 

SilvasRuin

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Jul 29, 2019
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One major advantage with golems is that they require no power for upkeep, so it's just a one-time setup cost. If you have Crystal Clusters and thus your Aura is renewable, farming golems are cheap to set up. You can then use the fuel/power power you save elsewhere.
 

Daemonblue

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Jul 29, 2019
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Yes, but the machines only require something like 2-4 mj/t, which is hardly much and a single machine can work on several layers of farms, while it takes several golems per layer to match their speed.

Also, Melons just overtook the massive lead the pumpkins had (had 2 stacks of pumpkins before starting the melon farm) and it's still going strong.
 

TheLoneWolfling

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Jul 29, 2019
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Funny. I don't know pretty much anything about any of the rail/cart mods. I guess you learn something new every day. ;) Thanks for the suggestion.
It's much easier. By comparison, I have a ~21x21 (+ machinery) creative-mode wood farm that produces a relatively constant 100eu/t.
 

zilvarwolf

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Jul 29, 2019
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Were you actually fuelling a full sized boiler from your biofuel setup, though?

I had just started up a 27H boiler before essentially retiring that world for an IC-less direwolf20 world.

Let's see what I can recall...I had a dual layer cactus farm setup over top of my processing mess. I had...6 fermenters running (turned 2 or 3 of them off near the end, though) at the end, but that's not a great basis for discussion since I had introduced excess saplings from my tree farm into the mix and made 2 of the fermenters dedicated to run saplings. Anyway, had, essentially, 4 fermenters running cacti into biomass and 5 biofuel engines. The tank had about 400 buckets worth of biomass. That was being pumped into 4 stills that had filled a second 3x3 tank to 210 buckets or so. That's when I turned on the boiler.

On my mystcraft age, my prototype for that was a simple single layer farm dumping cacti into a fermenter and pumping biomass over to 3 engines (2 to power a quarry and 1 to power the system itself). Every time I went down to check up on it, there were dozens of cacti laying around, popped out of the pipes, because I fail at making self-regulating systems.

I guess it could have gotten nerfed from 1.4.2 to 1.4.6, but I know I certainly didn't need 2+ farms to a single fermenter. More like 2 fermenters to a single farm.
 

Daemonblue

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Jul 29, 2019
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Let's see what I can recall...I had a dual layer cactus farm setup over top of my processing mess. I had...6 fermenters running (turned 2 or 3 of them off near the end, though) at the end, but that's not a great basis for discussion since I had introduced excess saplings from my tree farm into the mix and made 2 of the fermenters dedicated to run saplings. Anyway, had, essentially, 4 fermenters running cacti into biomass and 5 biofuel engines. The tank had about 400 buckets worth of biomass. That was being pumped into 4 stills that had filled a second 3x3 tank to 210 buckets or so. That's when I turned on the boiler.

How much power were you sending to your fermenters? You can give them so much power that they consume cacti and sugar cane in two of the bar's ticks so unless you have a constant stream of cacti going I'm not seeing how you could get a surplus of it.

Edit: I hooked up a filter to an ejector so I could set up a timer and it looks like you would need 1 cactus/sugar cane per second on a full powered fermenter to keep it up 100% of the time.
 

Ldog

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Jul 29, 2019
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As for the fertilizer part, you can run fermenters on mulch, which can be easily produced via a wheat farm and moisteners. With this you can get a lot of moss cobble that you can also turn into scrap, and you can prdouce tons of mulch when setup right.

Edit: Also, good find with the methane and centrifuges there. Personally I haven't tried any gregtech stuff since 1.4.2, but perhaps there are other fuels that might run liquid boilers easily?

Can make mycelium instead of stone too and make a mushroom farm, send the mushrooms off to fermenter as well. Mush farm also makes dirt. Not bad for a setup if you have treefarms and peatbogs as well.
One thing not noted on the Forestry wiki, I think it happened around the vanilla changes to huge mushrooms. Even though Sengir has them growing at a fixed custom size they still require the same amount of space around them as a vanilla or they wont grow (so if you stick the farm underground and let it dig out the space itself you need to go 1 wider and also can only use the center 3x3 space for pipes and whatnot). They also need to be in the dark (wiki says below 11, but 8 was too high).
 

Daemonblue

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Jul 29, 2019
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Well yes, but even with 2 15x15 sugarcane farms and a 15x15 cactus farm (I know, about 50% smaller than a 21x21, but still) I wasn't able to keep a fermenter running full steam - it couldn't even support two stills, and at full power it can fuel 4 stills to excess. This makes them rather space inefficient if they can't produce enough fuel and although the methane setup takes a lot of centrifuges per, it still beats out setting up a large amount of farms without also making you use a ton of machines like the scrap setup shown earlier in the thread.
 

zilvarwolf

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Jul 29, 2019
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How much power were you sending to your fermenters? You can give them so much power that they consume cacti and sugar cane in two of the bar's ticks so unless you have a constant stream of cacti going I'm not seeing how you could get a surplus of it.

Edit: I hooked up a filter to an ejector so I could set up a timer and it looks like you would need 1 cactus/sugar cane per second on a full powered fermenter to keep it up 100% of the time.
Good question.

I had a redstone power cell outputting 20mj/t out of one face to power all of the fermenters and stills. I was going to split that across two faces later, but I hadn't taken the time to assemble the additional 4 biogas engines and other hardware that would have been needed to keep up with the output.

As I understand it, the output from a single face is split across all of the machines, so I'm guessing about 2 or 3 mj/t to each device.

Come to think of it, one time I upped the output to 50 mj/t from that face and I did drain all of the cacti from the system, but it filled up pretty quickly when I throttled the output back to what the connected engines could keep up with.