TiCon2 Bows and Xbows: the new deal

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ShneekeyTheLost

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Dec 8, 2012
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Right, we all remember what Tinker's Construct bows and crossbows were like in 1.7.10. Particularly with... certain addon mods to add additional materials to the mix. At the moment, this is no longer the case.

Keep in mind, I'm almost certain we're going to see some... adjustment, let's say, to the numbers, but here's how they look as they first come out.

There are some changes to the mechanics and how numbers are figured, these are going to probably remain consistent, so let's talk about them.

First off, the crossbow now no longer automatically loads after firing. You have to click and hold until it is done reloading to load the bolt after every shot. This is a significant change in 1.10.2, and really limits the usefulness of the crossbow versus the longbow. Mind you, I think this is a bit of balance that needed to happen, but here we are.

Second off, crossbows seem to have a very sharply limited range before they start doing significantly less damage. Mind you, this is initial testing based on the initial release, these numbers may well change, however it appears as though the base range increment is a mere 10 squares, then modified by the Range Modifier as applied by the materials you use to construct the crossbow. This makes it significantly less powerful than its 1.7.10 counterpart, and frequently less powerful than a Longbow would be at any sort of realistic range.

Third off, it seems that for both bows and crossbows, the parts that give the majority of the utility of the weapon is the bow limb. Both bows and crossbows now use the same bow limb. The crossbow uses a tough binding, tough tool rod, binding, and bowstring. The bow uses two bow limbs, a plate, and a bowstring. On a crossbow, however, the binding and rod only seem to add material modifiers and modify durability. They have no effect on the firing states (rate of fire or damage output), unless the material modifier would in some way affect this (Cobalt's Momentum gives a 10% reduction to draw speed).

At the moment, all four bowstring types I had available in my pack (string, slimevine, vine, and hemp twine, have a modifier of 1.0. This may be subject to change later.

Some test examples:

Crossbow: Paper binding, Cobalt tool rod, Steel bow limb, bowstring.

This is your biggest bang for your buck short ranged weapon, with a range of 20 squares before damage starts getting halved. Initial damage is 14.5 with a bolt fashioned from feather fletching, wood arrow shaft, and steel bolt head. Draw speed is a lethargic 4.65, however. With four modifiers of Redstone, you net a draw speed of 3.32, which is still pretty bad.

Crossbow: Paper binding, Cobalt tool rod, Electrum bow limb, bowstring

This is a somewhat more rapid firing crossbow, but it has somewhat less damage and range. Base draw speed is 1.24, with a range of 10 squares before damage drops off. Damage starts off at around 10 damage using the same bolt as before. With four modifiers of Redstone, this brings the draw speed down to 0.89.

Bow: Steel Bow Limb, Electrum Bow Limb, Cobalt Plate, bowstring.

I've found this to be a solid all-round bow. Draw speed is 1.44, which drops down to 1.1 with three modifiers of Redstone. With arrows crafted with steel heads (fletching and shaft do not affect damage at this time) this bow deals a consistent 10 damage. Unsure what the range increment is, it exceeds the draw distance for the test dummy I used in these tests.

Swapping out the Electrum limb for another steel one brings the draw speed all the way up to 3.41 for a normal bow or 2.62 for the fully redstoned one. Damage only goes up to 12 in this case.

Two Electrum limbs gives a draw speed of 0.91 or 0.7 with full redstone for a damage of 9.

So, how does Sharpness affect ammo? I'm glad you asked.

With three modifiers of quartz, the electrum crossbow goes up to around 13 damage a shot and the steel crossbow goes up to 17.

The steel bow goes up to 15 damage, the hybrid bow up to around 13-14 damage, and the electrum bow to 12 damage.

The steel arrow and bolt heads DO have the bleeding effect applied on target.

With Manyullyn arrowheads and full quartz, the hybrid bow does 21 damage, the steel bow does 23, and the electrum bow does 19.

