Trials of Murder [GAME THREAD]

[Pyure]

Well the last thing I said sort of contradicts that strategy. You have no reason to give up the wolf. Even if it was people not verdicts, then defending the wolf anyways would get you the possibility of a point, while giving up the wolf would guarantee that the prosecution gets the win. Logically speaking, it would always be better to defend the wolf instead of giving him up.

I disagree. Once I have a "lead" in verdicts, I just want to end the game as quickly as possible. I can't do that (and win) if a) people stay alive instead of dying, and b) I lose the trust of The People.

But now that it's clarified, you really have no reason to give him up. A win is a win. If you get the wolf off then he gets lynched anyways, then both sides get a point instead of just the prosecution getting a point.

The reason I'm so adamant about this topic is if everyone accepts that the defence will give up any wolves they find, then if they change their mind at some point, then we have a high chance of just letting the wolves skirt by because the defense didn't give them up. With you advocating that you'll release the identity of any wolf, you make the village trust anything you say, which is incredibly dangerous. All this to say absolutely do not trust the defense when they say they'll give up any wolves they encounter. That said, if the defense does actually give up a wolf, I'd say trust that as they have absolutely no reason to lie about somebody being a wolf.

This is plausible, but its not my strategy. If someone is very wolfy, I'd rather give them up. You say I get a inno-verdict if I successfully defend them, but I say its at the cost of them being guilty-verdicted later (which cancels out my point) AND me losing the trust of the town.

Neither of those things is, of themselves, enough for me to defend a wolf, but put them together and on balance its enough for me to find it a poor winning strategy.

 

[Lethosos]

Here is my final word on this: Vike decided I was guilty because I was perfectly fine with using Fowl (whom, to me and pretty much anyone else, is pretty much Town,) as a means of gathering MORE evidence against possible wolves. Here's the thing: I know, you know it, and so does Vike, that the defense would win the trial on him. Vike, being a power player, doesn't want to lose even a single point even in a fact-finding trial. That is why he is accusing me of bandwagoning, even though both Eru (of whom I originally was going to suggest using as a stalking horse,) and Fowl have equal chances of winning this round.

Cheese, in the future please come up with some sort of incentive to prevent this kind of point-mongering abuse.

 

[Pyure]

Cheese, in the future please come up with some sort of incentive to prevent this kind of point-mongering abuse.

Isn't that the point of this setup?

 

[LivingAngryCheese]

Here is my final word on this: Vike decided I was guilty because I was perfectly fine with using Fowl (whom, to me and pretty much anyone else, is pretty much Town,) as a means of gathering MORE evidence against possible wolves. Here's the thing: I know, you know it, and so does Vike, that the defense would win the trial on him. Vike, being a power player, doesn't want to lose even a single point even in a fact-finding trial. That is why he is accusing me of bandwagoning, even though both Eru (of whom I originally was going to suggest using as a stalking horse,) and Fowl have equal chances of winning this round.

Cheese, in the future please come up with some sort of incentive to prevent this kind of point-mongering abuse.

It's called playing the game leth. It's his win condition.

 

[sgbros1]

This seems a wee bit unfair for the defendants.

So let's say there's 4 wolves. By some sweet chance all 4 of them were found guilty in the first 2 days.

So prosecutors have 4, defendants have 0.

And the prosecutors will have a guaranteed 4 wins in order for the game to end.

Seems a bit unfair, doesn't it?

So it seems the best strategy for the defendants is to randomly try innocent people and prove them innocent.

 

[sgbros1]

not sure if sarcastic or not....would you rather 4AM in the morning?

Yeah, at least I could vote at night and go to bed.

 

[SoraZodia]

Here is my final word on this: Vike decided I was guilty because I was perfectly fine with using Fowl (whom, to me and pretty much anyone else, is pretty much Town,) as a means of gathering MORE evidence against possible wolves. Here's the thing: I know, you know it, and so does Vike, that the defense would win the trial on him. Vike, being a power player, doesn't want to lose even a single point even in a fact-finding trial. That is why he is accusing me of bandwagoning, even though both Eru (of whom I originally was going to suggest using as a stalking horse,) and Fowl have equal chances of winning this round.

Cheese, in the future please come up with some sort of incentive to prevent this kind of point-mongering abuse.

I'm petty sure that he and other people went after you because you became the most suspicious person at that time. If you had voted for someone else or had explained before the recap that you voted Fowl for the purpose of generating discussion, you probably won't be in this situation right now.

Send from my phone via tapaonomtalk

 

[sgbros1]

vote RealKC for getting on the trial. @LivingAngryCheese am I allowed to do this?

