Too many Diamonds in Unleashed

[un worry]

Ran my first 4 x max sized quarries in an Unleashed 1.1/Vanilla Desert

results for each quarry: http://i.imgur.com/KumhzKE.png

There's the expected random variation between quarries, however there appears to be an inverse relationship between the amount of lava (obsidian) and diamond yield, which is worth investigation. Lava lakes below y20 may be a factor, although the redstone counts were comparable between quarries.

Anyway, off to up the sample size. I'll focus on desert biomes for now. 16 quarries are placed, just waiting for some more storage disks to finish crafting.

Will table some preliminary results mid-week. Remember, it's just for fun

 

[Zjarek_S]

Generation is now bumped up in unleashed. I'll use terminology from CoFH core to compare current generation (server version, 1.1.7) with default Minecraft one (data in net.minecraft.world.biome.BiomeDecorator in minecraft src with forge installed).

Ore            Vanilla                    1.1.7 Unleashed COFHCore world.cfg

------    ClusterSize NumClusters      ClusterSize NumClusters

Coal        16          20                16          20

Iron          8          20                12          20

Gold          8          2                12            3

Redstone      7          8                  8            8

Diamond      7          1                10            1

Lapis        6          1                  6            1

Edit: One more thing, cluster size doesn't mean MAX cluster size.

Edit 2: And another info that I just remembered. Ore gets generated after caves in order from dirt and gravel to diamond and lapis. Ore blocks can only generate in stone or in modded blocks specially marked (like RP2 marble, or underground biomes blocks). Algorithm will not retry "failed" placements (in air, dirt, or other non stone block) this position will be skipped.

 

[MagusUnion]

Well, there are configs for a reason, but then again I don't believe in a such thing as 'too much resources'...

I will say that default settings of Unleash leaves me with too little Copper/Tin that I would like, and too much Iron and Gold. Course, I solve this issue with Transmutation, but even that is a bit of a chore...

 

[Runo]

Couple of things. Very important:

1) You're not citing your sources. I cited mine.

2) This thread isn't about ore gen in general, it's about diamonds. We're not talking about ore gen in general, we're talking about diamonds. I don't give a rat's ass about gold, iron, or dirt.

Moreover, I said the world.cfg file from Thermal Expansion doesn't have minimum vein sizes.

I say one thing, you twist it and respond to something else. We say diamonds, you say ore gen. I say TE World.cfg, you say veins in general. I say cite your sources, you don't. 8 -> 10, 9 -> 10...it doesn't matter. Nobody is going to notice the difference after a single mining trip. Whether it's a 10% increase or a 25% increase, you'd have to mine thousands of chunks before you'd be able to say with any proper credibility what impact it has on the player experience. Some guy who finds 3-4 veins at the intersection of 4 chunks and comes here wanting to know what changed doesn't need to have low-brow logic reinforced by people who can't manage a congruent discussion.

Stop it. Join the same conversation that we're on or go converse somewhere else. Don't come in here changing the topic and arguing like we've been on your topic the whole damn time.

Take a good look at Zarek's post. I was at work, not about to dig around on a tiny screen on my phone at lunch for the exact source when I know its out there and that what you were stating was false. I jumped in the conversation because you attempted to control it with a negative and derogatory tone in the post I initially responded to. You don't say it to anyone directly, but insinuate that anyone who thinks ore gen in unleashed is unusual is a superstitious idiot. Sorry, but its not a rumor, its a fact that oregen in unleashed is high. People who play unleashed coming from another FTB pack are shocked, unsurprisingly, because it has much higher ore gen rates than unhinged, ultimate, and mindcrack. They come to talk about it. You turn around and throw underhanded insults in the thread to attempt to quash the discussion, then change it to how ore gen doesn't matter after you get called out on your bullshit rumor accusation. If it doesn't matter, why in the hell are you even in the thread? Oh, that's right, to trash on the OP in a sardonic rant, the post I responded to out of irritation.

Get your head out of your ass.

