Thaumcraft 4 research not completing

[Loufmier]

The point of randomising research is intended because if you haven't learned the fundamentals of freakin' dirt, how are you expected to know an infernal furnace exists and how to research it? How is this not obvious.

random research is only interesting once. with TC3 it was still ok few times more, but with TC4... um... well... you know...

 

[Hyperme]

The point of randomising research is intended because if you haven't learned the fundamentals of freakin' dirt, how are you expected to know an infernal furnace exists and how to research it? How is this not obvious.

The problem with impossible research is that at no point are you told that research can be impossible. It's not a stretch to assume, given the 'guess the elements' nature of research that the puzzles presented will be actually possible. It would be fairly simple to ensure research is solvable, but the current system values random guessing as much as the previous one.

Really, the fact you defend TC4's system so much, yet even you still think it needs a cheat sheet speaks volumes about the system's quality.

All I'm saying is if Azanor insists on trying to please everyone with this research, he had better please everyone or I'm gonna bitch and moan like a child until he changes it because obviously that's how this community works.

actually that's spot on how things work here, providing you whine about things being OP. actually criticism of game design, however, should clearly be banned.

 

[Iskandar]

My problems isn't with the overall research scheme, I like the thought and care you have to put into it. My problems is with some of the details. The reliance on ink, for instance, is just plain annoying. You can get into a rhythm while researching, and having to stop every ten minutes or so for more ink just ruins the flow. Also, combining aspects on the research table could be easier. Having to exit out of the table to look up what makes up an aspect when I need to make more is just annoying, and seems like an oversight. The recipes for known aspects should be integrated into the research table in some way.

Edit: As a note, if you are struggling with the research, a good tip is to research Cognito straight off. You are guaranteed to get the research expertise, research mastery, and deconstruction table. The first two make research much, much easier, the last puts research into easy mode thanks to unlimited primals. Dump a stack of crafting tables into the deconstruction table, and there you go. From those primals you can create any aspect you are short on, just takes a bit of patience.

 

[Succubism]

random research is only interesting once. with TC3 it was still ok few times more, but with TC4... um... well... you know...

No. I don't know. Please inform me.

 

[Succubism]

Let me give y'all a rundown on how this is the very essence of the phrase "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."

The current system for research actually feels like research, from the failures, t the execution to the discovery. It takes a concept that was once just a resource dump and made it cool. Made it different. I've never had a problem with point sending because I take Interest in the mod itself rather than just seeing it as an asset to a modpack. It's existence alone is almost enough to build a game off, especially with the expansions people are making for it I droves because they too give a shit about the essence of the mod and now that essence, because some choice spoiled, modpack toting knuckle draggers can't be arsed to think outside of the automation box, this mod is going to turn from a mod of it's own narrative and essence into another TE clone with the word Magic slapped on the box.

I don't care if you don't like TC4. But get the fuck off it if you don't like it because frankly you're just ruining it for everyone who does like it and if this were TE or TiC or whatever everyone on the planet's playing that people are ruining, change just wouldn't freakin' happen. You assholes wouldn't allow it.

 

[MigukNamja]

I, too, like TC4 the way it is. Automation is a means to an end, it's not the end and it's certainly not the Holy Grail.

As for research, sure there might be some minor bugs, but once you get beyond the hurdle of throwing away a research 1 time, it's not a big deal. It's the price of doing business and sometimes, there are dead-ends. Don't give up - try again.

 

[Succubism]

Early Game research is easy as balls to do. It takes care and strategy and eventually you can do them with as minimal points as possible. If you do things right, you'll have more than enough points to get you to end-game.

I did. From my first ever real playthrough of TC4 to my latest, because I care enough about the mod to put some actual thought into it.

 

[Nooska]

Not that far into TC4 yet, there are a few things I'm having issues with - mainly getting auram aspect research points (and remembering to scan stuff, but.. thats my own darned fault).

I would prefer if there was a head up in teh research entry in the thaumonomicon about some research being uncompletable (so you don't waste a lot of points trying to find what you "missed" to complete the research. after that, I would prefer a way to make research faster (thats a little cheaty, but not "here is everything") both for the "easymode" players, but just as much, for the n'th repetition of the same thing (I'm not there yet, bbut I've heard it a few times, so I guess I'll get there myself as well).

@Succubism I think you hit the nail on the head with why some (of us) have some issues with the research point aquisition; "If you do things right" - not playing a lot of MC/TC4, you tend to NOT do things right in the beginning, and it is quite possible to screw yourself over and make it exceptionally hard... - it should be forgiving towards having done things wrong, so you don't have to wait for endless amounts of time for the deconstruction table (or what it is called, I can't remember right now) - especially in SSP it is punishing to catch up after making several mistakes in the beginning.

