Two platinum == Limitless iridium

[Bevo]

you completly and utterly missed his point.

No I didn't. His point was irrelevant to my point. Just because he said it needs to be midtier doesn't make my point that it is infinite any less true. Doesn't matter what tier it is, it is still infinite.

Those are power sources you can just place and forget about forever.

 

[raiju]

No I didn't. His point was irrelevant to my point. Just because he said it needs to be midtier doesn't make my point that it is infinite any less true. Doesn't matter what tier it is, it is still infinite.

Those are all power sources you can just place and forget about forever.

I don't think it's possible to realistically power a matter fab with base solars, because of the 1 eu/t and loss from cables meaning you won't be able to get a farm near big enough before you are paying so much in cabling and batteries to avoid loss that it makes itself redundant...

Advanced solars can slowly power a matter fab, but we're talking hours-to-day per UU-matter, 7 for one iridium 28 for 1 iridium plate.

Higher tier solars require iridium in the first place, you will not have large amounts of these to power one quickly.

On a side note, I don't like solar's infinite properties either, and in a discussion stated that solar panels should wear out their silicon or something and require replacing every few real life hours (silicon is really easy to make once you've started tbh) to be comparable to nuclear power.

I wouldn't be surprised if fusion had the capability to be infinite, as a point. It would require a lot of automation - a lot more than anything else - but it might be able to loop round centrifuges/electrolyzers from UU matter to get the deuterium/tritrium/H3.

Once again, theoretical can and realistic can are 2 different things, especially in the argument with gregtech.

To the person who said that this is clearly fine because gregtech allows it, gregtech has called it an exploit and will fix it. As fast as he changes things he's 1 person.

 

[Bevo]

I like the idea about something like a silicon cell wearing out.

One other that hasn't been brought up (kinda surprised) is geo's. They are very easy to make by the handfuls early game and I think we can all agree the nether has no shortage of lava.

But if I remember right you need something like 26 to power a matter fab? Still early game that isn't very hard to do. And once placed over a large nether lava lake would require little maintenance. Significantly less than the method mentioned in the OP using TE. May not actually be infinite, but pretty close.

 

[raiju]

I don't like geo's either - but I think that is a multifold problem as there are so many ways to access the lava. Honestly short of upping the recipe there isn't much greg could do there. There is also the issue of the magma crucible. I think most people just don't touch the subject because it's an annoyance how every modpack seems to support the idea of it, but it just is too easy to exploit.

I thought it was 26 then I redid my math. 26 will be more than enough to power a matter fab but to run it efficiently you'd be looking at 50+. This still isn't a lot of minerals as geothermals are early game, thermal generators are early-mid, and magmatic engines are early. Their cost is incredibly low that making 50 of them when you're at the iridium stage is usually not a big issue, save for the lack of tin.

There is also the issue that lava is lossless in terms of transportation even earlygame with mere cactus, unlike cabling.

If someone had a good suggestion to bring down geo (or bring other things up so it's less appealing) it'd probably be worth listening to. I do not.

 

[Bevo]

For geo's the best solution I can think of is to just not allow them in the nether.

Outside of the nether that many geo's really isn't possible currently. 26 (or 50) geos would require a crazy number of crucibles. And to power that many crucibles would require several maxed sized boilers to power, and a Redpwer/enderchest system for the lava probably wouldn't keep up with that many geo's. I think in the latest forge though they have fixed the railcraft/mystcraft bug, so once that is updated then it will be easy to get that much lava to the overworld if someone has access to the crystals for the portals.

 

[raiju]

For test purposes I made a 16 magma crucible with magmatic engine system, and that ran 24 geo's easily. Crucibles are really cheap. Magmatic engines require about 20 tin each but that's all. You pipe it round (iron pipes make this really simple) into a tank and the tank works as an MFSU. You can use glass tanks if you want "free" storage but I prefer the iron tank due to how much it holds and how awesome it looks. It's a fair amount of iron to dump though.

I saw someone in a another thread state that if you couldn't get lava from the nether that the TE dev would remove the nether-rack to lava conversion (or at least not make it profitable) as it's intended purpose was to reduce lag. I have no idea of the validity to that but if it were true it would make it an easy knockout by not allowing nether usage. you could also explain it with something like nether gas carrying charged dust or something that would blow up machinery. No pump = no go and assumably the TE dev would remove the netherrack conversion rate too.