(Before I start yes I know I'm triple posting, can't quote in edits. Btw be grateful that I'm finally active. I'm gonna be gone afterwards.

Dammit someone ninjad
Edit: ooh duckie ninja'd me! )

Just be careful here guys (by guys I mean people who haven't voted yet). KC is basically pulling a me right now. He may be a villager, for all we know. And putting him on trial could just hurt the defendants, considering he has a strong case against himself.

 

[Lethosos]

Well, I'm generating discussion right now, ain't I? Not my first choice of doing it, but Vike and I already went over it and he still wants wins for his team.

Sent from my Puzzle Box of Yogg-Saron using Tapatalk 2

 

[goreae]

This seems a wee bit unfair for the defendants.

So let's say there's 4 wolves. By some sweet chance all 4 of them were found guilty in the first 2 days.

So prosecutors have 4, defendants have 0.

And the prosecutors will have a guaranteed 4 wins in order for the game to end.

Seems a bit unfair, doesn't it?

So it seems the best strategy for the defendants is to randomly try innocent people and prove them innocent.

Yes absolutely that would be entirely broken. But here's the thing: that's nearly impossible. All the wolves are not likely to be killed in the first 2 days. Even if they are put on trial they could worm their way out pretty easily as it is just the first 2 days.

Now what the heck is your point here? Because I don't see one. You're saying that if a unicorn suddenly appears then the game is broken, but assuming that the unicorn is just a myth, how does that logic go towards the game then?

 

[sgbros1]

Yes absolutely that would be entirely broken. But here's the thing: that's nearly impossible. All the wolves are not likely to be killed in the first 2 days. Even if they are put on trial they could worm their way out pretty easily as it is just the first 2 days.

Now what the heck is your point here? Because I don't see one. You're saying that if a unicorn suddenly appears then the game is broken, but assuming that the unicorn is just a myth, how does that logic go towards the game then?

I'm just saying that the best strategy now for the defendants is to put people on trial and win, not to seek out wolves.

Then again, I wrote that at 4am, so maybe I'm just tired.

 

[RJS]

Well, we need to be mindful that, as of present, both defendants are getting jailed tonight. If anybody feels that either is innocent, it is going to require some affirmative action from the town and not just debate ad nauseam.

Personally, Vote sgbros Innocent. The fact that nobody really voted for him, plus the absence of anything really to make me view him as a likely wolf, plus the fact that nothing he has done stands out from vanillager sg, informs that choice.

Leth I'm not so sure on. I'm not convinced by what he said. I think I'm going to take the opposite side here and vote Lethosos guilty.

 

[SpwnX]

I'll tell you something, if we go by math, everything is possible, even aliens, so, no, that is a poor defense. Sorry to say that.

===========================================================================
Now, I have one thing that really does make me think that sgbros is innocent.
This (from the private convo with me sg and pyure):

I actually have no clue what my role is.

Cheese never sent one to me.

combined with this:

By the way, if you haven't got a role by now, You're a basic villager!

He wouldn't say so if he were a wolf/murderer, since he would be part of two convos and thus would have never thought of such thing.
I would doubt of that if we were talking of someone else, but, no, we're not.

 

[VikeStep]

I'll tell you something, if we go by math, everything is possible, even aliens, so, no, that is a poor defense. Sorry to say that.

===========================================================================
Now, I have one thing that really does make me think that sgbros is innocent.
This (from the private convo with me sg and pyure):

combined with this:

He wouldn't say so if he were a wolf/murderer, since he would be part of two convos and thus would have never thought of such thing.
I would doubt of that if we were talking of someone else, but, no, we're not.

The prosecution are willing to withdraw from our guilty verdict on sgbros as this reasoning is irrefutable proof that sg is town. However we are locked into our verdicts so we request everyone else who hasn't to vote innocent on sgbros.

Remember, the prosecution wants to find wolves, not innocents. Thank you.

 

[VikeStep]

Here I have a serious reason.

In what situation is there ever a reason for you to vote yourself and to keep the reason secret.

The only secrets in town should be those regarding the identities of innocents with power roles.

 

[Fraction2]

To kick things off: Vote sgbros1 as innocent. The defense did a great job with him.

Here's the thing: I know, you know it, and so does Vike, that the defense would win the trial on him. Vike, being a power player, doesn't want to lose even a single point even in a fact-finding trial. That is why he is accusing me of bandwagoning, even though both Eru (of whom I originally was going to suggest using as a stalking horse,) and Fowl have equal chances of winning this round.

Ves, Vike wants to lynch people. Yes, Eruantien would be more likely to find to be found innocent because at the moment he seems less like a wolf. However, your wolfishness is why you are on trial. That is the goal of the trial, to find wolves.

