Tinkerer's construct balance ideas

[PhilHibbs]

I'm not stating he's an imposer,

I apologise. I've conflated two different sets of opinions, I should be more careful to check who I'm replying to, especially when I'm calling people out for inaccurate accusations, and then do the same thing myself...

 

[Hydra]

I'm not stating he's an imposer, I'm only stating that he's stated a fact of which isn't correct. I respect his opinion, I'm merely pointing where any flaws in his opinion are, that's all

No one is statings facts. PhilHibbs is correct in what he's saying. I don't know why, but a lot of people seem to think if someone says "X is" on a board they're stating a fact when in fact it depends totally on the context of the message what they mean it "X is". The moon is round is an objective fact (or well, go ahead if you want to debate that but I'm not having any ), that tinkers construct is "overpowered" or "perfect" are just opinions. I totally agree with that the way he presents this opinions is pretty childish (it's immature to just ignore whatever people are saying and keep pushing your own view) but in no way is he trying to impose his opinion as an objective fact.

Aside from that his (the OP's) reasoning is completely flawed and I can't take him seriously anyway

 

[keybounce]

I hope you won't consider me rude for asking to see this statement myself. A link or a direct quote would be great. It's always best to cite your sources, after all.

Sure.

Baa, minecraftforum.net is having SQL driver issues right now.
Will post it later.

 

[Ember Quill]

I totally agree with that the way he presents this opinions is pretty childish (it's immature to just ignore whatever people are saying and keep pushing your own view) but in no way is he trying to impose his opinion as an objective fact.

I dunno, if I knew nothing about TiCo, I'd probably believe he was stating objective facts. Not once is it even implied in any of his posts that he is stating opinions rather than unassailable facts.

The one thing that I would maybe possibly agree on is the fact that TiCo really doesn't belong in the UHS pack.

A lot of keybounce's arguments actually start to make at least a little bit of sense, if you assume he's talking about the UHS pack exclusively, rather than about TiCo in general. Unfortunately, a lot of these arguments are contingent on TiCo's position in the UHS pack. In the other FTB packs, TiCo is one of several ways to double ores, has tools that are comparable to other mod-added tools, and is fairly well balanced. In the UHS pack, which doesn't contain TE, IC2, Factorization, or Modular Powersuits, TiCo does actually start to seem really overpowered to me, as it's the ONLY option for doubling ores and endgame tools, rather than just one of several.

So I'd say it's more of a problem with the UHS pack than with TiCo itself.

EDIT: Unfortunately, this means that attempting to rebalance TiCo for UHS will make it almost useless in the Unleashed and DW20 packs.

 

[Antice]

I dunno, if I knew nothing about TiCo, I'd probably believe he was stating objective facts. Not once is it even implied in any of his posts that he is stating opinions rather than unassailable facts.

The one thing that I would maybe possibly agree on is the fact that TiCo really doesn't belong in the UHS pack.

A lot of keybounce's arguments actually start to make at least a little bit of sense, if you assume he's talking about the UHS pack exclusively, rather than about TiCo in general. Unfortunately, a lot of these arguments are contingent on TiCo's position in the UHS pack. In the other FTB packs, TiCo is one of several ways to double ores, has tools that are comparable to other mod-added tools, and is fairly well balanced. In the UHS pack, which doesn't contain TE, IC2, Factorization, or Modular Powersuits, TiCo does actually start to seem really overpowered to me, as it's the ONLY option for doubling ores and endgame tools, rather than just one of several.

So I'd say it's more of a problem with the UHS pack than with TiCo itself.

And that is where the op has gone wrong in his argumentation. he seems to want TiCo to be by default rebalanced for use in the UHC pack, when the simple truth is that UHC is just one of many packs that includes TiCo. his plead for special consideration for his prefered pack is imho an ego fallacy.
Ego fallacy as in the op seem to think that his desires are more important than anyone elses.
Nothing angers the crowd more than some egomaniac declaring that his/her opinion is more valuable than anyone elses.

