Tech mods: Why have a power system?

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CreeperShift

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Dec 31, 2014
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Here's my understanding, and I *think* I wholeheartedly agree and came up with this same idea independently:
An RF cable mod, for RF and intended mainly for RF, which adds some difficulty/complexity. Rotarycraft is it's own thing; it is intended to be used in it's own family of mods, not as an RF bridge.
Exactly this.


Or an IC2 classic machine. Or an IC1 machine. Or an old BC pipe. Not exploding was a new idea in terms of major power systems.

What the idea description sounds a lot like is completely overwriting the RF API as soon as Minecraft starts to force every (RF using) machine to work with that mod's way of enforcing voltage and current, which suddenly opens up all sorts of outdated API problems.

It would not be an issue if you do the whole checking on the energy mod side. Machines would have to be specified, but with a config and a public repository, wouldn't exactly be hard to get a base going. Pulverizer needing a minimum of 200 rf/t? Don't supply power at all. suppy 500 rf/tick and it goes boom. Even that would already be an improvement over the regular rf. Power loss in cables, maybe even storage would be another thing easy to add.

@CreeperShift and @Type1Ninja, may I ask how your suggestions would solve the concept of power inflation, or long-term usage? As mentioned in my prior post, it is fairly common for people to create more than enough power for their current tech tier, each tech tier. So, if that is the general use-case for power (basically a gate you have to achieve to reach the next tier), why not just do that? What reason is there for actually transmitting power?

What I propose 'we' (the modding community) consider for 'power' systems is to literally use it as a tier system.
  • Each tier represents technology progression (Tier 1, Tier 2, Tier 3, etc.).
  • A power generator for a given tier will infinitely power all connected machines of the same tier.
    • Alternatively (and probably better), it could maybe only infinitely power all machines of a lower tier, and only one machine of equal tier.
I believe these rules actually will offer a system that reduces inflation (as if you provide higher tier power, it is a higher tier machine). Power systems will not use as much CPU time as connections could be cached and would not need to transfer values along, just check tier level of network. In addition, helps move the focus from the power system itself onto what you do with the power instead, encouraging mod authors to create interesting progression tiers.

To give an interesting example of this in practice you have a windmill, which produces Tier 1 Mechanical Power (T1 MP). You feed that into a generator which takes T1 MP and produces T1 Electrical Power (T1 EP). You make two of these setups and feed a transformer structure which takes two inputs of T1 EP and produces T2 EP, which can be used to run a electrical furnace to smelt. Alternatively, because you've created a T2 EP producer, you can feed its power back into some motors (T1 EP -> T1 MP producers) and power multiple T1 MP machines.

I feel this kind of design keeps the concept of gating machines behind power still. It just accepts the idea that power really is just a structure needed to progress, and therefore can be more optimized to specifically provide those features.

Not really a fan of this. I don't believe power creep or power inflation is a problem in itself. With minecrafts worlds being theoretical infinite, and therefore every resource being theoretical infinite, power creep is going to happen at some point. The issue I see with it is mainly energy storage, energy transfer, generators from different mods not being balanced against each other and machines not being balanced against each other.

There is always going to be a point where you simply have too much power. Your way gave me the impression to just give people "always too much" after building a specific tier.

What you're suggesting doesn't solve the problems I specifically mentioned at all. Given a period of time (generally short.. less than a week), any player on a server will generally be able to produce enough power to run any one of their machines (and in many cases, all of their machines). This means that on servers, at least, power is just a tiering mechanic and the actual value is pointless.

While this solution still has a sense of power inflation (a.k.a. someone can make a higher tier generator than another mod), it is handled differently in that its actually higher tier. This makes balancing such technology mods a whole lot easier as progression tiers for power are simple and easy to work with. Neither of your suggestions seem to solve the power inflation issue as well as mine would.

I'm all for being wrong in this, but I haven't seen anything yet that points to actually transferring energy being beneficial. The challenge of managing a power system is generally either too complex to be fun, or too easy to acquire that the calculations to transfer the energy from one block to another are essentially wasted as my idea would be the same, only less of a CPU hog. Am I missing something?

I would rather balance it out so players will only get the appropriate energy when they require it. Next tier machines not being able to run on lower tier counterparts, so even hogging energy won't do them any good.
 

keybounce

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I'm pretty sure that RoC industrial coils will still explode if you give them too much power.

It's just a lot harder to overcharge them now.

... actually, what happens if you put too much energy through a shaft, or flywheel? :)

---

I like the idea of abstract tiering.
 