 

[Enigmius1]

Take a good look at Zarek's post. I was at work, not about to dig around on a tiny screen on my phone at lunch for the exact source when I know its out there and that what you were stating was false. I jumped in the conversation because you attempted to control it with a negative and derogatory tone in the post I initially responded to. You don't say it to anyone directly, but insinuate that anyone who thinks ore gen in unleashed is unusual is a superstitious idiot. Sorry, but its not a rumor, its a fact that oregen in unleashed is high. People who play unleashed coming from another FTB pack are shocked, unsurprisingly, because it has much higher ore gen rates than unhinged, ultimate, and mindcrack. They come to talk about it. You turn around and throw underhanded insults in the thread to attempt to quash the discussion, then change it to how ore gen doesn't matter after you get called out on your bullshit rumor accusation. If it doesn't matter, why in the hell are you even in the thread? Oh, that's right, to trash on the OP in a sardonic rant, the post I responded to out of irritation.

Get your head out of your ass.

Again, you're still talking about ore gen in a thread talking about diamonds. Why?

 

[Tristam Izumi]

Again, you're still talking about ore gen in a thread talking about diamonds. Why?

Because diamonds are an ore?

 

[Enigmius1]

Because diamonds are an ore?

The context is a little more specific than ores in general. Do you understand what is meant by the word "context"? I know at least one person in this thread who doesn't.

 

[Tristam Izumi]

The context is a little more specific than ores in general. Do you understand what is meant by the word "context"? I know at least one person in this thread who doesn't.

Well, by my understanding, the way that ore (and thus diamonds) is generated (and thus can be considered "too plentiful") is exactly the topic of discussion. In this case, since ore generation is modified from vanilla via an outside source (in this case CofH core, though other outside sources are capable of doing this, and yes, this is besides the point), this is the focal point of the discussion.

The discussion on *how* the ore generation is modified is not only informative for people unaware of the changes, but also instructional for people that are interested in changing it themselves. Heck, you're one of the individuals doing a lot of the edification on how Minecraft generates ores in newly created chunks, which I thank you for doing. It will hopefully make there be less uninformed posts in the future (a futile hope, but a hope nonetheless).

All in all, I'm not exactly sure where this is going or why we're discussing the semantics of it since, to me, this whole thread has been on topic. Aside from this aside, that is. And yes, I'm tired and rambly so don't mind me.

 

[Adonis0]

Conclusion of this thread: Ore generation (and thus diamonds) have been edited to be increased slightly, but not by a great extent

Thus, we can all safely leave the panic nerf button alone for the moment

 

[namiasdf]

So... If none of you know anything about statistics and probability, a RNG is a random number generator. There are several ways to implement this in terms of resource generations. Here are a couple.

(a) Every single block, roll a "dice". Depending on the value of the dice, set block value to "x", where x is the block ID for whatever is rolled. There are more faces to this die that are stone, than there are of ores, obviously. You roll a different dice depending on what y-value you are at, as copper doesn't spawn below "n" and diamond only spawns below "m".

(b) Generate an string of numbers, similar to a SEED. i.e. The number used to generate your world. That algorithm may contain several implementations that define a systematic way to which your world is randomly generated. i.e. Put swamp next to desert next to ocean, repeat three times then start next world gen algorithm. This algorithm would also contain the RNG that determines your ore generation.

In the end, the mod can only control the probability that an ore spawns. In order to determine whether an ore gen is OP you would need to take several samples of multiple independent chunks, even worlds and determine the mean value, standard deviation and other statistical values. Once those are known you can state the ore gen rate as x +/- y per chunk and compare it to (a) other ore gen statistics or (b) previous values of same ore gen, prior to mod addition.

I have 15 minutes till the bus comes, give me a break. I'm bored.

 

[Succubism]

So, recently acquired 36 diamonds withing 30 mins of wander mining, and only a single unenchanted iron pick. Does anyone else think this is too much?

If any of this has been said so far, by all means, feel free to disregard what I'm about to say.

Unleashed uses an ore distribution method that increases the density of ores around the world. It makes it easier to hunt/gather for ores so that you maintain a constant slow of building/making/inventing and you're not stopped by something so mundane as grinding for ores. This is one of the major focuses of the modpack and it's not the only one that does it because as said previously diamonds aren't the most important thing in this modpack. There are much rarer, more valuable things in the world than diamonds and not everything needs diamonds.

Hexxit, for example, uses a surface ore modification that puts diamonds/redstone etc at the same kind of distribution as coal.