 

[Vauthil]

Which brings me to pointing out something pretty darn funny: The pack mDiyo regularly streams playing is UHS with a couple additions of his choosing. If there's any pack where he's clearly aware of the interactions and balance and has intentions for it, it's that one (consider where traps/barricades came from and that he specifically wrote the Prayers mini-mod for that pack).

 

[keybounce]

Alright, minecraft forums are back up.

A lot of keybounce's arguments actually start to make at least a little bit of sense, if you assume he's talking about the UHS pack exclusively, rather than about TiCo in general. Unfortunately, a lot of these arguments are contingent on TiCo's position in the UHS pack. In the other FTB packs, TiCo is one of several ways to double ores, has tools that are comparable to other mod-added tools, and is fairly well balanced. In the UHS pack, which doesn't contain TE, IC2, Factorization, or Modular Powersuits, TiCo does actually start to seem really overpowered to me, as it's the ONLY option for doubling ores and endgame tools, rather than just one of several.

So I'd say it's more of a problem with the UHS pack than with TiCo itself.

EDIT: Unfortunately, this means that attempting to rebalance TiCo for UHS will make it almost useless in the Unleashed and DW20 packs.

Actually, I was comparing TiCo, not so much as a UHS pack member, but in comparison to _vanilla_. My mistake was doing it on a forum based on supporting Unleashed/Dw20/Etc packs.

References:

http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/1824760-tinkers-construct-suggestions/

- The mod is designed as an extension of vanilla and custom maps.
- For the purposes of suggestions, other mods do not exist.

... Oh, the second quote I was looking for, on re-reading, was about bukkit versus forge, not vanilla versus mod (specifically about being able to place cobble or torches in bukkit-protected areas).

 

[Flipz]

Just something I should point out to everyone: there is no such thing as "facts" when discussing "balance". From the statistics given on the Minecraft website, there are 12,032,221 and counting different definitions of "balanced" Minecraft play. Not only does that mean that there is no such thing as an objective "true balance", it also means there's not even a chance of coming to a near-universal consensus. You can only decide what's "balanced" for you, just as the mod authors and mudpack developers try to decide what "balanced" means for them as they implement their mods and modpacks.

TL;DR: "Balanced" is defined differently for each individual person, so there's no way of saying something is "balanced" or "unbalanced"; there's only saying some thing is "balanced/unbalanced for me".

 

[Dex Luther]

So after playing around with Tinkerer's Construct a little, I'm a bit thrown by balance.

TC tools can be made from better materials, giving built-in efficiency.
Many have built-in unbreaking as well.

While you cannot toss them at enchanting tables, you can craft (guaranteed) things like silk touch, or improved efficiency; you can add fortune, etc.

And things you can't get in vanilla: Auto smelt.

And then there's self repair (moss), or work-station repair (more materials); no XP cost to make, upgrade, or maintain. The tool never goes poof.

With no downside.

For balance reasons, can the default number of "extra slots" on tools be dropped to either 1 (normal play), or zero (ultra hard mode play); extra slots would come from paper, thaumium, or adding mineral blocks to buy slots.

Simply put: There is no reason to make a vanilla tool at all with this mod installed.
That alone tells me that there is a serious balance problem.

===

Equally, the 2 to 1 bonus of using the smeltery results in no real reason to ever use a vanilla furnace, except to make one. Simply put, that bonus is too high. No, I don't know what to do for balancing that.

===

By page 6, I now understand the point that people are misunderstanding about this. So let me try to be clear here:

1. Vanilla ores are in common supply. TiC adds even more ores. You are horribly over supplied with stuff.

Yet on top of that over supply, TiC adds ore doubling, and reduces the amount of materials needed for the equivalent item. A vanilla pick is 2 sticks and 3 ores; the equivalent TiC item is 2 sticks and 1 ore.

TiC does not need ore doubling.

2. The smeltery is a mechanic that adds tedium more than anything else. It basically acts as a giant "crafting table" made from a material that is a little harder than normal to find.

