The future of FTB Modpacks pt 2
- Thread starter slowpoke
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You might be surprised what people will decide is "destructive or compatibility breaking". After all, just changing the recipe for an existing item will break compatibility with any auto-crafting or machine processing setups that rely on the old recipe. No matter how much the recipe change makes sense or is a good idea for balance reasons, there will always be some people that get annoyed by it. And yet this is a perfectly reasonable thing for a mod author to do.
It's really hard to draw lines.
It's taken me a couple of days to catch up on this and all the other related threads, so forgive me if I generalise my replies to cover a wide range of posts.
1. Ethics are relative - ethics that can't change as the situation (society, technology, crowd dynamics, etc.) changes are called "morals", and cause all kinds of problems, see any major religion for a surplus of examples.
2. I mostly agree with Slowpoke's measured stance on this. Serve the users, and let them decide. If the users decide to shun GT, then no-one will use Unhinged, and FTB can leave any mods out of future packs due to the players simply not wanting them for whatever reason, ethical or otherwise.
3. I disagree with some aspects of the new forum policy, as past behaviour is an indication of future behaviour, but I will abide by it. The Pumpkin of Shame is current behaviour though (and thus is fair game for discussion), and it's a contravention of the forum's new "forgive and forget past behaviour" policy, so presumably Greg is not welcome on these forums due to his mod contravening forum policy. I know, the forum policy only applies to forum posts and not to mod behaviour, but it is an odd dichotomy and requires a modicum of cognitive dissonance (which isn't necessarily a bad thing).
4. I believe that I have the right, both legally and ethically, to control what software runs on my computer, and to analyse and/or modify that software in any way I see fit as long as I do not distribute anything that I don't have the right to.
1. Ethics are relative - ethics that can't change as the situation (society, technology, crowd dynamics, etc.) changes are called "morals", and cause all kinds of problems, see any major religion for a surplus of examples.
2. I mostly agree with Slowpoke's measured stance on this. Serve the users, and let them decide. If the users decide to shun GT, then no-one will use Unhinged, and FTB can leave any mods out of future packs due to the players simply not wanting them for whatever reason, ethical or otherwise.
3. I disagree with some aspects of the new forum policy, as past behaviour is an indication of future behaviour, but I will abide by it. The Pumpkin of Shame is current behaviour though (and thus is fair game for discussion), and it's a contravention of the forum's new "forgive and forget past behaviour" policy, so presumably Greg is not welcome on these forums due to his mod contravening forum policy. I know, the forum policy only applies to forum posts and not to mod behaviour, but it is an odd dichotomy and requires a modicum of cognitive dissonance (which isn't necessarily a bad thing).
4. I believe that I have the right, both legally and ethically, to control what software runs on my computer, and to analyse and/or modify that software in any way I see fit as long as I do not distribute anything that I don't have the right to.
I am a little late to the conversation, but I do have a few observations that I wish to share.
To all the people saying "Greg is being rewarded with his own modpack", you could just as easily say that Greg is being exiled into his own getto of a modpack. As Greg has a total conversion vision for his mod, it makes sense to have a modpack that aligns with that vision rather than treating it just another mod to be tossed randomly into modpacks.
To everyone worrying about Greg giving FTB a bad name by throwing another hissy fit. If Greg can't get along with the mods he personally picks, that would be proof positive that GT is unusuable by anybody in any modpack. Otherwise it is he safest place to toss GT. See my next point.
To the suggestion that GT be dropped from all future modpacks. Yes, I suggested this myself, but Slow does have the best solution here. Best even for those who would like everyone to stop playing GT and leave Greg all alone in his own sandbox. Lets consider what would happen if GT was eliminated from all future modpacks. This will be the best case scenario, where Greg doesn't revoke GT from the older modpacks in retaliation. FTB users would fall into 3 camps:
1. Die hard GT fans that agree with Greg's vision. They would leave FTB for their own "modpack". Nobody else may be sorry to see them go, so I consider that no better or worse than having Unhinged in FTB
2. People who do not wish to use GT. No change there if Unhinged exists or not.
3. Casual GT fans. See everyone who has posted here saying "I am gonna install GT in Unleashed and set everything to easy mode". These are the people who like the GT toys, but not Greg's vision. Without a GT pack, the only response really is "Ok, here is how to do that" (ftb launcher does make the install easy, if not the config), or "Don't do that, we hate Greg". Second response is not really something we want to encourage in the forums, and the first pretty much returns things to full support for gregtech. Or the forum mods could censor all mention of Gregtech which would be draconian and make Greg look like a poor oppressed mod developer being bullied by the evil FTB team. Rather with Unhinged, we can point them to that as "The full GregTech vision". If they want just the toys, they can install it into Unleashed themselves, and see first hand how supportive Greg is for users who want the toys, but not the vision.