 

[Skyqula]

For anyone with gregtech the infinite iridium will outweigh everything except the most extreme circumstances. Iridium is your bottle neck in high tier production, certainly not iron/diamonds/gems (redpower)/silver/gold. Tin has had it's world gen upped and copper is only a big deal if you want to make nuclear reactors for your generators.

Way to completly miss what i was talking about there. I was pointing out what rich slag is used for and that you are actually trading something in for it. Ass the posts before where argueing you are getting "free stuff" wich you in no way are. Also note that i am talking about ingots made from ores. Not gems, not diamonds and defenitly not iridium.

Actually I'd say that the rich slag mechanic **usable on dusts** is the problem. Being able to take any two ingots/dusts and duplicate them in high quantity is an issue. It's just that the worst example happens to be Gregtech based. Something in the future will be the next "intended to be rare" that gets duped.

No that isnt a problem. You are trading 5 ingots for 1 of choice. Thats 5 to 1. That is not a problem in the slightest. Note that you cannot use this on anny rare metal/ingot except for the new shiney dust wich, i repeat myself again for the 3th time here, is interchangable with plat dust probably due to an oversight.

Switch the mechanic to work with ores instead of dusts and the problem goes away.

No, moving it to ores would become a problem as it would remove the need to make the entire factorization production line by giving 4 instead of 3 ingots OR removing the entire point of rich slag IE trading 5 ingots to 1 of your choice because you are now trading 5 ingots to skip the factory line wich is pointless and a waste of 4/5 ingots. And lets face it, the factorization mod author is not going to rewrite the majority of his mod because of some ore dictionary problem.

 

[DoctorOr]

No that isnt a problem. You are trading 5 ingots for 1 of choice. Thats 5 to 1.

"Missing out on a third iron ingot" is not of serious concern. I have 400 ingots of iron/refined iron/steel, after having built a max railcraft HP boiler and several tanks. Iron is extremely plentiful with the FTB config.

Hell, you know you can grow iron with a plant, right?

Again, the problem isn't taking two things and making them three, once. The problem is taking two and making them three, then making them four, then making them five, then making them six... This is a clear and obvious exploit no matter what the item we're discussing and is as true for the vanilla sand generator as it is for platinum. Converting the rich slag mechanism to working with ores would conserve the uniqueness of the mechanism while eliminating the exploitability of both this specific concern and any similar concerns in the future.

 

[Skyqula]

Again, the problem isn't taking two things and making them three, once. The problem is taking two and making them three, then making them four, then making them five, then making them six..

except this is not what is happening.

We take 5 items and make it 15 OR we 5 items and make it 11. where nr 11, that 1 single ingot, is the item of choice. Want to repeat that same process? Sure you can! But you need another 5 items that you turn into 11 instead of 15. So no, you are not turning 2 into 3 into 4. You are turning 5 into 11, then another 5 into 11 then another 5 into 11.

The problem you are discribing is a gregtech problem with a non ore dust. Currently the only dust that works is shiney dust (wich might or might not be intended). Because of the ore dictionary plat dust counts as the same. Here is where the problem is, a non ore dust being dubbled because its allowed in the slag furnace where it shoudnt. So the problem is either shiney/plat being the same or shiney/plat working in the slag furnace. Not the slag mechanic.

Converting the rich slag mechanism to working with ores would conserve the uniqueness of the mechanism while eliminating the exploitability of both this specific concern and any similar concerns in the future.

Again, it would not. The uniqueness is not turning 10 iron into 2 and 1 gold into 3 gold. Its turning 5 iron into 10 and 1 gold into 4 at the cost of turning 10 iron into 15 and 1 gold into 3. Your "solution" makes the 1 to 4 step impossible and would remove the requirement of the entire factorization setup if you just want 1 to 3 for 1 of the metals instead of all of them. It might fix a gregtech only problem but creates another one entirely . Also i fail to see how a 5 to 1 ratio for common ore metals is a problem in anny way shape or form. There are plenty of mechines that provide small amounts of bonus dust from diverent metals aswell as thaumcraft allowing transmutations. This simply is a gregtech non/rare ore dust problem.

 

[DoctorOr]

except this is not what is happening.

We take 5 items and make it 15 OR we 5 items and make it 11. where nr 11, that 1 single ingot, is the item of choice. Want to repeat that same process?

15 is better than 11, but we're not dealing with numbers. We're dealing with specific items with differing rarity and value.

"15 iron ingots" or "10 iron ingots and a platinum ingot"
"15 pennies" or "10 pennies and a hundred dollar bill"

I take the second option, every time.

