Your "skill" stuff is just "number of steps removed" from the objective. Anyone can do anything in Age of Engineering automation, given enough time.
AoE was a bit too simple overall for my liking.
Since when is added complexity and difficulty more fun?
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AoE was a bit too simple overall for my liking.
Just gonna throw a couple of chips into the ring here:
Something I've liked about SevTech (having watched it, and not played it) is that the tedium of making chests and stuff is eased as you progress through. The saw makes things considerably easier, once you've got there. Likewise, once you've progressed further, the flame grilled woppers are easier to make. Chests are straightforward, once you're past that early stage. I get that its not for everyone, but you're not stuck with that method FOREVER, you know?
And I agree with the point made earlier; its more the implementation of EFab that (forgive me) grinds people's gears, than the actual mod I think. I actually think that having a crafting system that can use self-generated steam, liquids, and later on power and stuff is REALLY cool! Like, super neat! But odd things are made to use it when others aren't, you know? Like a simple pick needs it, but a complex machine just needs a crafting table. I do get why its done that way though. I quite like the thought of using it to improve certain other things later - like for example carpenter crafting in forestry, you could add in an EFab recipe for that stuff so it can be much faster and easier to automate; stuff like that!
There's also absolutely an element of personal taste here, which is why I don't think anyone is wrong in their points, because opinion is also valid. I do also agree with Nuke in that there should perhaps be a list of recommended seeds for SevTech, when random chance can play such a big part in whether people enjoy their experiences with it!
Some of the power issues with the EFab are a bit thorny; the way its implemented so you can speed up things that need power but its not as simple as building more of those parts and supplying more power, from what I've seen. The power optimiser lifts that cap, but its such an expensive thing, so late. If there could be some sort of tiered approach to allowing increasing amounts of power to be used in the EFab...? I dunno.
Sorry, got a bit rambling there
Something I've liked about SevTech (having watched it, and not played it) is that the tedium of making chests and stuff is eased as you progress through. The saw makes things considerably easier, once you've got there. Likewise, once you've progressed further, the flame grilled woppers are easier to make. Chests are straightforward, once you're past that early stage. I get that its not for everyone, but you're not stuck with that method FOREVER, you know?
And I agree with the point made earlier; its more the implementation of EFab that (forgive me) grinds people's gears, than the actual mod I think. I actually think that having a crafting system that can use self-generated steam, liquids, and later on power and stuff is REALLY cool! Like, super neat! But odd things are made to use it when others aren't, you know? Like a simple pick needs it, but a complex machine just needs a crafting table. I do get why its done that way though. I quite like the thought of using it to improve certain other things later - like for example carpenter crafting in forestry, you could add in an EFab recipe for that stuff so it can be much faster and easier to automate; stuff like that!
There's also absolutely an element of personal taste here, which is why I don't think anyone is wrong in their points, because opinion is also valid. I do also agree with Nuke in that there should perhaps be a list of recommended seeds for SevTech, when random chance can play such a big part in whether people enjoy their experiences with it!
Some of the power issues with the EFab are a bit thorny; the way its implemented so you can speed up things that need power but its not as simple as building more of those parts and supplying more power, from what I've seen. The power optimiser lifts that cap, but its such an expensive thing, so late. If there could be some sort of tiered approach to allowing increasing amounts of power to be used in the EFab...? I dunno.
Sorry, got a bit rambling there
I think another thing to consider here is that a lot of "expert" packs inadvertently help with a major issue that modded Minecraft can have. That being "choice paralysis", And if you don't know what that means, basically it's when someone's confronted with so many choices that their brain "short circuits". This can lead to scenarios where the player loses interest and just stops playing. For example, If I'm playing ATM 3 and I'm ready to get into a "major" mod, then I have the option of getting into Thermal expansion, Ender IO, Blood magic, Thaumcraft, mekanism, Industrial foregoing, Botania, Pneumaticraft, and Anything else I may be forgetting. Needless to say, It's very easy to see how this can overwhelm the player. However, if I'm playing a pack such as "Divine journey", then the Limitations put in place by the pack keep me from getting overwhelmed. so first I get into Ender IO and TE, Then I get into blood magic, which gives me access to MFR, AE2, And then Botania. And then Botania gives me access to a few other mods, Including Thaumcraft which allows me to progress further. With this, I have a clear view of What I need to do, and What I need to get to.
