Since when is added complexity and difficulty more fun?

[deadscion]

I see SevTech and All the Mods 3 are the most popular of mod packs lately. When I get a good look at the mods, I see as an example, ore excavation has ore excavation integration which makes a player do a lot of dancing before getting to use even a limited scope of ore excavation. Plus All the mods 3 has a mod which does not let the single player use peaceful mode. Now, when it comes to single player, when I set the cheats option, I expect to do exactly what I please with the world, including peaceful mode just to get a good look around regardless of the dimension. I am seeing more and more of what I call the GregTech mentality.
Added complexity is not always challenging or fun. Added complexity is tedium and frustration when taken a step too far. Especially when a player gets used to one or two simple recipes to craft a machine in one version, changes to 5 or 6 recipes in the next version of a mod or modpack.
All I am saying is, do not lose the fun perspective.
For example: 5 or 6 skeletons ganging up on you is not as much fun as 1 skeleton with skills.
Simple recipes are better when a players has many other goals to accomplish besides the short sighted author who only sees his personal mod as maybe too easy to use.
The GregTech mentality does not work for all players.

 

[Cpt_gloval]

Unfortunately, the line between tedium and entertainingly complex is a very squiggly thing. I enjoyed Sevtech until I got the to point that I needed to start crafting the various Hopper/Woppers and ran until different kinds of wood that are not readily available. Without coordinates or a map of any kind, no village anywhere, I ended up abandoning my game when I went out to find the black/purple biome for wood and the abyssal gems. Couldn't find my way back, spawned in a crappy place to begin with so had to travel quite a ways to find a suitable place to base, and no bed so couldn't just die to get home.

But it was very fun up to that point.

 

[deadscion]

Well, too be fair, SevTech is still WIP. Most young gamers are using portable Android devices. The most of the rest of us, with Desktop computers running the Java version of Minecraft and all of it's wonderful mods, are holding down a job and look for ways to relax after a days' work. The occasional young gamer who still has a Desktop computer has nothing better to do except play games and simple-easy gaming is boring.

 

[MikW]

I see SevTech and All the Mods 3 are the most popular of mod packs lately. When I get a good look at the mods, I see as an example, ore excavation has ore excavation integration which makes a player do a lot of dancing before getting to use even a limited scope of ore excavation. Plus All the mods 3 has a mod which does not let the single player use peaceful mode. Now, when it comes to single player, when I set the cheats option, I expect to do exactly what I please with the world, including peaceful mode just to get a good look around regardless of the dimension. I am seeing more and more of what I call the GregTech mentality.
Added complexity is not always challenging or fun. Added complexity is tedium and frustration when taken a step too far. Especially when a player gets used to one or two simple recipes to craft a machine in one version, changes to 5 or 6 recipes in the next version of a mod or modpack.
All I am saying is, do not lose the fun perspective.
For example: 5 or 6 skeletons ganging up on you is not as much fun as 1 skeleton with skills.
Simple recipes are better when a players has many other goals to accomplish besides the short sighted author who only sees his personal mod as maybe too easy to use.
The GregTech mentality does not work for all players.

I abandoned SevTech because of the bad luck I had with my spawnpoint. I explored to the colder biome direction for like 2 hours without finding a single darklands biome. I mean the progression was fun and unique, but the RNG messed me up, as @Cpt_gloval said. Moved to ATM 3, and honestly I'm having great fun with the plethora of mods. One thing that annoys me is the extremely expensive recipe for the Garden Cloche. Some items have overly expensive recipes. Still fun though otherwise. I don't have any problems with Peaceful disabled, still works when I accidentally fell into a Lost Cities basement and use the split second I have to escape. I don't usually use peaceful mode anyways.

 

[Rixxaw]

So to get off the SevTech bashing and back on Topic.

I think what we all would like is something similar to IE Expert mode.

Take FTB Revelations. Add Ender IO, Thaumcraft, BloodMagic, PlusTic, YoYo's, Betweenlands, Twilight Forest, and then select core mods that need to be put in series so that you can't progress to the next mod without achieving things in the previous mod.

Don't add pointless grind mods that give us nothing in return, and simply stand in our way. There are plenty of mods that you can force progression through which reward the player.

And finally, relax a bit on forcing everyone to do it the same way. There are two approaches that can be taken in this regard. IE Expert mode simply made all useful things harder to get by forcing you to use other mods to get them. This is the way I prefer, and allowed me to try several different ways to play the pack in my 3 pay throughs. Other modpacks have adopted quest books and linear progression that results in everyone basically doing the same thing, and turns the modpack into more of a grind.