The problem you are discribing is a gregtech problem with a non ore dust.

The problem is the process working on dust, instead of ore. To correct the problem so it doesn't re-appear, the root cause should be fixed.

Again, it would not. The uniqueness is not turning 10 iron into 2 and 1 gold into 3 gold. Its turning 5 iron into 10 and 1 gold into 4 at the cost of turning 10 iron into 15 and 1 gold into 3.

Your description of intent relies on the TE author designing the mechanic for the specific purpose of allowing the ore processing method of an entirely different mod (which only happens to be in FTB and so is co-existant for us) which is not associated with TE. This would be at the exclusion of TE's own ore processing methods.

Yeah, I don't think so.

Also i fail to see how a 5 to 1 ratio for ore metals is a problem in anny way shape or form. There are plenty of mechines that provide small amounts of bonus dust from diverent metals aswell as thaumcraft allowing transmutations

And they all work with ores, which can't be re-processed. Thaumcraft transmutation is a lossy exercise, you put in slightly more metal than you get out, and only works with metals within a range of rarity, while platinum - even within the TE mod itself as shiny dust - is of such extreme rareity isn't not even on the same scale.

 

[King Lemming]

The real issue here isn't that it works with dusts, it's that Ingot -> Dust is possible. Even if I were to disallow it in TE, IC2 wouldn't. Forcing it to be Ore only would leave the Smelter dominating the Pulverizer mechanically, and that's not something I want to do. I'll see if I can't think of some way to resolve this.

In the meantime, I'd be lying if I said I didn't find it slightly amusing.

 

[Skyqula]

Your description of intent relies on the TE author designing the mechanic for the specific purpose of allowing the ore processing method of an entirely different mod (which only happens to be in FTB and so is co-existant for us) which is not associated with TE. This would be at the exclusion of TE's own ore processing methods.

Yeah, I don't think so.

Right back at ya. Gregtech is a different mod then TE. And since the problem occors in Gretgtech it should therefor be fixed inside of gregtech. Oh and its not like the mod authors all play on a mp server together or something, naaaa. No coöperation between them, that would be silly!

And they all work with ores, which can't be re-processed. Thaumcraft transmutation is a lossy exercise, you put in slightly more metal than you get out, and only works with metals within a range of rarity

Thank you for exactly discribing the slag mechanic.

15 is better than 11, but we're not dealing with numbers. We're dealing with specific items with differing rarity and value.

while platinum - even within the TE mod itself as shiny dust - is of such extreme rareity isn't not even on the same scale.

And also thank you for explaining the exact same problem i did. AKA :

a non ore/rare dust being dubbled because its allowed in the slag furnace where it shoudnt.

To correct the problem so it doesn't re-appear, the root cause should be fixed.

Mod author A implements a realy fast harvesting tool for a new block type: soft. Mod Athor B implements a new block and by mistake makes it block type: soft while he intended it to be a realy hard rock.

Should Mod author A's tool be nerfed/removed because mod author B made a mistake? Ofcourse not.

The slag mechanic is not the root of the problem. Its certain dusts being the exact same.

 

[DoctorOr]

Forcing it to be Ore only would leave the Smelter dominating the Pulverizer mechanically, and that's not something I want to do. I'll see if I can't think of some way to resolve this.

How does the smelter not dominate the pulverizer as is? 5% chance at a specific metal, or a 20% chance of a metal of your choice. I admit to maybe having missed a possible situation, there are 244 pulverizer recipes after all, but I can't find one in which I'd ever use the pulverizer on an ingot, assuming I had an induction smelter on hand. Instead, I'd use the pulverizer to make some sand.

----

Right back at ya. Gregtech is a different mod then TE. And since the problem occors in Gretgtech it should therefor be fixed inside of gregtech.

The problem occurs because there is a rare metal being used. Shiny dust while existent within TE is not being actively used. Were it being used, then the duplication problem would be entirely contained within TE.

 

[King Lemming]

How does the smelter not dominate the pulverizer as is? 5% chance at a specific metal, or a 20% chance of a metal of your choice. I admit to maybe having missed a possible situation, there are 244 pulverizer recipes after all, but I can't find one in which I'd ever use the pulverizer on an ingot, assuming I had an induction smelter on hand. Instead, I'd use the pulverizer to make some sand.

The problem is exactly that you can use the Pulverizer on an Ingot. Otherwise, you'd have to reasonably alternate between the two. Again, even if I disabled this, the IC2 Macerator would allow for it. I'll mull it over.