Type1Ninja

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Then you end up with a 2 tier RF system of those mods that implement tiers and max input and those that don't. I wonder which one people would end up using... Even if that did work, which it could if people cooperated, there would always be that mod that would have tier 1, MAX_INT input to ignore it. You can't win without defining tiers by input amount, which leads to other issues of where do you define the different tiers, which of course is different for different mods.

If it wasn't in the API, checking for everything that did implement it would limit it to that mod's cables only, which defeats the point of trying entirely as you could just disable every other form of RF transfer and use it's special cables instead, removing the need for anything else to do the checking.
The idea is that people who *want* this can use it. I wouldn't want this to totally replace everything. I want it to be something I can use to both give myself and other likeminded people a slightly bigger, more thought-provoking challenge when building with RF, without sacrificing the incredible versatility of what you can actually do with RF. Also, I want RoC/IC2 purists to stop bashing RF.
 
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Ecu

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Not really a fan of this. I don't believe power creep or power inflation is a problem in itself. With minecrafts worlds being theoretical infinite, and therefore every resource being theoretical infinite, power creep is going to happen at some point. The issue I see with it is mainly energy storage, energy transfer, generators from different mods not being balanced against each other and machines not being balanced against each other.

There is always going to be a point where you simply have too much power. Your way gave me the impression to just give people "always too much" after building a specific tier.

You essentially just showcased exactly why I suggest what I do. Given Minecraft, you'll always have enough power to do what you want once you've built the correct power structure. This means that the energy transfer values are pointless and only serve to restrict the speed in which you get to said point (which still ends up fast, given features like ore doubling, etc.). By using tiers as I suggested, you save server CPU time and create a system which is easier to balance due to technology tiers being clearly definable.

I would rather balance it out so players will only get the appropriate energy when they require it. Next tier machines not being able to run on lower tier counterparts, so even hogging energy won't do them any good.

I'm wondering if you've missed something in my design, as this is exactly what it would do.
 
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CreeperShift

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You essentially just showcased exactly why I suggest what I do. Given Minecraft, you'll always have enough power to do what you want once you've built the correct power structure. This means that the energy transfer values are pointless and only serve to restrict the speed in which you get to said point (which still ends up fast, given features like ore doubling, etc.). By using tiers as I suggested, you save server CPU time and create a system which is easier to balance due to technology tiers being clearly definable.


I'm wondering if you've missed something in my design, as this is exactly what it would do.

I'm sorry, from your post I had the impression you wanted to remove the need to check if there is x requirement and simply make it so a Tier 1 generator, once setup, will power any tier 1 machine forever. Imho, that's not making it better, that's making rf even easier. Correct me if I'm wrong tho.


EDIT: Just re-read your post:

I believe that removing power values and using a system like you described, that simply powers things on a tier based system, is going to make rf even worse than before. My point isn't to make rf more streamlined because it's value is rather questionable right now, it's to make rf more complicated so it becomes something more than just popping down a generator and some wires. I actually have fun designing my power grid. I just wish it was something you actually had to think a little about, instead of just connecting a wire and it's gonna work forever.

What your suggesting means we could easily remove the power system altogether, and simply add some other form of progression like research. I want to make it more complicated. I want to be able to solve challenges with such a more complicated power system and after weeks of playing stand on top of my giant battery bank that has so much power in it that I'm never gonna need it. But for all of that power you had to spend time making it, solving issues, wireing, etc. It's the same with any ressources. At some point, you're going to have too many. I'm not trying to solve that issue as it would require to redesign minecraft completely, and I don't see why we should change power in a way so it does.

Perhaps I'm stupid here, but explain how building more stuff, saves CPU.

As far as I understand it, he removes the need to calculate how much energy is transferred, so no energy calculations at all. It's connected, and the right tier, it has power.
 
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keybounce

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Do not confuse "infinite world" with "infinite resources".

If there was only one person on the earth, that person would see effectively infinite resources -- but would not be able to use them all.

Infinite availability, plus finite harvesting, equals finite resources.
Unless you have either unbounded harvesting ability (automatic harvesting machines) or unlimited time, you will have resource shortages.

Don't forget, even The Doctor had limited resources, and he was willing to eat stars to power some of what he did.

===

Do you expect automatic ore harvesting and processing to be a staple of tech mods? Are there any magic mods that have that as a part of the system, or is that only seen in tech mods?

So far, I've seen it in high-tech tech mods (steves carts, RoC, RF, etc.), but not in low-tech tech mods (Ancient Warfare, a cog-and-gear mod, expanded industry).
 