I'm always a fan of having at least 2 options for crafting a regular component, and tried that in my own pack Shattered. The first few crafts may be grindy, but what you are building will make further crafts quicker & less annoying.
For example, Metal plates in my shattered pack. The first available was the Tinkers heavy plates, at 8 ingot cost. From that you can make a Railcraft Rolling machine, which is 4 ingots per plate, then a IE metal press, which turns 1 ingot into a plate. You don't need to make a IE press, but long term it'll cost you resources.
What annoys me more is the "primal"/"primitive" approach being added a lot more to packs. A lot of it is pointless grind/restriction, while some are quite interesting mechanics.
For example, Metal plates in my shattered pack. The first available was the Tinkers heavy plates, at 8 ingot cost. From that you can make a Railcraft Rolling machine, which is 4 ingots per plate, then a IE metal press, which turns 1 ingot into a plate. You don't need to make a IE press, but long term it'll cost you resources.
What annoys me more is the "primal"/"primitive" approach being added a lot more to packs. A lot of it is pointless grind/restriction, while some are quite interesting mechanics.
This is a random pondering based on the thread title, not in response to any individual here.
So, there are complications that rise when one thinks about things like these too hard the wrong way. What's the "wrong way"? It's when you basically intentionally position yourself to put anything into its worst light. This is often exacerbated by a chaser of absolutism.
Is complexity and difficulty more fun? That is a fundamentally broken question, like an equation with no constant.
At its core, Minecraft is like 75% a "clean your room" simulator. Is cleaning your room fun? Hell no. Neither is digging or getting killed by zombies, yet minecraft is full of nothing but that and keeps us coming back for more. Really think about it, though, and like 75% of the best chunk of gameplay is putting your shit away.
In fact, most of the (non-creative) skills that are tested are basically the same skills tested in every day boring life. I could sit here and tell you you're not only cleaning your room all day, but you're just doing more chores, with the added benefit of being able to do bigger, more complicated chores later on! How is that any fun??
Well, it's about the most addicting experience out there, as we all know. And that's because it's basically a mini universe with similar rules to the real universe, but simple and small enough that we can be GODS, essentially. That threshold of difficulty and complexity is entirely based on the user. In practice, even the hardest hard mode is much simpler and less complicated than the real world, so it always comes down to what level you personally want.
The increased push for more and more complex packs really just boils down to the core fan base getting more and more mature and needing more and more complexity to remain engaged in the process. That doesn't mean that everyone needs to move at the same pace, and it certainly doesn't mean that complexity is the only way to keep things interesting. It is, however, inevitable that a fan base as rabid and into it as this always continues to push the envelope. It's a need-based evolution and it's not going to stop.
More new and interesting ideas are brought up every day, and the more people can do with the main product, the better. But, actually new innovation pops up on occasion. People still need "more" so more and more, people will have to just take what's there and give it "more". Ideal? maybe not, but that's life. You don't need to love every pack.
So, there are complications that rise when one thinks about things like these too hard the wrong way. What's the "wrong way"? It's when you basically intentionally position yourself to put anything into its worst light. This is often exacerbated by a chaser of absolutism.
Is complexity and difficulty more fun? That is a fundamentally broken question, like an equation with no constant.
At its core, Minecraft is like 75% a "clean your room" simulator. Is cleaning your room fun? Hell no. Neither is digging or getting killed by zombies, yet minecraft is full of nothing but that and keeps us coming back for more. Really think about it, though, and like 75% of the best chunk of gameplay is putting your shit away.
In fact, most of the (non-creative) skills that are tested are basically the same skills tested in every day boring life. I could sit here and tell you you're not only cleaning your room all day, but you're just doing more chores, with the added benefit of being able to do bigger, more complicated chores later on! How is that any fun??
Well, it's about the most addicting experience out there, as we all know. And that's because it's basically a mini universe with similar rules to the real universe, but simple and small enough that we can be GODS, essentially. That threshold of difficulty and complexity is entirely based on the user. In practice, even the hardest hard mode is much simpler and less complicated than the real world, so it always comes down to what level you personally want.
The increased push for more and more complex packs really just boils down to the core fan base getting more and more mature and needing more and more complexity to remain engaged in the process. That doesn't mean that everyone needs to move at the same pace, and it certainly doesn't mean that complexity is the only way to keep things interesting. It is, however, inevitable that a fan base as rabid and into it as this always continues to push the envelope. It's a need-based evolution and it's not going to stop.