With manyullyn bolts and full quartz, the Steel crossbow does 18 damage whereas the Electrum one only does 14.

Personally, I am finding the hybrid bow with many arrowhead and full quartz to be my optimal setup. It does enough damage to one-shot just about anything I run across, it has a longer range than the crossbows and it does more damage as well, with a decent draw speed.

Now then, to conclude, remember that these are initial numbers that are almost certain to change over time, so there's no telling where the balance point might end up. However, these are the numbers as they currently rest.
 

joshwoo70

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i ssugest organising and labeling which is which. and for players what should they choose...

sent from a phone using tapatalk.
 

Zarkov

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10-20 squares (meters) range before significant damage drop off? I got a flashback to when I tried the Immersive Engineering rail gun when I read that (i.e. the equivalent of writing "gun" in children's writing on a piece of wood and saying "pew pew").

:)
 

ShneekeyTheLost

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10-20 squares (meters) range before significant damage drop off? I got a flashback to when I tried the Immersive Engineering rail gun when I read that (i.e. the equivalent of writing "gun" in children's writing on a piece of wood and saying "pew pew").

:)
Mind you, this may be subject to change, and is applicable only to the crossbow. But yes, that is what my testing bore out. At 20 squares, steel crossbow did 14 damage. At 21 squares, it did 7.

Also, stated numbers are against unarmored target. Will post armored numbers later.
 

RenzosNips

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A huge range nerf and the improved draw mechanic? On top of shifting from modifier focus to material focus? I agree crossbows overshadowed everything in 1.7, but that's a very heavy handed change. Those numbers will definitely need to change, but... yikes.
 

KingTriaxx

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Crossbows were definitely too strong, but I think they might have edged too far in the other direction. Of course that's nothing a bit of fine tuning can't take care of. Of course if like a real bow it's got superior penetration against armored enemies, that's something else.
 

Scottly318

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I think the trade off between long bows and crossbows is accuracy vs damage. It seems the boni is forcing players to think about how/where you use your tools. I like that concept. Makes me think about what I'm trying to accomplish with my tools
 

ShneekeyTheLost

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Here's some of the top candidates for bow limbs and their stats. I'm only listing the few worth bothering with.

  • Draw here refers to the draw speed multiplier. You multiply this number by the base draw speed for the weapon in question to get your final draw speed.
  • Range is your range increment multiplier. Multiply your base range increment by this number to determine maximum range for full damage
  • Damage here refers to bonus damage. Unsure how this calculates into your final damage, as there are several variables to solve for (arrow head material, for example), but the more of this, the more damage you can expect your arrows/bolts to deal overall.

Treated Wood
Draw: 1
Range: 1.12
Damage: 0

Ecological trait makes this bow self-repair over time. Early-game material for at least some kind of ranged weapon.

Magma Slime

Draw: 0.91
Range: 1.05
Damage: 1

Best of the slime-based materials. At least has a damage bonus, and faster than wood, with far higher durability. Flammable property does NOT affect mobs shot by arrows.

Electrum
Draw: 0.67
Range: 1
Damage: 4

Highest quality 'fast' material. If you want a rapid-firing bow, it is likely going to have this incorporated. Charging quality is annoying.

Iron
Draw: 2.0
Range: 1.5
Damage: 7

Early access high damage material, but slow rate of fire.

Bronze
Draw: 1.81
Range: 1.5
Damage: 6

Alternative to Iron at around the same entry level. Slightly faster, slightly less damage bonus, more durability and the Dense property is useful.

Steel
Draw: 2.5
Range: 2.0
Damage: 9

Highest damage bonus of any material as of this document, also slowest practical material (not including garbage like stone or flint).

Cobalt and Manyullyn both have either the same or worse damage bonus than Electrum, and have far longer delay multipliers. Paper has a -2 penalty to damage.
 
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ShneekeyTheLost

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Do sharpening kits work on arrows? So you could say add Magma slime to the arrows/bolts?
Let's find out...