 

[MigukNamja]

I got most of my critical points from the "free when at 0" points on the Research Table. My no-thinking-required combos are:

Aqua + Terra = Victus
Aer + Ordo = Motus

I put my Research Table in a well-traveled area in my base and try to stop by every 60 seconds or so to burn (and cause re-gen of) the free Aqua, Terra, Aer, and Ordo. I have those crystal clusters at/near my research table. If I need to burn Pertido, I'll do:

Perdito + Victus = Mortuus

There are soooo many commonly-used aspects built using Victus and Motus, it's not funny. As for Aurum, I had to combine aspects for most of my Aurum. Almost all other aspects I get from scanning or combining primals, Victus, Motus, and Mortuus.

As for the Decon table, use mossy cobblestone. If using TE3, it's super-cheap : feed Igneous Extruder cobblestone directly into Fluid Transposer (FT). The FT doesn't take that much RF to make mossy cobblestone.

 

[snooder]

Let me give y'all a rundown on how this is the very essence of the phrase "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."

The current system for research actually feels like research, from the failures, t the execution to the discovery. It takes a concept that was once just a resource dump and made it cool. Made it different. I've never had a problem with point sending because I take Interest in the mod itself rather than just seeing it as an asset to a modpack. It's existence alone is almost enough to build a game off, especially with the expansions people are making for it I droves because they too give a shit about the essence of the mod and now that essence, because some choice spoiled, modpack toting knuckle draggers can't be arsed to think outside of the automation box, this mod is going to turn from a mod of it's own narrative and essence into another TE clone with the word Magic slapped on the box.

I don't care if you don't like TC4. But get the fuck off it if you don't like it because frankly you're just ruining it for everyone who does like it and if this were TE or TiC or whatever everyone on the planet's playing that people are ruining, change just wouldn't freakin' happen. You assholes wouldn't allow it.

The thing is, most of us complaining are complaining precisely because we WANT to like it. We liked it before, and assumed that we would continue to so. But the most recent changes are, in many ways, sapping the fun out of critical parts of the mod that makes the later stuff (which is still fun in it's own right) no longer worth bothering with. And that's a shame. I got pretty into Thaumcraft 3 and I loved sitting out on the porch of my house and watching the little golems trek back and forth the fields just picking away. I liked building massive nodes and fighting wisps. I made tons of warded stone and glass and started planning a warded wall to keep out intruders. Right now, with the way the research system in Thaumcraft 4 is, I'm never going to do any of that, because messing around with the research system is just too aggravating and tedious for the fun stuff later on to make up for it.

And no, the current system doesn't feel like research. Or at least not like the fun, interesting sort of research that a good game design should try to emulate. I actually enjoy doing research. I like tracking down the links and connections that make patterns. Good, fun research ends up like following a trail of crumbs from a some minor initial discoveries to a triumphant epiphany at the end. And no, the Thaumcraft 4 research system is nothing like that. There's literally no way to predict what aspects can be scanned from various items, until you've already found the aspect, and often it's rather counter intuitive. I was able to scan soul sand before I could scan paper. In fact, I HAD to. How does that make any sense at all? And, since the system is RANDOM, there's no way to focus your activity. You just click around, waste a bunch of time, and hope that you get good luck. Research shouldn't be based on luck. That was mildly annoying in Thaumcraft 3 and was pretty much the ONLY detraction that people had from an otherwise excellent system. The assumption many people had was that Thaumcraft 4 would do away with that weird and annoying random research and have something better. Instead Thaumcraft 4 made it worse by having the research STILL be luck-based, but with even less ability to counter bad luck through brute force.

 

[Tristam Izumi]

-snip-

So you're saying you enjoyed the massive item sink that was TC3 research?

I'm sorry, but no. THAT was the biggest complaint Azanor got about TC3 research, not that it was random. Though it's not random random. That would be if it randomly assigned you any research randomly when you created a new note, with no bearing on what you started the research with.

Anyhow, my real question to you is: what suggestion do you have to improve the current state of TC research? And no, the TC3 item sink is not a valid answer.

 

[Zenthon_127]

-A config option for moving runes and such not taking up points. I could, at least, deal with that.
-A buff to the Deconstruction Table. Seriously.