More new and interesting ideas are brought up every day, and the more people can do with the main product, the better. But, actually new innovation pops up on occasion. People still need "more" so more and more, people will have to just take what's there and give it "more". Ideal? maybe not, but that's life. You don't need to love every pack.
I have to admit, my favorite hardcore pack is: Automaton. It's very focused around the three main mods, Immersive Engineering and addons, Applied Energistics, and Mekanism. Except... you need to get through Immersive to build AE2 stuff, and AE2 to build mekanism stuff. But once you get to AE2, you can more easily automate IE stuff, and once you reach Mekanism, your steel problem is solved.
But it's not merely okay, once you build this particular IE machine, you unlock the ability to build AE. Recipes are changed to not necessarily be hard, but to require those previous components. So you need IE Circuit boards to make the AE Power Acceptor and HOP Graphite to make the AE2 controller. And getting into mekanism requires being able to make the AE2 energy cell, as well as one of the IE capacitors, but steel casings require steel sheetmetal. But, by then it's trivially easy to automate making it with AE2.
That's the kind of pack I like, which is recipes changed sensibly to require automation, but not necessarily to make them impossibly difficult.
But it's not merely okay, once you build this particular IE machine, you unlock the ability to build AE. Recipes are changed to not necessarily be hard, but to require those previous components. So you need IE Circuit boards to make the AE Power Acceptor and HOP Graphite to make the AE2 controller. And getting into mekanism requires being able to make the AE2 energy cell, as well as one of the IE capacitors, but steel casings require steel sheetmetal. But, by then it's trivially easy to automate making it with AE2.
That's the kind of pack I like, which is recipes changed sensibly to require automation, but not necessarily to make them impossibly difficult.
What I get out of watching others play Continuum: Efab, making random recipes as painful and annoying to craft as Steves Carts...
Steve's Carts isn't so bad if you spend a bit of time to make the upgrades for the assembler.
Industrial Espionage is a personal favorite. Instantly shaves 5 minutes off the clock plus makes things faster.
Industrial Espionage is a personal favorite. Instantly shaves 5 minutes off the clock plus makes things faster.
I'm a ways into Continuum and I can honestly say, none of the Efab recipes have felt like time wasters or time gates like soe many people seems to think they would. Most of the early long recipes you come across are completely mitigated by the fact that you have a crap ton of stuff to do starting up so the "wait" for you Smeltry controller is not even noticed because you are setting up other quality of life stuff around your base of operations. Myself, I built up my Oak, Birch and Spruce farms, then built out a few derpy wheat and Potato farms to tide me over until I got my nice looking/efficient farm plots setup with worms.
My the 2nd or so hour you have the iron to build out 3 more gear boxes and those times are cut to a much more manageable wait. The only thing I've really found myself waiting around for so far is Steel in the IE blast furnace, which has nothing to do with the Efab.
so... Just my 2 cents but as of yet I don't thing the Efab is a bad thing.
Could it be used better? Probably.
Is it a gating method? Of course, but so are about 1/3 of all Mods in some way.
Is it the most annoying crafting component of the Continuum pack? Not at all, some of recipes that have been tweeked don't even touch the Efab and are far more frustrating.
My the 2nd or so hour you have the iron to build out 3 more gear boxes and those times are cut to a much more manageable wait. The only thing I've really found myself waiting around for so far is Steel in the IE blast furnace, which has nothing to do with the Efab.
so... Just my 2 cents but as of yet I don't thing the Efab is a bad thing.
Could it be used better? Probably.
Is it a gating method? Of course, but so are about 1/3 of all Mods in some way.
Is it the most annoying crafting component of the Continuum pack? Not at all, some of recipes that have been tweeked don't even touch the Efab and are far more frustrating.
I haven't touched it since mc1.6.4, so things may have improved since, but making galgadorian ingots is the single most aggravating crafting process I have ever put up with. Coupled with what I remember feeling like a 2-3 hour wait for the cart assembler is why I don't use it any more. I'm sure there are mods with more expensive and time consuming crafting recipes, but if they look like that kind of mod, I won't go near them, I don't care how nice the final toys are.
Bonsai trees. Now that is the kind of automated tree farm I can get behind. The yield may be slow, but the initial time and material investment is minimal and there is no maitainence cost. Set it, forget it, have enough when you need it without having to void an infinite excess. What is the point of spending hours or days to build a system that generates 5000 units per tick if you are just going to throw everything away after the 1st few minutes? Especially if it cripples the server you are on to the point where you and everyone else stop wanting to play on it?