The route Slow has chosen is the high road, and makes it clear how Greg feels about how his mod is used. People can decide on their own if they agree with Greg or not.
One other note, I had pondered if there should be a disclaimer for "Add GT to the other modpacks at your risk only", but this would be a bad idea. An official FTB statement like that would mean one of two things: 1) the staff don't believe Greg when he says he won't misbehave again, but aren't going to enforce it. Or 2) crashing on startup does not actually violate the rules, and is thus ok. It should already be policy that there is no official support for adding mods to the modpacks, that should be good enough to cover the GT case.
To all the people saying "Greg is being rewarded with his own modpack", you could just as easily say that Greg is being exiled into his own getto of a modpack. As Greg has a total conversion vision for his mod, it makes sense to have a modpack that aligns with that vision rather than treating it just another mod to be tossed randomly into modpacks.
To everyone worrying about Greg giving FTB a bad name by throwing another hissy fit. If Greg can't get along with the mods he personally picks, that would be proof positive that GT is unusuable by anybody in any modpack. Otherwise it is he safest place to toss GT. See my next point.
To the suggestion that GT be dropped from all future modpacks. Yes, I suggested this myself, but Slow does have the best solution here. Best even for those who would like everyone to stop playing GT and leave Greg all alone in his own sandbox. Lets consider what would happen if GT was eliminated from all future modpacks. This will be the best case scenario, where Greg doesn't revoke GT from the older modpacks in retaliation. FTB users would fall into 3 camps:
1. Die hard GT fans that agree with Greg's vision. They would leave FTB for their own "modpack". Nobody else may be sorry to see them go, so I consider that no better or worse than having Unhinged in FTB
2. People who do not wish to use GT. No change there if Unhinged exists or not.
3. Casual GT fans. See everyone who has posted here saying "I am gonna install GT in Unleashed and set everything to easy mode". These are the people who like the GT toys, but not Greg's vision. Without a GT pack, the only response really is "Ok, here is how to do that" (ftb launcher does make the install easy, if not the config), or "Don't do that, we hate Greg". Second response is not really something we want to encourage in the forums, and the first pretty much returns things to full support for gregtech. Or the forum mods could censor all mention of Gregtech which would be draconian and make Greg look like a poor oppressed mod developer being bullied by the evil FTB team. Rather with Unhinged, we can point them to that as "The full GregTech vision". If they want just the toys, they can install it into Unleashed themselves, and see first hand how supportive Greg is for users who want the toys, but not the vision.
The route Slow has chosen is the high road, and makes it clear how Greg feels about how his mod is used. People can decide on their own if they agree with Greg or not.
One other note, I had pondered if there should be a disclaimer for "Add GT to the other modpacks at your risk only", but this would be a bad idea. An official FTB statement like that would mean one of two things: 1) the staff don't believe Greg when he says he won't misbehave again, but aren't going to enforce it. Or 2) crashing on startup does not actually violate the rules, and is thus ok. It should already be policy that there is no official support for adding mods to the modpacks, that should be good enough to cover the GT case.
I have to tell you that this is not true. There are many examples where installing some software is not allowed. Notice the difference between allowed and preventing it. Essentially by agreeing the windows licence (and most other system licences) for example you agree that you won't install any software which will harm other peoples computers. Now ofc this is very hard to enforce but still legally you do not have the right to install it. Another example would be (again windows) the the KCMS (kernel mode code signing) for the 64 bit version of Windows 7 which actively prevents you from loading any unsigned drive at boot time (you can install it but it will not work).
If you read the tos or license before just clicking you will see that a lot of rights are held by the software copy right owner & that in most cases your given limited rights to use the software you have paid for, same goes for addware programs, take a look at googles tos see what you have agreed too & allow them to do with the data they farm from there customer base, its not just google near all are the same as regards data farming, & simply by clicking a single button or ticking a box you are given full & in most cases unrestricted access to this data & or cookies.