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CreeperShift

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Was gonna comment on how your infinite thing contradicts itself and is wrong, however not really the point of this thread and pretty off topic so I'll not :)

Instead I will say this:

When playing minecraft, you will never run out of resources to harvest/collect/mine/etc.
 

keybounce

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Sure, you'll always have more stuff to dig out.

But you won't always have all that you want/need right now.

Hence, some mods require lots and lots of resources, or some really rare resources that only generate once ever very few chunks.

Infinite resources in the ground does not mean unlimited availability, if you only have a few hours a week for play.
===

A race that can utilize the power of stars, and travel from star to star, will "never" run out of power. They can still be short of what they need right now.
 
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Type1Ninja

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Sure, you'll always have more stuff to dig out.

But you won't always have all that you want/need right now.

Hence, some mods require lots and lots of resources, or some really rare resources that only generate once ever very few chunks.

Infinite resources in the ground does not mean unlimited availability, if you only have a few hours a week for play.
===

A race that can utilize the power of stars, and travel from star to star, will "never" run out of power. They can still be short of what they need right now.
I like this. It's poetic and explains a lot of why we like MC.

Direct answer to the most direct question of the OP (the title):
We have power systems because they are centralized, which increases efficiency. Imagine having, instead of a "power system," just furnaces. You set up hoppers, and whatever sorting system, and you put coal in each of them. But the issue is that you can't be sure if the amount of power in each machine is more or less even. The most basic system (using "at a crossroads, split in half" logic) would put 64 coal in the first furnace, 32 in the next, then 16, 8, 4, 2, 1, then none in any of the others. Obviously, you can improve this with redstone logic and stuff - but the amount of effort it takes to get even distribution is disproportionately large. Power systems rectify that, allowing us to put power in every machine in the line in a fairly simple fashion. Also, from a mostly lore based standpoint, electricity is more efficient than coal - in can be turned on and off; if I'm smelting, say, 9 items, I'll use one coal's worth of power for the first 8. Without electricity, the last would use ANOTHER coal - with electricity, I use 8 + 1/8 of a coal. The efficiency gain seems minuscule, but it's nice because of large scale projects and OCD (not necessarily in that order :p).

On a slightly unrelated note, I'd like to (for the sake of discussion) define a "magic" mod and a "tech" mod. Theme is too shallow - let's only use theme to define a mod as a last resort.

My personal definition is this:

A tech mod focuses on the centralized power system mentioned above, as well as automation. This would make Buildcraft a tech mod - the focus is on automating the movement of items and fluids, and later tier stuff requires power. Thermal Expansion, Minefactory Reloaded, Mekanism, Rotarycraft, and others (as well as all their addons) fall under this definition.

A magic mod has a more fuzzy definition - the most concrete thing I can find is that they focus on the improvement of the player themselves instead of on improving automated systems. They also don't focus on power systems or automation. Although many, if not most, magic mods do have some form of both, they are often underdeveloped, or have niche uses, and you could play through the early and sometimes mid game just fine without them. These things manifest themselves primarily as wearable or hand-usable tools, weapons, or armor, often manually crafted at intricate multiblock structures. So, Thaumcraft would be a magic mod, as would Ars Magica 2. Blood Magic and Botania both blur the line; they have centralized power systems, but they also focus on manually made tools for the player. Theme-wise, they're magic, so as a last resort I'd call them magic (keep their fuzziness in mind, though).
 

Azzanine

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I don't think there is a mechanical distinction between magic and tech mods that isn't just esthetic and theme. Botania is actually quite a technological mod. The systems you need to set up for good mana gen (especially with the passive nerf) needs to be rather clever and technical, using quite elaborate redstone jiggery pokery to pull off.
Also defining magic mods that boost ones personal ability. Explain mods like Redstone Arsenal, MPS, RF drills and Simply Jetpacks, they are all mods that boost your own ability through gear much in the same manner as magic mods but are all defined as tech mods. Also what so you classify a mod like Advanced Genetics? Genetics may not be about machines but genetics is technology.
Then consider mods like Technomancy that deliberately blur the line between magic and tech as part of their mission.

One does not simply categorize tech and magic.
At least not outside theme.

Along those lines the op's question is a little empty. Why have a power system? Because the modder wants it so, because the player wants it.
If players didn't want it a modder would give them that alternative.
It's like saying why have essentia in Thaumcraft, LP in Blood Magic or mana in Botania. Because the modder thought it was a good idea.