3. A TiC tool, defaults to 3 "add-on" slots, and can usually have two more; potentially three more. That is too many.

4. A high-end TiC tool is significantly better than anything you can get from vanilla tools except if you have the best possible vanilla enchantment books to use. The TiC tool repairs easier than the vanilla enchanted tool unless you use a questionable mechanic of the anvil that doesn't keep increasing the costs if it is renamed. (I don't know the exact method of replicating this, but apparently others do).

5. My point of this was to try to improve the balance of TiC as compared to vanilla, or in FTB packs like UHS. Not FTB packs like DireWolf.

Balance relies on the player. If you think something is overpowered or unbalanced, then don't do it as much or at all. Everything in Minecraft is unbalanced if it's abused. That's the beauty of a sandbox game. It's up to the user to choose what he/she does or doesn't do.

 

[SonOfABirch]

Please be serious.

I could ask you the same damn thing...

But it's a mechanic that does not fit vanilla.

Paraphrasing because your argument is pretty much entirely hinged on this one single solitary stupid point.

You are arguing in the FTB forum. You know what FTB is NOT? FTB is NOT VANILLA. FTB is a modpack. Therefore, take your assinine argument elsewhere because it makes no sense within a modded minecraft, specifically FTB (but other modpacks most certainly can be included in this list) experience.

In the actual thread on suggestions for TiC, mDiyo has said that he regards vanilla compatibility, not modpack compatibility, as the key point (See the very first post in that suggestion thread). With regards to vanilla compatibility, TiC tools overpower the equivalent vanilla tool.

- The mod is designed as an extension of vanilla and custom maps.

An extension of vanilla... to me, using the context of the mod and the knowledge that I have of the mod...
Vanilla has tools.. vanilla tools kinda suck, my mod will take that vanilla idea, of having tools, and extend it so that it's fun and interesting!
Nowhere does he mention that he is balancing for vanilla.

tl;dr this thread is ridiculous and your argument is ridiculous and misplaced

 

[PierceSG]

You want to argue about TiCo being overpowered vs vanilla? Go to the unofficial official MineCraft forums. This is a modpack forum, you are tryingto argue against the wrong crowd.

Plus, mDiyo got a separate thread for suggestion which he/she stated that he/she will not read. That tells you something I like how mDiyo deals with "opinions".

 

[Hydra]

You want to argue about TiCo being overpowered vs vanilla? Go to the unofficial official MineCraft forums.

He did. He got ignored by a TiCo dev.

 

[Symmetryc]

In mDiyo's stream he says that his mods are overpowered compared to Vanilla, but in the grand scheme of things it doesn't matter. I don't know which one, but I think it was the last one in which he was talking about how DartCraft was overpowered (which he does every other episode or so lol).

 

[trev1234]

Yeah. I get it. You have an opinion, and you disagree with his opinion. I don't see how that makes him into an imposer.

Do you know what the "H" in "IMHO" stands for? Let's just say it's not "He disagrees with me therefore he's wrong".

IMHO is In My Honest Opinion

 

[Hydra]

IMHO is In My Honest Opinion

Humble actually.

 

[Symmetryc]

Humble actually.

It could mean either, I usually see people use honest though.

 

[keybounce]

Actually, this is the first time I've seen "honest" instead of "humble".

In mDiyo's stream he says that his mods are overpowered compared to Vanilla

Ok, so he knows, and doesn't care. That's all the answer I need then. Thank you.

 

[Hydra]

It could mean either, I usually see people use honest though.

You younglings might use it that way but it orignally, back in the BBS/Usenet days, it was "Humble", also in the form of IMNSHO, "In my not-so-humble opinion".

 

[draeath]

Ok, so he knows, and doesn't care. That's all the answer I need then. Thank you.

It only took 9 pages to get there...

 

[Symmetryc]

You younglings might use it that way but it orignally, back in the BBS/Usenet days, it was "Humble", also in the form of IMNSHO, "In my not-so-humble opinion".

What? Since when does me seeing something more often than seeing something else make you assume that I'm young?