A little off topic but pertains to it in a small way regarding ethics, ethic are a mine field & do not cross international borders too well, whats lawful/ethical here may not be there, I tend to use the word morally as this is a little more universal.
A little off topic but pertains to it in a small way regarding ethics, ethic are a mine field & do not cross international borders too well, whats lawful/ethical here may not be there, I tend to use the word morally as this is a little more universal.
How is Windows remotely related?
Windows = Forge, and Forge does not stop you installing certain mods.
It's more like if Firefox refused to run if
It is relevant because of this:
I simply pointed out that there are things which while you can do them are still not allowed even on your own computer.
I dont usually add anything to these type of threads as I dont really "do" internet drama but I will just say this:
Grow up, it s a game, if I want to use your mod with something else I will, if you stop me doing that then I dont want to use your mod anymore. There. Everyones happy.
Slowpoke do what youre doing, let these developers have their own little quarrels if users get upset because a mod has been removed from a pack, push them at the developers mod page. Just stay out of internet drama, the majority of FTB users dont actually care about any of this they just want to play their game, if you do get involved then youre picking a side and that splits your community, it isnt weak, its common sense.
And players, if a mod author is upsetting you dont use their mod, they wont get downloads, their mod will die and someone a bit more decent will make something similar im sure.
Grow up, it s a game, if I want to use your mod with something else I will, if you stop me doing that then I dont want to use your mod anymore. There. Everyones happy.
Slowpoke do what youre doing, let these developers have their own little quarrels if users get upset because a mod has been removed from a pack, push them at the developers mod page. Just stay out of internet drama, the majority of FTB users dont actually care about any of this they just want to play their game, if you do get involved then youre picking a side and that splits your community, it isnt weak, its common sense.
And players, if a mod author is upsetting you dont use their mod, they wont get downloads, their mod will die and someone a bit more decent will make something similar im sure.
The basic premise of you comment lots of use could agree with but the inflammatory tone I beleave we left behind a week ago, awe my hero, pity most of us are not as sensible
, when confronted with polite advice.Apologies want supposed to be inflammatory, i just use words like douche all the time so forget when im speaking on the internet it can sound that way. Tidied it up a little hopefully doesnt sound so...you know...now.
What if the mod is really, really good?
What if the mod was RP2?
What if the mod was Thermal Expansion? (Not saying King_Lemming is a dick, it's hypothetical)
Imo depends on the person, I for one don't hold any mod in the "can't live without" category. It makes you look at mods you wouldn't normally which for me extends minecrafts lifespan and playability. And using RP2 as an example is probably a little silly here as it actually proves my point exactly. Mod has not really kept anybody in the loop on progress so people have made alternatives, some even better then the original.
DRM in any form whether it be a AAA game or minecraft or a simple piece of music is malicious code in my opinion. One of the main reasons I bought minecraft was because of their lack of DRM. (you may argue that you have to log in but you can play without logging in.) But now to see this cropping up in the community. I feel that Notch would be ashamed to see this happening in this community, He wanted a community that worked together albeit it took him a while to come around to the idea of modding his game. I love mods and it truly makes me sad to see this happening. Why can't we all just get along.
Well I'm saying that Slow should have no tolerance to DRM for mods he makes a specific statement in the proposal about DRM for legitimate reasons. I personally don't think there are legitimate reasons especially in a mod. I don't want to sound like I'm making light of what modders do you guys do amazing things you in particular have some pretty great mods I love Liquid XP. But I feel that our community shouldn't be having the useless squabbles over 2 planks or 4 planks, or whether one mod should be able to work with another. Which if I can't use the mod I want with another mod then I consider that DRM they are restricting my ability to use their mod. I do not mean anything about DRM on minecraft but DRM on specific mods. which I believe is what you thought I was speaking of sorry if I was vague or misleading in my statement.
BTW I know this sounds weird but everytime a modder responds to something I post it almost makes me fangirl. I'm a guy just FYI. You guys are to my mind what celebrities are to other peoples minds. Keep up the good work.
No.
Slowpoke is not the moral police. Mod authors can include DRM if they want. As long as it doesn't impact Slow's ability to produce a mod pack, it isn't his concern.
If you don't like DRM, don't use any mod which contains it. It's really that simple.
Interesting that these mods exist for the very reason that Minecraft contains no real development-restrictive DRM.
Why is it that mod authors should be allowed to take advantage of such a cracked-open system, and yet also apply new restrictions to their own derivative works on a whim?
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