Nope. The only thing sharpening kits do is improve mining speed. It neither changes damage nor material modifier, so it is completely worthless for arrows.

Having said that, magma slime's attack is only one less than Many, and it does set mobs on fire, so it is certainly a viable arrowhead material. Unfortunately, it is not available as a crossbow bolt head material.
 

ShneekeyTheLost

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Arrow and bolt head materials:

Again, subject to change, but here's the top tips for your flying projectiles.

Arrows:

Magma Slime: With a base attack of 7, it actually out-performs steel heads with pure damage output. Bonus damage against things on fire, and will set mobs who aren't dead on fire.
Steel: Base attack of 6, magma slime is actually superior. Bleeding effect does kick in, however.
Prismarine: 6 damage plus the Jagged property makes for a very nasty arrow head if you can obtain this material.
Manyullyn: Attack of 8.72, plus Insatiable.

That's the top four, here's the others:

Cactus: better than stone or flint at an attack of 3.4, decent early-game head
Obsidian: damage 4.2 is pretty solid, and will tend to last longer due to Duritae
Iron: 4 damage, by way of comparison
Pig Iron: 4.5 damage plus Baconlicious
Knightslime: 5.1 damage
Silver: 5 damage, plus the Holy effect kicks in.

Now for the crossbow bolts:

Manyullyn: 9.72 plus insatiable
Steel: 7 plus bleeding
Obsidian: 5.2
Iron: 5
Pig Iron: 5.5
Silver 6 plus Holy

So, Silver, Steel, and Many seem to be the top three for bolts. Unfortunately, due to how bolts are constructed, magma slime and prismarine are not available as bolt heads.
 

KingTriaxx

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Many is probably the top of the line for the pure damage. Silver is fantastic, as well given the huge quantity of undead you tend to fight. Bleed sounds good, but damage over time never really thrills me.
 

ShneekeyTheLost

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Many is probably the top of the line for the pure damage. Silver is fantastic, as well given the huge quantity of undead you tend to fight. Bleed sounds good, but damage over time never really thrills me.
Steel is second highest damage for a crossbow bolt, and far easier to obtain. Granted, it's only third or fourth best for arrow head, but it's easier to mass produce than the other options at that level for purposes of repairing. Unless somehow you manage to get magma slime on farm, in which case do that for arrowheads.

Many is, indeed, the number one damage dealer, however it's difficult enough to come by that repairs are going to be expensive and the damage boost is minimal.
 

Hambeau

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I think the trade off between long bows and crossbows is accuracy vs damage. It seems the boni is forcing players to think about how/where you use your tools. I like that concept. Makes me think about what I'm trying to accomplish with my tools
Don't forget shot timing... IRL a decent, powerful crossbow takes time to load... many have a "Come-along" type pulley and ratchet device for that action. Any bow (that you are strong enough to draw, of course) can be fired at least 4 times in the time it takes to reset a crossbow...
 

Hambeau

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That's the benifit of the short bow. It's got a quicker draw than either long bow or the crossbow
Some of the things they were doing with TiCo bows in 1.7.10 were putting me off ranged weaponry in MC entirely, they were so unrealistic :D
 

KingTriaxx

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Such as the full-auto crossbow?

Seriously though, I never really used the Crossbow and with the changes, it'll be like I use them in Mount and Blade, where I fire a shot, and then swap to another weapon.
 

MacAisling

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Let's find out...

Nope. The only thing sharpening kits do is improve mining speed. It neither changes damage nor material modifier, so it is completely worthless for arrows.

Having said that, magma slime's attack is only one less than Many, and it does set mobs on fire, so it is certainly a viable arrowhead material. Unfortunately, it is not available as a crossbow bolt head material.
The book says sharpening kits can now be used to repair tools in the normal crafting grids. Steel crossbow with many bolts is one-shotting all the regular mobs without adding quartz, leaving me free to add repair or other effects to the bolts, but even with the addon giving me the extra 3 modifiers back, I don't think I'll be able to get the reload speed fast enough.