Unleashed is not the modpack for hard-moders. There are better packs for that, namely Unhinged. I'm sure there are more on ATLauncher as well.

 

[PierceSG]

Uranium is probably rarer and for people who want to make those UHSP, they will need shit ton of those ores. Or breed bees.

Nothing else gets them for you. MFR Laser Drill doesn't yield those. UUM doesn't make those. Quarry might but it isn't renewable and makes ugly holes (not including Mystcraft mining age).

 

[MigukNamja]

..and it's for this reason that I really like bees. While there are some bees that are OP, they are far and few between and the bees as a whole seem well-balanced.

The diamond-making bees, for example, top out around 70 to 100 diamonds per day on a chunkloaded server, and that's with the 'Fastest Production' trait in an Alveary with 6+ Impregnated Frames, i.e. quite a lot of bee breeding with a decent infrastructure required.

This is roughly on par with the MFR Laser and quarries.

A bee setup that *approximates* a fully-powered quarry running full-time - excluding cobblestone, dirt,and gravel - requires around 40 to 50 un-framed Alveraries or around 15 fully-framed Alvearies. Sure, it's fire and forget after it's setup, but the journey there is not short.

 

[Hoff]

Uranium is probably rarer and for people who want to make those UHSP, they will need shit ton of those ores. Or breed bees.

Nothing else gets them for you. MFR Laser Drill doesn't yield those. UUM doesn't make those. Quarry might but it isn't renewable and makes ugly holes (not including Mystcraft mining age).

Turtles>>> quarries.

16 turtles running this program for infinity yields at least a stack of Uranium a day. You can set them a few thousands of blocks out and never see them again.

 

[un worry]

TL;DR Between Unleashed 1.1.1 and 1.3, Diamonds have tripled! http://i.imgur.com/Xi80aep.jpg

Results of the survey of four sites: each running 4x max-sized quarries to bedrock (total of 64 chunks, 128m x 128m, biome boundaries permitting)

Background
This is my original Unleashed v1.1 world (+ Gregtech, -Dartcraft), initially generated with BoP disabled -- and having spawned in a nice Plains and scouted a hundred blocks in each direction, I exited and enabled BoP.

Quarry Sites

• The first is a Desert biome, close by spawn - BoP disabled
• The second site, 500 metres out, generated with BoP (presence of quicksand a good indicator)
  Note: though close to spawn, neither of these undergrounds had been previously explored, confirmed by piston-xray
• The third and fourth (a Desert and a BoP Dunes) are in newly explored terrain (Unleashed v1.3) 3000m away,

Observations
The first pair of deserts (1.1) are similar, consistent with random variation. The second pair (1.3) likewise.

However, some of the yield differences between Unleashed 1.1 and 1.3 generated biomes are huge, for example:

• Uranium, GT Rubies and Ferrous ore are on par, but
  
• BOP Rubies and Iron has almost doubled
• Diamonds have almost tripled
• Gold has tripled

Actual diamonds ore generation has jumped from 2.3 to 6.3 average per chunk. Happy to table all the results if anyone's interested. Whatever was "tweaked" in later versions of Unleashed, it's resulted in a significant increase in diamonds. The numbers speak for themselves: http://i.imgur.com/Xi80aep.jpg

 

[Enigmius1]

TL;DR Between Unleashed 1.1.1 and 1.3, Diamonds have tripled! http://i.imgur.com/Xi80aep.jpg

Results of the survey of four sites: each running 4x max-sized quarries to bedrock (total of 64 chunks, 128m x 128m, biome boundaries permitting)

Background
This is my original Unleashed v1.1 world (+ Gregtech, -Dartcraft), initially generated with BoP disabled -- and having spawned in a nice Plains and scouted a hundred blocks in each direction, I exited and enabled BoP.

Quarry Sites

• The first is a Desert biome, close by spawn - BoP disabled
• The second site, 500 metres out, generated with BoP (presence of quicksand a good indicator)
  Note: though close to spawn, neither of these undergrounds had been previously explored, confirmed by piston-xray
• The third and fourth (a Desert and a BoP Dunes) are in newly explored terrain (Unleashed v1.3) 3000m away,

Observations
The first pair of deserts (1.1) are similar, consistent with random variation. The second pair (1.3) likewise.