By the way, if I didn't give a crap about the mod, I wouldn't complain. Fact is I loved TC3, and there's only 2 damned things in TC4 that I don't like and one of them is easily fixable (Taint spread). But SOMEHOW, research is so utterly painful now that I can't stand to use the mod, and I'm not going to go Creative Mode to solve game design.

By the way, I remember the main complaint on TC3 research being that it got boring after 2 worlds or so, back when TC3 was out.

 

[Tristam Izumi]

-A config option for moving runes and such not taking up points. I could deal with that.
-A buff to the Deconstruction Table. Seriously.

Both are good suggestions. Much like we have "normal" and "hard" mode for nodes, we could have the same for research. That way those who like how research is currently can keep it set the way it is, and those complaining about burning up research points too quickly can change it to only take a point to activate the runes then they can be moved freely. It would mean that with that mode the Research Expertise/Mastery researches would be pointless, but still.

And I'll be honest and say that I never saw a point for the Decon Table so I never used it, so making it more useful (like not having to manually unload it, or something) would be nice.

 

[snooder]

So you're saying you enjoyed the massive item sink that was TC3 research?

I wouldn't say I liked it necessarily, but it never really bothered me. And I don't recall reading many complaints about it before TC4 came out either. Most of the complaints and frustrations that I saw people post about was having to throw out research note after research note because they were all giving the same useless research instead of the one that the player actually wanted to focus on. But hey, that's just me. If people really found the item sink in TC3 to be onerous I'm not going to argue with them.

Anyhow, my real question to you is: what suggestion do you have to improve the current state of TC research? And no, the TC3 item sink is not a valid answer.

First, I'd remove the aspect points system. It's ok to have to scan successive items to figure out what the item is made of. It's not ok when you can only do this once and trying to do research eats away at the meager amount of research you gained from scanning that item. I am aware that there are mechanics to aleviate this, but there aren't early enough in the tech tree to be useful to a new player just trying stuff out for the first time. As it is, the system basically encourages players to spend weeks doing nothing but scanning and never touching the research table until they've basically built up a backlog of scanned research. That's not good. Ideally people should be scanning at about the same rate that they do research, and doing research almost from the very first item they make.

Second, less RNG. Impossible research is rage-inducing. Not knowing what research you'll get next is not as bad, but still annoying. Plus, it discourages newer players who don't have access to a cheat sheet to tell them what the probability of picking up the research they actually want is.

Third, plan out the sequence of aspect scanning better. It's unforgivable to make scanning paper dependent on humanus. Common items should be easier to scan than rarer items.

My solution? Keep the rune-linking mini game, but make it less dependent on RNG. Make it so that learning research requires connecting runes in a specific sequence for each research. Put the sequence in the Thaumonicon entry for that research, but only show parts of it until you've researched every item in the tree leading up to it. The idea is that instead of the current system where the first aspect you scan creates a specific research, with this you won't actually be 'locked in' to any research until you finish the sequence. If you run into a block, you can clear the sequence and try again for a different research. This would take a great deal of the frustration out of failed research because you can just go down another path, and it doesn't feel like you've wasted anything.

So the first item you research (like wands or something) will be basically given to you, but still need research as a basic tutorial on how to connect the dots and play the minigame. You will be able to use any aspect that you've previously scanned when playing the mini game, but aspects you don't know will be unusable. Thus, as you progress down the research tree, you will ocassionally run into spots where you can't move on because you are missing an aspect. This will probably be the part that needs the most work, because it will have to planned so that how to get the missing aspect is hinted at somewhere, and players going down the research tree hit these stopping points somewhat evenly, and not clustered all in one spot.

 

[KingTriaxx]

That equal trade research is doable. You're shorting yourself on distance because of the diagonals. Move one of those on the left up to bridge from the runes on top and move the other two up one space each. Research complete.

 

[Loufmier]

No. I don't know. Please inform me.

sure. TC4 research progression have even less re-playability than TC3.

 

[Tristam Izumi]

sure. TC4 research progression have even less re-playability than TC3.

You are entitled to your own opinion, but I respectfully disagree.

 

[Iskandar]

Yeah. It might get to me eventually, but I'm quite enjoying going back through the research tree in my new world now that I know what I'm doing. I kind of struggled the first time through, but now I know most of the tricks, and it really is fun.

 

[Revemohl]

Small reminder that Thaumic Tinkerer adds easy mode research (so easy mode that new researches instantly become discoveries). Not as cheaty as spawning in a cheat sheet since it requires you to find aspects first.

 

[KingTriaxx]

In addition to the crystals for more bonus aspects, surround your table in book cases for lots of aspects.