Recent Events Discussion (RED) Thread

[squeek502]

much like how Vegans ignore the obvious and say they are better because they don't harm nature while they power their houses with Photovoltaic Cells instead of Geothermal Vents, use Electric Cars instead of walk, and wear clothes instead of run around naked.

Tangent alert. Calling vegans out for not being part of the solution to all world problems is not an argument against veganism. Environmental friendliness is not even an inherent part of veganism (though it can potentially be part of an argument for veganism).

Veganism is a way of living that seeks to exclude, as far as possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing and any other purpose

 

[YX33A]

Tangent alert. Calling vegans out for not being part of the solution to all world problems is not an argument against veganism. Environmental friendliness is not even an inherent part of veganism (though it can potentially be part of an argument for veganism).

I know, but have you met many of them? I agree with the core tenants. I enjoy meat, wear nice clothes that I'm fairly sure weren't made with cruelty to non-human animals, and somehow too damn many "Vegans" think it's not too much to ask that we don't kill any cows.
Also, Tangent Alert? No shit. That's just me posting. Heck, that's me IRL too.
After all, In Vino Veritas.

 

[squeek502]

I know, but have you met many of them? I agree with the core tenants. I enjoy meat, wear nice clothes that I'm fairly sure weren't made with cruelty to non-human animals, and somehow too damn many "Vegans" think it's not too much to ask that we don't kill any cows.
Also, Tangent Alert? No shit. That's just me posting. Heck, that's me IRL too.
After all, In Vino Veritas.

There being 'too many "Vegans"' could serve to prove that it isn't too much to ask. Animal products aren't necessary (for the vast majority of people), so any potential harm you cause by eating/wearing/using animals is avoidable; vegans just make sure they try to avoid that potential for harm. By the way, I meant that my response was likely to spawn a tangent.

 

[YX33A]

There being 'too many "Vegans"' could serve to prove that it isn't too much to ask. Animal products aren't necessary (for the vast majority of people), so any potential harm you cause by eating/wearing animals is avoidable; vegans just make sure they try to avoid that potential for harm. By the way, I meant that my response was likely to spawn a tangent.

Ah. Well, for the vast majority of people... do you drive on a blacktop road(aka a normal road in the civilized world)? Do you use shampoo or conditioner? Use literally anything from this image?

I love the idea of not harming animals that aren't human. But it's kinda hard to not use them for this modern life we life.
Hence why I take a piss on "Vegans", because they're just as annoying to me as "Science is Bad, God is Truth" sorta folks who bitch how Ungodly Technology is while recording it with a $1,500 Camera, streaming it online via Fiber Optic Cables, and posting it on Youtube.
Well, not quite as annoying. High up on my list of "Are you fucking kidding me?!" automatic response types, but the distance between those two is quite large, and is in fact, measured in AU.

The whole bit you quoted(save for the third one because "Rule of Three" and "Arson, Murder, Jaywalking"), these are the environmentally sound yet not insane solutions.

 

[squeek502]

Ah. Well, for the vast majority of people... do you drive on a blacktop road(aka a normal road in the civilized world)? Do you use shampoo or conditioner? Use literally anything from this image?

You're missing the important part of the definition of veganism:

Veganism is a way of living that seeks to exclude, as far as possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing and any other purpose

Yes, animal products are incredibly pervasive in all aspects of life, but some are easier to avoid than others, and avoiding the avoidable is what veganism is about. It's also worth it to note that the picture you posted is a representation of current use; it doesn't mean that cows are the only possible source for those products.

The whole bit you quoted(save for the third one because "Rule of Three" and "Arson, Murder, Jaywalking"), these are the environmentally sound yet not insane solutions.

Sure, but they have nothing to do with veganism. In fact, many people would add veganism to your list of environmentally sound yet not insane solutions.

 

[YX33A]

My real issue is that far to many Vegans are basically Straw Man Vegans, who actually believe the shit they spew. I enjoy the idea, but it's like how far too many "Christians" forgot the whole Christianity bit. But enough of that drivel, and before I incite a bloody flamewar(that I'd enjoy immensely none the less), has everyone seen the TC 4.2 Node/Vis changes? Me Gusta.
EDIT: Missed the word Believe? Gods. I guess that I just couldn't even believe they believe it.

 

[squeek502]

My real issue is that far to many Vegans are basically Straw Man Vegans, who actually believe the shit they spew. I enjoy the idea, but it's like how far too many "Christians" forgot the whole Christianity bit.

Guilt by association is not a valid argument. It's an unfortunate position that vegans are in; they have a completely valid argument to present and yet they have, for whatever reasons, gained a pretty bad reputation. I hope that someday you'll be willing to look past what you dislike about vegans and truly consider veganism as an option.

EDIT: Also, yes, TC4.2 looks cool.

 

[YX33A]

Guilt by association is not a valid argument. It's an unfortunate position that vegans are in; they have a completely valid argument to present and yet they have, for whatever reasons, gained a pretty bad reputation. I hope that someday you'll be willing to look past what you dislike about vegans and truly consider veganism as an option.