Imagine the scenario I mentioned where you have a mod that has free to run machinee. Now go a step further and add every nifty function from every mod but remove it's arbitrary resource. You'd end up with a messy eclectic mod that looks like open blocks on steroids.
Would it be fun? I'm going to say yes but not for very long.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk
 

Type1Ninja

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I don't think there is a mechanical distinction between magic and tech mods that isn't just esthetic and theme. Botania is actually quite a technological mod. The systems you need to set up for good mana gen (especially with the passive nerf) needs to be rather clever and technical, using quite elaborate redstone jiggery pokery to pull off.
Also defining magic mods that boost ones personal ability. Explain mods like Redstone Arsenal, MPS, RF drills and Simply Jetpacks, they are all mods that boost your own ability through gear much in the same manner as magic mods but are all defined as tech mods. Also what so you classify a mod like Advanced Genetics? Genetics may not be about machines but genetics is technology.
Then consider mods like Technomancy that deliberately blur the line between magic and tech as part of their mission.

One does not simply categorize tech and magic.
At least not outside theme.

Along those lines the op's question is a little empty. Why have a power system? Because the modder wants it so, because the player wants it.
If players didn't want it a modder would give them that alternative.
It's like saying why have essentia in Thaumcraft, LP in Blood Magic or mana in Botania. Because the modder thought it was a good idea.

Imagine the scenario I mentioned where you have a mod that has free to run machinee. Now go a step further and add every nifty function from every mod but remove it's arbitrary resource. You'd end up with a messy eclectic mod that looks like open blocks on steroids.
Would it be fun? I'm going to say yes but not for very long.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk
I would say that Botania is a tech mod then, by my definition given your information (I've never really played with it, unfortunately). Basically, I prefer to define mods by featureset, not theme; it helps for discussion. We could totally talk about Botania here, even though it's theme is not "tech."
I explain Redstone Arsenal, MPS, RF Drills and Simply Jetpacks as tech mods because they are explicitly addons for tech mods, and you most likely will not find them outside of a technology oriented modpack/player's house.

I didn't say that tech and magic were the only categorizations. You insult me by even thinking I could be so rigid. :p I just didn't mention that I think there are other branches of mods - Exploration (Twilight Forest, BoP), Utilities (Extra Utilities, Random Things, Open Blocks), Client Improvement (NEI, Inventory Tweaks), and Misc. (anything else).
 

Baron_Falcon

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But the question to you is, what's the point?
It's all well and good having 15 billion diamonds. But when are you ever going to need that many.
This is something I don't understand about a lot of the community's "I will have a mining machine that is super efficient and runs forever" ideology.

This pretty much sums up the reason I have recently revisited older modpacks. For some reason, they were just more fun in their simplicity. One of my coplayers on a private server is very good at getting the most efficiency out of ore processing, while if I have a surplus of a few hundred, who cares, dump the ore in whatever machine is closest/prettiest/matches the decor best. Makes him crazy. Which then becomes fun. :D
 
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KyunaKyuna

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With the vast range of activities in modded Minecraft and the limited free time I have after work, I want to sample a bit of everything. The RF power system adds some complexity and an additional mechanic to the mod pack, but doesn't take so much time that I am unable to also try out some of the things in the other packs. I understand that some folks want something more hard core or want something more realistic, but I like the "in between" nature of it.

Perhaps in the past (I didn't play then) there were fewer mods, so you spent more time with each one. But the big packs today, such as DireWolf or Infinity have over a hundred mods and one would invest a serious amount of time to explore all of each pack. From my admittedly less experienced point of view, there seems to be a lovely solution if you don't like the RF power system for this or that reason. Set up your own mod pack, just the way you like it, and not use RF. With respect, several posters have mentioned how RF is very popular. That may well be an indication that it is actually pretty damn fine for a good number of us, but that some folks have different tastes. That is what mods are all about, pleasing your tastes, so go for it.
 

malicious_bloke

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Perhaps in the past (I didn't play then) there were fewer mods, so you spent more time with each one. But the big packs today, such as DireWolf or Infinity have over a hundred mods and one would invest a serious amount of time to explore all of each pack.

There were fewer mods, but the main point is there was less commonality between the mods.

Buildcraft used MJ, Industrialcraft used EU, Factorization used banana hammocks* and never the twain shall meet. So you had to use cunning workarounds.

Nowadays, every base mod uses RF except for Reika's mods then IC2 and its' addons, a bunch of mods can accept and transport power from wherever. It just means your packs are a lot more homogenous and integrated. It's a liberal's dream :)

It all started when thermal expansion was released. *grabs popcorn*

*or some other complicated thing I never had the patience to get my head around.