However, some of the yield differences between Unleashed 1.1 and 1.3 generated biomes are huge, for example:

• Uranium, GT Rubies and Ferrous ore are on par, but
  
• BOP Rubies and Iron has almost doubled
• Diamonds have almost tripled
• Gold has tripled

Actual diamonds ore generation has jumped from 2.3 to 6.3 average per chunk. Happy to table all the results if anyone's interested. Whatever was "tweaked" in later versions of Unleashed, it's resulted in a significant increase in diamonds. The numbers speak for themselves: http://i.imgur.com/Xi80aep.jpg

You're not running enough samples. If you go to any college/university in the world and take an entry level statistics course, you're going to be told likely on day one that fewer than 1000 samples is statistically insignificant due to the potential for outliers to influence the outcome on smaller sample sizes. We've already discussed what would influence diamond spawn rates and there's nothing about any changes to diamonds on any level that would yield anything even close to triple the yield. Once we finally got a lock on the proper reliable vanilla generation, the difference is trivial and most players will never notice the increase. What they will notice are lucky happenstance like finding 2-4 iron veins at the intersection of a few chunks that make it look like all the diamonds were practically in the same place. Then we get threads claiming 30 diamonds in 30 minutes amg how could this be?

It's not triple. I appreciate your effort but 110% effort applied to an irrelevant endeavor doesn't suddenly make it relevant.

 

[un worry]

It is almost triple (2.8x), it is a significant enough sample that any error is trivial when talking in factors and, regardless of "configuration settings", it speaks to what is actually in the ground.

So, collecting data on one thousand and twenty diamonds, from an area of 4 million blocks within 244 chunks, comparing sets of 64 chunks across identical specifications and finding each set comparable and within a standard deviation, makes comparing the two larger sets against differing specs both significant and valid.

You may personally have a problem with what these findings indicate, but the approach was robust enough to yield results which clearly show there is a major discrepancy between versions. Whatever the changes to configurations or algorithms, what was actually generated is the focus of my exercise.

As you have expressed your view that this endevour is futile, I would kindly ask that you refrain from trolling this thread, so that others can share their views and interpret the data.

 

[Neirin]

First of all, any discussion comparing vanilla resources to FTB resources needs to account for our plethora of automatic mining techniques. Even if you manually mine, we're blessed with all sorts of things that streamline the process of mining. You will inevitably end up mining more resources than you would in vanilla. The hope is that you use resources at a proportional rate.

Diamonds get a double-whammy compared to other resources, though, in that we are also probably not using diamonds for anything that we normally would in vanilla (i.e. gear). Moreover, because diamonds are still perceived as a luxury resource, their uses tend to be limited to luxury items - one off items like a Beealyzer or major pieces of infrastructure like a Soul Shard or Quarry. This isn't a hard rule, but as a general trend I don't think that's much of a stretch.

The overall effect is that we end up feeling flush with diamonds pretty quickly. If you wanted to keep diamonds feeling as special as they do in vanilla, you'd probably have to reduce the spawn rate compared to vanilla.

However, because of the way FTB mining scales (get diamonds to make turtles to get diamonds to get more turtles to get more diamonds...) even doing that would really only be a token gesture. The only real scarcity in FTB is made by putting things out of the standard mining route. Nether resources aren't quarried as much, for instance, and manufactured resources can be downright aggravating to accrue in large amounts until you get later into the game (i.e. iridium and steel).

 

[Ripley]

For info I checked the config(who thought we could do that instead of taking irrelevant samples) and TE config is set to the default for diamond:
diamond {
I:ClusterSize=10
I:MaxY=20
I:MinY=5
I:NumClusters=1
B:RetroGen=false
}

I don't think those values changed since unleashed was released.

 

[un worry]

I don't think those values changed since unleashed was released.

Which is why I am perplexed by the results. Perhaps worldgen was bugged in the first release or the code has changed to retry vein generation when it fails in a given chunk - or something else again. Whatever the config settings, what is actually generated has changed significantly for some ores in later versions of Unleashed.

As to OP's question if there are too many, well ... diamond's are a girls best friend.