 

[Vovk]

what if rich slag gave you the type of ore bonus'd by the pulverizer instead of a replica of the 2 dusts?

so you'd need 2 ferrous dust to make 3 platinum with rich slag, 2 copper dust to make 3 gold with it, etc...

Or, it might even be a fair trade to say 2 ferrous dust + 1 rich slag = 1 platinum or 2 copper and 1 rich slag = 1 gold.

Or you could tell greg to make his recipes require more platinum/iridium - I'm sure he would see the extra grind as a good thing

 

[noskk]

Rich Slag (or the 2 dusts+ rich slag -> 3 dusts) is definitely a problem, let's not talk about GT and start with pulverizer+furnace and induction smelter, you have 5% chance to get specific dust from pulverizer and 20% chance to get any dust you want with induction smelter considering you have 2 dusts already (that requires sand which can be obtained easily with igneous extruder+pulverizer and extra MJ/t to grind the ingot to dust), I would use the second method any time. I know the second method requires a bit more energy, but it's not like MJ/t is hard to come by with all these new boiler+forestry or magmatic engine.

 

[Sprung]

I just did some testing in MindCrack v8. This magic carpet ride is over. Rich slag is down to 5% for most ores from 20%. Gold ore is at 10%. Additionally you get 2 shiny ingots rather than 3 now so the multiplication factor is gone and it uses sand instead of rich slag + platinum dust. If my math works out the only way to get a matter fabricator now is blind luck finding an ore in the wild or industrial grinding 384 ferrous ores. I have to say I am not please with this prospect.

 

[TruculentMC]

Are you crazy? It's still quite easy to get the Iridum for a Matterfabricator, no Platinum + Rich Slag shenanigans needed.

Step 1: Take your Jetpack to the End and mine 8 Sheldonite ore. Sheldonite is found in the floating asteroids, usually 2-4 per asteroid, so you may need to check 4-6 Asteroids before you find 8 ore. It is difficult to see as it has only a slight yellow texture shift from the default Endstone texture, but it's usually floating in space all alone, so not too difficult to spot.
Step 2: Process your Sheldonite in the Industrial Grinder with Mercury Cell as the liquid input. You get 12 Platinum Dust and 1 Iridium Ore per 4 Sheldonite, so 8 Sheldonite will give you 24 Platinum Dust and 2 Iridium Ore.
Step 3: Take 16 of the Platinum Dust to your Centrifuge and create 2 more Iridium Ore.
Step 4: Take your 4 Iridium Ore and compress it to ingot, then craft an Iridium Plate using the Rolling Machine and Implosion Compressor. Then create the Lapotron Orb from the resulting plate.
Step 5: Smelt 4 Platinum Ingot from the leftover Platinum Dusts. Create 4 Energyflow Circuit from the 4 Platinum Ingot.
Step 6: Create the other components of the Matterfabricator (HV Transformer, 2x Teleporter, 4x Highlyadvanced Machineblock) then combine into a Matter Fabricator.

If you didn't kill the Dragon yet, just bring an Ender Pouch and store your inventory, then fall out of the Void (this kills the Steve) to get back to the Overworld. You can use a different Ender Pouch or Ender Chest set to the same color combination to access the saved inventory once you're back in the Overworld.

It takes longer to process the ore than to mine it in the first place... I got 1+ stack of Sheldonite after an hour or two of mining in the End, which yield 40+ Iridium Ore when fully processed... enough for 10 Matterfabricators.

I just did some testing in MindCrack v8. This magic carpet ride is over. Rich slag is down to 5% for most ores from 20%. Gold ore is at 10%. Additionally you get 2 shiny ingots rather than 3 now so the multiplication factor is gone and it uses sand instead of rich slag + platinum dust. If my math works out the only way to get a matter fabricator now is blind luck finding an ore in the wild or industrial grinding 384 ferrous ores. I have to say I am not please with this prospect.

 

[Icarus White]

I have to say, even though this will make things much harder, it resolves a lot of the silliness that was present in previous versions - namely, the fact that you could get more rich slag by induction furnacing your ores directly than bonus ores by pulverizing. I mean, can you say 'dominated strategy'?

In any case, what can be replicated with rich slag?

 

[Sprung]

I tried to find some Sheldonite in my test world using a jet pack today specifically looking on asteroids. I did not have any luck. I did find lots of the other asteroid ores however.