 

[Nuclear_Creeper0]

I see SevTech and All the Mods 3 are the most popular of mod packs lately. When I get a good look at the mods, I see as an example, ore excavation has ore excavation integration which makes a player do a lot of dancing before getting to use even a limited scope of ore excavation. Plus All the mods 3 has a mod which does not let the single player use peaceful mode. Now, when it comes to single player, when I set the cheats option, I expect to do exactly what I please with the world, including peaceful mode just to get a good look around regardless of the dimension. I am seeing more and more of what I call the GregTech mentality.
Added complexity is not always challenging or fun. Added complexity is tedium and frustration when taken a step too far. Especially when a player gets used to one or two simple recipes to craft a machine in one version, changes to 5 or 6 recipes in the next version of a mod or modpack.
All I am saying is, do not lose the fun perspective.
For example: 5 or 6 skeletons ganging up on you is not as much fun as 1 skeleton with skills.
Simple recipes are better when a players has many other goals to accomplish besides the short sighted author who only sees his personal mod as maybe too easy to use.
The GregTech mentality does not work for all players.

SevTech: Ages should Imo, be played on a pre-decided seed. With known locations.

 

[Drbretto]

Immersion, time, and sense of challenge.

If the idea is that you're a naked guy stranded on this strange land with nothing and you're out there with nuclear power 3 hours into the game, it's a quick and not necessarily full experience. Not only that, but everything leading up to is becomes obsolete way too fast. Gate things and you have a much longer, more fulfilling experience where each step is relevant.

 

[deadscion]

If I could actually say something good here, I only speak out against extremes Drbretto, yes a good game must have a method to the madness for the sake of player self-satisfaction, if nothing else.
Also of note, has anyone tried the Doom like Dungeons by Blackjar72? Totally awesome experience, it has surface access, mazes full of spawn cages and lots of loot chests. I recommend plenty of armor and a lot of torches, hah! fun is what games are about.

 

[MacAisling]

So to get off the SevTech bashing and back on Topic.

I think what we all would like is something similar to IE Expert mode.

Not all of us. I am not a fan of the design philosophy that seems to underly the hardcore and expert mode packs. Gating the easy, user friendly options behind less friendly alternatives that do the same thing just annoys the hell out of me. If you want me to use IC2 reactors, just don't include Extreme Reactors in the pack. Stepping me through key or obscure features of a mod feels kind of pointless when you've disabled half the mod and made such extreme recipe changes that it is unrecognizable in any other pack. You want a more focused experience? Pick a path, reduce the alternatives.

Adding cross mod compatibility? Always a plus. Complexity that forces me to think and plan more (AE2 channels)? I'm a more puzzle, less parkour kind of guy, so plus for me, but not necessarily for everyone. Forcing me to stare a a crafting grid for several hours straight to progress? Minus. 50 types of armor not as good as vanilla iron (and most other forms of useless clutter)? Minus. Encouraging AFK? Time AFK is time my computer is busy but I'm not playing, so minus. Could kill me? That is part of the challenge so grudgingly OK. Will definitely, unavoidably kill me? That's not challenging, that's trolling. Things that took hours to make but still have a good chance of breaking or exploding even if you use the right tools and do everything correctly? **** you, the horse you rode in on, and your little dog, too.

All that said, I've played enough in the FTB kitchen sink to know what I like and to start creating my own personal packs. Lately I've been seeing some mods that look interesting on their own but would be pretty much useless in a big kitchen sink pack. Of particular interest right now is Kitsu's Forgecraft (a blacksmithing mod), which requires Primal Core. With this path to tools and weapons, I definitely have to leave out Tinkers Construct and may ultimately want to disable vanilla tools, weapons, and ore processing. Add Thaumcraft for mid game and Advanced Rocketry for late game, set it in a skylands (not skyblock) overworld, and I have the beginnings of a pack, relatively small and simple, yet challenging. Learning the new mods and developing the pack into something ready to share should keep me occupied for a long, long time.

Also, goals are important. If your goal is to design the ultimate fully automated chicken farm, that's great, but sometimes you just want a reliable source of chickens without all that fuss.

 

[Rixxaw]

MacAisling - I like your post even if you are dis-agreeing with me in part.