As I stated in another post, I make no judgements on Efab until I see it in an "unmodified" pack like Direwolf20. Some mods in Continuum, you have to admit, have been severely reconfigured, and the structure of Efab's description in Continuum leads me to believe that by default you can use more than 4 gearboxes.
I've never seen a 2-3 wait time on a cart assembly. And I never really bothered with Galgadorian metal. Reinforced was always good enough for me.
Don't think I've ever seen a wait that long before either. I know reinforced and Galgadorian cart bases cause longer craft times but like @KingTriaxx I've never gone beyond Reinforced. I also do not believe I've ever made anything but a tree farm from Steve's carts. Some of the other things look neat but ultimately not worth the resources to make.
I tend to do the farmer, but yeah. On the other hand, I always start the cart building, then go off and do other things and when I'm done, then the cart's ready.
"Since when is added complexity and difficulty more fun?"
My answer: Since GregTech's oregen.
"Vanilla" minecraft ore generation's philosophy is to place ALL the different ore blocks into EVERY chunk. The "vanilla" oregen is what most modpacks use. For me it is so incredibly boring to generate ores this way. You never have to leave the chunk you spawned in! Continuum uses this vanilla method of oregen, and that (to me) is the main reason why Continuum is not all that exciting.
GregTech ore generation is completely different than the vanilla method. In a GregTech modpack, the ores generate in big areas, separated by wide distances (and depths). In order to make iron ingots, first you have to get out and explore the world to find an iron ore vein. This can take quite a while, and can take quite a bit of digging. GregTech has approximately 30 different type of ore veins to find in the world, and each vein contains about three different related ores (the Galena ore vein, for instance, is where you find Lead Ore, Silver Ore, and Galena Ore).
For me, I can't play modpacks anymore that use the "vanilla" oregen method. It's so boring, it's painful. GregTech modpacks, on the other hand, well those are all I play anymore. I *LOVE* the GT oregen so much, and I love how many different ores there are to process into different raw materials in GregTech.
Oh well I guess that's enough writing. If you DO happen to be a player that DOES believe that adding more complexity is indeed much more fun... then I cannot recomment GregTech modpacks strongly enough for you. For the rest of you slackers? Have fun with your boring vanilla oregen.
My answer: Since GregTech's oregen.
"Vanilla" minecraft ore generation's philosophy is to place ALL the different ore blocks into EVERY chunk. The "vanilla" oregen is what most modpacks use. For me it is so incredibly boring to generate ores this way. You never have to leave the chunk you spawned in! Continuum uses this vanilla method of oregen, and that (to me) is the main reason why Continuum is not all that exciting.
GregTech ore generation is completely different than the vanilla method. In a GregTech modpack, the ores generate in big areas, separated by wide distances (and depths). In order to make iron ingots, first you have to get out and explore the world to find an iron ore vein. This can take quite a while, and can take quite a bit of digging. GregTech has approximately 30 different type of ore veins to find in the world, and each vein contains about three different related ores (the Galena ore vein, for instance, is where you find Lead Ore, Silver Ore, and Galena Ore).
For me, I can't play modpacks anymore that use the "vanilla" oregen method. It's so boring, it's painful. GregTech modpacks, on the other hand, well those are all I play anymore. I *LOVE* the GT oregen so much, and I love how many different ores there are to process into different raw materials in GregTech.
Oh well I guess that's enough writing. If you DO happen to be a player that DOES believe that adding more complexity is indeed much more fun... then I cannot recomment GregTech modpacks strongly enough for you. For the rest of you slackers? Have fun with your boring vanilla oregen.
Literally since life had a complex mind of any kind.
Life in general "plays" because it biologically encourages us to refine the skills that might be important to us in life. We practice skills useful to our species, and in return our brain generates positive feedback so that we build on it: turn it up a notch and try again.
Consider the sorts of games that cats play, or dogs play. What skills are they practicing? Makes sense, right?
After that, consider why a puppy might be excited when you throw a ball two feet, but a grown dog can't be arsed to get up for such a lame toss.
Finally, consider what critical skills homo sapiens brings to the table that elevated them to the top of every food chain.