Let's start with:
A quick timeline of events: (note: if you feel misrepresented by my persona of you, get over it. I don't care)

Pyure: "fowltief have butcher knives, plz trial his self"
RealKC: "Pyure wants to defend people, yet voted for fowltief, clearly there is something there we need to investigate. Put fowltief on the stand"
goreae and I: "pyure no want find wolves, don't listen him"
RJS: "Let us listen to Pyure, fowltief is indeed defending himself under pressure. Wolves don't like to be voted for." (not the greatest reason)
Pyure: "he probs innocents, I want him to trial so I can find him innocents. peeps follow me blindly so pyures win"

Yes I suggested tossing fowltief on the stand because he had absolutely nothing suspicious about him. There's no real reason I should try to pretend that I'm going to help put suspicious people on the stand.

Lethosos: "Pyure sounds reasonable, good sir. There is no legitimate reason to try fowltief; therefore, I am in favour of placing him up for a trial of his peers. This will help us find a wolf (who is certainly not me)."

Originally I was gonna suggest Eru-10 for the stand as a warmup, but Pyure's explanation for fowl is just as valid, so I'll go ahead and also suggest fowl for trial.

To think about this:
While I understand that your intention may have been to generate discussion, and that is a wonderful cover; I'm also saying that your action is indicative of a wolf joining a bandwagon. You may be a villager, but you look a lot more wolfish than your counterpart on trial. Do you see why?

The D1 lynch is useful to the village, because it allows them to see who jumps on the bandwagon (Lethosos, RJS), who doesn't spend time analysing around multiple players (most of us yesterday), and who isn't trying to actually find wolves. RJS, at least, provided a reason behind his vote, albeit one that I disagree with. As a villager, if I get accused I'm going to defend myself. It's when I'm a wolf that I'll usually sit back and hope it blows over. It's my biggest tell as a wolf, I'm super inactive in the thread. I do my talking in the wolf conversation instead.

Maths with a question at the end:
With 16 non-legal players remaining, there's probably 4 wolves. The role sheet says 1/4 of players, so math. (Question, @LivingAngryCheese, the role sheet says roughly 1/4 of players. Is that starting players or mortal non-super-cool-legal-team players?)

@Shazam08, @VikeStep: you're the prosecution, so I know your position against the accused. But does anything Lethosos said today stand out to you? Personally, I think the "please rebalance the game" line of commenting reads wolf to me, but I'm not confident in the validity of my statements. Also, is there anyone you can suggest for trial tomorrow?

@Pyure, @SpwnX: what can you say about Lethosos's innocence? Is there a solid reason to not put him to death?

@the_j485: you haven't said too much. If you get a break from revisions, what do you think about Lethosos? Do you think he is a wolf?

@lenscas: you said neither of them screamed wolf. It that still the case? If you were to vote now, how would it be?

@RealKC: why did you vote so early? Why not give them a chance to defend themselves?

Everybody else: What is your opinion of Lethosos wolfiness? Does anybody else read wolf from him?

If I screwed anything up here, let me know. I wrote and rewrote parts of this so many times I'm now reading over my revisions, I honestly can't tell what I've written any more in places.

 

[LivingAngryCheese]

There are 3 wolves

 

[Fraction2]

I'm petty sure that he and other people went after you because you became the most suspicious person at that time. If you had voted for someone else or had explained before the recap that you voted Fowl for the purpose of generating discussion, you probably won't be in this situation right now.

I think he did:

My reasoning on fowl is simply that there's quite literally zero proof of wolfhood at this point, so pushing for either fowl or Eru-10 is the same as pushing for anyone else at this time.

More importantly, we need to shake the tree and see what falls out. And we can't do that without picking someone first, and what better way than a likely towny? Let the defense win that round, it's what happens that gives you what you need to get your wolves.

The issue is that he stills seems wolfish.

I'll see what the prosecution has to say, but at the moment I'm inclined to put RealKC on trial tomorrow. RJS would be my second choice. Coming up with people after that is a bit of a challenge, there isn't an incredible amount of activity.

 

[goreae]

I'll go ahead and vote now. Vote sgbros innocent. His initial defence seemed quite sincere, there's the proof from spwnx (which could be fabricated so you could ignore that) plus the fact that the only reason he was put on trial is he was inactive.

Lethosos however, I'll abstain. I don't really go one way or the other so I'll let everyone else decide there.

 

[Eruantien]

I'll agree with voting SG innocent - consider that bolded, I'll try and fix it later, along with making a final decision on leth.

Sent from my NS-P16AT08 using Tapatalk