To clarify, I hated IC2, and was ready to quite IE:E when it was forcing me to use it. However, i learned to love it. The key difference between forcing people to use an IC2 reactor and forcing people to use an EFab, is that the IC2 reactor was actually useful as a power source for other mods, and ultimately the fastest furnace I've ever seen was an IC2 Reactor powered 26 overclock IC2 Electric Furnace. AE2 literally couldn't keep up with it. The EFAB however is just a multiblock crafting table, with no other purpose that will unlikely ever be used in any other modpack. If the Efab Dev wants to add some function to his mod that makes it useful in other ways like maybe an enchantment system or armor repair solution, or ore processing system.

The EFAB is essentially a fabricated mod to control progression, where IC2 Reactors were added to IC2 to give more diverse power sources, and has a deep and rich interplay in how you lay out your reactor and automate it.

IC2 Reactor = Freedom, Complexity and Useful, allows you to progress deeper into IC2 for Quantum Suites and Solar Panels. Not to mention the excitement that it could Explode and blow up your precious base!!
Efab - linear progression with no upside. A Brown blob in the middle of your base you have to build around.

 

[Pyure]

Efab - linear progression with no upside. A Brown blob in the middle of your base you have to build around.

Well this isn't really logically valid: It has the upside that people enjoy using it as an alternative crafting alternative. Obviously not all people, but it appeals to some. Presumably the core audience for the pack. And in this case, its an expert-type pack which is going to be niche-y (and, frankly, unpopular) to begin with.

Its nice in the same non-flashy way that other packdev tools are nice: it provides a mechanism that devs can add or not add as they choose.

I'm considering adding it to my own pack. And, again, that likely rules out everyone on this thread from ever using my pack. Which is totes fine with me: the pack isn't designed for all player types.

 

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I'm going to kind of agree with @MacAisling here...

Complexity CAN improve enjoyment, but only IF it is done properly. Much of what he said, I'd like to echo from a different perspective.

Mod cross-compatibility? Good. Gating demonstratively more powerful things behind less powerful things so nothing is obsolete? A good idea, but often poorly implemented. But if you are going to change a mod so radically as has happened in some cases, you might as well just not include it at all.

Timesink for the sake of timesink? Bad. Having said that, you don't need to just stare at it for a half hour, you CAN do something else like, oh I dunno, mining or harvesting and making food or setting up a coking oven or alloy furnace or something like that. Sure, it takes a half hour to make the smeltery controller, but that doesn't mean you have to sit there and do NOTHING but watch it craft for that half hour. Multitasking, I believe it's called. And you CAN shift+click it to set up, say, a stack of patterns going and go to something else while that is working. So at least in my play style, this is less of an issue than some people have indicated.

Personally, I think IC2 has become an unenjoyable mod. There are no redeeming features left to entice or encourage me to play with it, and forcing me to interact with something I actively dislike is an excellent way to piss me off. I don't care how much you have or haven't beefed it up or nerfed everything else to oblivion to make it nice by comparison... you are forcing me to undertake something I actively dislike undertaking. So long, farewell, and adieu. It's not that I don't understand the mod, it is that I *DO* understand it, and it is complete and utter garbage, at least in my personal opinion. YMMV.

 

[Pyure]

Timesink for the sake of timesink? Bad.

I don't actually recall which crowd you categorize into, but a lot of people say this when they don't respect that the progression route lies in leveraging the options to mitigate that timesink. Good expert-type packs use this tool like a scalpel: too much, and you hurt your audience. But get it just right, and it because a mod-knowledge exercise that challenges you to bring the best mod content on board at the best times.

When there *are* no methods to mitigate the wait, that's a bit of an issue. The AE2 crystal seed mechanic was almost a big problem for me. The only thing that really saved it was that it was infinitely scaleable: You could bake as many seeds as you wanted.

 

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I don't actually recall which crowd you categorize into, but a lot of people say this when they don't respect that the progression route lies in leveraging the options to mitigate that timesink. Good expert-type packs use this tool like a scalpel: too much, and you hurt your audience. But get it just right, and it because a mod-knowledge exercise that challenges you to bring the best mod content on board at the best times.

When there *are* no methods to mitigate the wait, that's a bit of an issue. The AE2 crystal seed mechanic was almost a big problem for me. The only thing that really saved it was that it was infinitely scaleable: You could bake as many seeds as you wanted.