People play games like "complex" modded Minecraft because it progressively challenges us to develop and refine critical thinking skills. Why do we think "added complexity and difficulty is more fun"? Its because, for us, low-complexity modded minecraft can be analagous to throwing the ball two feet.
Sometimes a dude just wants to feel challenged.
I feel like modded minecraft by definition is added complexity. I'm playing vanilla on my phone, and I miss the complexity of modded. Its still difficult, I hasten to add! Its not that its less difficult, but there's definitely less drive for me to do stuff, because there's less for me TO do. I'm not thinking about getting this crystal or that ore, or going to this dimension or making that machine.
And sometimes a dude has a job, a significant other, a kid, and doesn't have time to faff about with pointless boring grind for the sake of boring pointless grind or half hour timer gates.
Here's the problem, as I see it, with virtually every single 'expert' or 'hardcore' pack I've seen: It's not more challenging, and it is certainly not more engaging.
Take, for example, Continuum and its decision to have two planks per log and two sticks per plank. This does absolutely zero for complexity or difficulty, it just doubles or quadruples the early game tedium. You're already going to need a tree farm, now you need one roughly twice as big, in an open-world game where space is not a significant concern. This is not challenging, this is needing to chop down twice to four times as many trees as you otherwise would need in order to get the same amount of resources, but the act of chopping trees is neither challenging nor dangerous in any way, and it certainly isn't engaging content.
It is boring pointless grind for the sake of boring pointless grind. It is neither enjoyable nor engaging nor complex. Staring at a crafting grid until my eyeballs bleed is neither enjoyable nor engaging nor complex, but that ended up being roughly 80% of the total gameplay in Age of Engineering.
Complexity can be more fun when it is engaging and enjoyable complexity. Give me an actual puzzle, don't give me a third from one puzzle, a third from a second puzzle, and some frankensteined parts and tell me to go make a mona lisa by banging your head repeatedly against your keyboard until your brains ooze out of your ears.
Yes, but the way you see it is objectively incorrect. (I have a job, wife, 4yo and 2mo, and virtually zero time for any pointless activity. So you know where I'm coming from.)
This isn't an insult. You agree that not everyone has the exact same capacity to see things from wider angles, right? People often see it as an insult, which is ridiculous. I see this topic from a wider angle than you do. Of course Nobody ever on the internet has successfully accepted this from another person, so, well, I don't expect any different here.
I'm coining a term: Some people are grind-blind. They see "grind" and immediately think pack-devs are being lazy. When you dig deeper, you often find that the challenge doesn't reside in your ability to click a tree 20x longer than someone else; its evaluating your ability to review the mods at your disposal, choose the right tool for the job, and leverage it, thereby mitigating the 20 clicks.
What's so special about 4 planks per log? People have a magical expectation of it because it came from vanilla. When it gets changed in a pack, its because that pack is intended to go at a specific pace. An alternative approach would have been to make everything cost twice as much wood. Either way, the player is forced to identify the tricks the pack is offering you to improve that pace. People need to realize that packs have a fundamental right to design a new resource baseline.
There are no "actual puzzles" in minecraft, unless you're talking about adventure maps that can be "won" with an online walkthrough. By this I mean, a quest-riddle hints that you dig under the 3rd totem pole to find the next quest item, etc etc.
There's only "stuff I don't know how to do yet." Building something like, say, a ReactorCraft fusion reactor is one of the most complicated things you can do in Minecraft. But its less difficult than achieving, say, Neutronium in Gregtech, because there's a bazzillion little pieces you need to learn in order to make things take months instead of years.
The people complaining about lack of "real", non-grind challenge don't realize that the thing they're missing is usually new mod content.
Again a reason I like Automaton. Yes, there's crafting, and yes, it's repeating, but it's both automatable, and pretty easily so. It's not hard to automate putting resources in one end, and getting products out the other. But more to the point, it's enjoyable automation. Not automation because it's absolutely, strictly required because the next step require 800 items to craft and each of those has dozens of prerequisites.
Automaton? Oh, I need more power. *insert resources into box A, stuff to build steam turbine appears in Box B.*
It's fun, it's quick to play and get into, but the recipes while changed to need other things, aren't so incredibly difficult you'll spend hours dealing with them.
Automaton? Oh, I need more power. *insert resources into box A, stuff to build steam turbine appears in Box B.*
It's fun, it's quick to play and get into, but the recipes while changed to need other things, aren't so incredibly difficult you'll spend hours dealing with them.