I'm referring specifically to the early-game gearbox from Continuum. On the face, not necessarily bad in and of itself, because you can just go mining or whatever. However, it's a timesink purely for the sake of timesink, because you *have* no other options available. And from what I've seen, you *never* get away from it in the entire mod, there ARE no alternatives, because it is the 'required gimmick' of the entire pack.

I don't mind it necessarily when it starts off as a timesink and then graduates to something automatable, the AE2 crystal seed mechanic with the addon that gave you a machine that did the same thing, as a very good example. You needed to do at least some seed growth manually, but once you got that machine up and running, it was at least able to be automated much more easily. Yes, the regular seed growth system *can* be automated, I've done it myself, but it's a monumental pain and requires other mods to really make it work.

If it takes a while, but can be automated, then it isn't a timesink for the sake of timesink, because you can have it working in the background while you do other things. It's the obligatory 'no you cannot automate this, and if you figure out a way we will nerf it' timesink that I strongly object to.

 

[Pyure]

I'm referring specifically to the early-game gearbox from Continuum. On the face, not necessarily bad in and of itself, because you can just go mining or whatever. However, it's a timesink purely for the sake of timesink, because you *have* no other options available. And from what I've seen, you *never* get away from it in the entire mod, there ARE no alternatives, because it is the 'required gimmick' of the entire pack.

I don't mind it necessarily when it starts off as a timesink and then graduates to something automatable, the AE2 crystal seed mechanic with the addon that gave you a machine that did the same thing, as a very good example. You needed to do at least some seed growth manually, but once you got that machine up and running, it was at least able to be automated much more easily. Yes, the regular seed growth system *can* be automated, I've done it myself, but it's a monumental pain and requires other mods to really make it work.

If it takes a while, but can be automated, then it isn't a timesink for the sake of timesink, because you can have it working in the background while you do other things. It's the obligatory 'no you cannot automate this, and if you figure out a way we will nerf it' timesink that I strongly object to.

The gearbox itself doesn't bother me at all, it took no time to make it. What bothered me actually was the fact that I was restricted to 4 gearboxes (I'm a GT player...of COURSE I made a bunch simultaneously. Only 4 count)

I feel like I could have been rewarded for techier play, but got cut off by an arbitrary barrier.

 

[Cptqrk]

I feel a lot of hate for EFAB as a mod, but I think it's the implementation of it in t his pack that makes it... unloved??

Looking at a mod spotlight on it, the mod itself isn't that bad, and can be cool for mid game automation, but it's been made to be super configurable, and the FTB team has decided to make it a bottleneck.

 

[Hambeau]

I feel a lot of hate for EFAB as a mod, but I think it's the implementation of it in t his pack that makes it... unloved??

Looking at a mod spotlight on it, the mod itself isn't that bad, and can be cool for mid game automation, but it's been made to be super configurable, and the FTB team has decided to make it a bottleneck.

I would agree with this... Let me see eFab in a Direwolf20 pack with no artificial restrictions before I declare that it is EVIL

This is the problem with introducing new mods in highly customized packs... You don't know what it was originally designed to perform like.

 

[MacAisling]

I would agree with this... Let me see eFab in a Direwolf20 pack with no artificial restrictions before I declare that it is EVIL

This is the problem with introducing new mods in highly customized packs... You don't know what it was originally designed to perform like.

Yes! I am extremely happy to discover that primal core is not the thing forcing you to start with 1/3 of a chest. Vanilla chests are already too small in a modded environment. Those starter chests are one of many big reasons I will never play a pack like forever stranded or sevtech, although I will watch other people play those packs, at least up to a point.

 

[Pyure]

This is the problem with introducing new mods in highly customized packs... You don't know what it was originally designed to perform like.

Interesting point. Also, for all I know, the arbitrary four-gearbox thing is configurable. I should check that out

I wonder if the e-fab would be more accepted if it were a bonus-route rather than a solitary gate. Like, what if you could cut your resource-cost in half for, say, a Hopper by using the e-fab?

 

[Nuclear_Creeper0]

The best difficulty is difficulty in automation. Age of Engineering did this fantastically with Calculator circuits. The base ingredient is just cobblestone, but the automation of setting up a full factory for circuits is skill based. Skill-based things are good, resource/time-based things are bad. Skill-based implies not everyone can do it. The EFab isn't skill based, its just time/resource-based, anyone can do it given enough time. Compare that to like all of Age of Engineering which creating automation is key to the pack, resource grind gets eliminated fairly quickly at Age 5 with the unlocking of EnderIO and Environmental Tech.