It is, and I know it is. The catch is that far too many Vegans seem that dumb. And I admit that it's just that people are dumb. It's a great idea. On paper, it seems perfect.
So does Communism. Or Fascistism. Dictatorships. Democracy. The Open Market. Big Government. Small Government. No Government. Magocrasy. I could go on, y'know?
The point is, as good as it is on paper, the tough part is doing it in real life. So, I look for Environmental Sustainability. Not clear-cutting forests, but replanting trees if you cut them down. Not blinding using Solar because it's "Greener", but looking for power sources that are competitive with Nuclear Power that have less dangerous side effects when insane people get their hands on it. And of course, knowing what effect things have in the grand scheme of things and not outright saying that the fact that we went up 1 or 2 degrees globally in about 100 years is an atrocity, without saying why it is or when the last time this happened was and what happened then, as an example but not a outright proof.

 

[SatanicSanta]

Guilt by association is not a valid argument. It's an unfortunate position that vegans are in; they have a completely valid argument to present and yet they have, for whatever reasons, gained a pretty bad reputation. I hope that someday you'll be willing to look past what you dislike about vegans and truly consider veganism as an option.

I'd go Vegan if I could afford it. Vegan options for stuff is way too expensive to be an option, unfortunately.

 

[YX33A]

I'd go Vegan if I could afford it. Vegan options for stuff is way too expensive to be an option, unfortunately.

Hence why it's not realistic for the masses, just the cow alone makes it damn near impossible to be a real vegan, and all the benefit is in the end is Smug Superiority. Hence all the smug "I eat meat and you can't even wear those clothes if you are truly as Vegan as you claim you are" responses Vegans end up getting. Far too many idiots in that group. Far too many in most groups, in fact. One has to recognize the chaff and ignore it in favor of the wheat to see sane, reasonable people. Which sucks because they are the cream in the milk, if it sank instead of float.

 

[squeek502]

I'd go Vegan if I could afford it. Vegan options for stuff is way too expensive to be an option, unfortunately.

Rice, legumes, vegetables, and fruit are pretty cheap; you don't need processed meat substitutes, pre-packaged vegan foods, or organic produce to be vegan. I spend an absurdly low amount of money on food. Knowing how to cook (or having a willingness to learn how to) helps a lot.

Hence why it's not realistic for the masses, just the cow alone makes it damn near impossible to be a real vegan, and all the benefit is in the end is Smug Superiority. Hence all the smug "I eat meat and you can't even wear those clothes if you are truly as Vegan as you claim you are" responses Vegans end up getting. Far too many idiots in that group. Far too many in most groups, in fact. One has to recognize the chaff and ignore it in favor of the wheat to see sane, reasonable people. Which sucks because they are the cream in the milk, if it sank instead of float.

The primary intended benefit is for the animals (at least that's the hope; whether or not individual veganism makes a real immediate difference is sort of up in the air, but hopefully being vegan will help to build momentum towards less animal suffering in the long run), but some people are vegan for the environmental or health benefits (note that health benefits can be null and veganism would still make sense, though).

Not all clothes are animal-derived, by the way.

 

[squeek502]

It is, and I know it is. The catch is that far too many Vegans seem that dumb. And I admit that it's just that people are dumb. It's a great idea. On paper, it seems perfect.
So does Communism. Or Fascistism. Dictatorships. Democracy. The Open Market. Big Government. Small Government. No Government. Magocrasy. I could go on, y'know?
The point is, as good as it is on paper, the tough part is doing it in real life. So, I look for Environmental Sustainability. Not clear-cutting forests, but replanting trees if you cut them down. Not blinding using Solar because it's "Greener", but looking for power sources that are competitive with Nuclear Power that have less dangerous side effects when insane people get their hands on it. And of course, knowing what effect things have in the grand scheme of things and not outright saying that the fact that we went up 1 or 2 degrees globally in about 100 years is an atrocity, without saying why it is or when the last time this happened was and what happened then, as an example but not a outright proof.

Sneaky edit. For the record, I liked the quoted post when it simply said "It is and I know it is."

Food for thought: it takes more plant matter to produce meat than we get in return as food. Given that much of the meat we produce is not grass/pasture-fed ("a large percentage of grains grown in the US are used in animal feed, with 47% of soy and 60% of corn produced in the US being consumed by livestock."), this is a huge inefficiency and not sustainable at all.

 

[SatanicSanta]

Rice, legumes, vegetables, and fruit are pretty cheap; you don't need processed meat substitutes, pre-packaged vegan foods, or organic produce to be vegan. I spend an absurdly low amount of money on food. Knowing how to cook (or having a willingness to learn how to) helps a lot.

I mainly live off beans and rice anyway, but butter substitutes, and other small things like that are spendy.

 

[YX33A]

Sneaky edit. For the record, I liked the quoted post when it simply said "It is and I know it is."

Food for thought: it takes more plant matter to produce meat than we get in return as food. Given that much of the meat we produce is not grass/pasture-fed ("a large percentage of grains grown in the US are used in animal feed, with 47% of soy and 60% of corn produced in the US being consumed by livestock."), this is a huge inefficiency and not sustainable at all.

You liked it when I was cut off at the T of the second line. So jokes on you? Because I sure as hell didn't think you liked it then.
It is a good idea. On paper. Most things are.

It's a strong contender in the grand scheme of things. But I don't consider it a realistic option because we eat meat, for good reasons no less. Hence, I don't care if we eat meat or not. I care if we can sustain such things. And inefficient doesn't preclude sustainable.

 

[squeek502]

You liked it when I was cut off at the T of the second line. So jokes on you? Because I sure as hell didn't think you liked it then.
It is a good idea. On paper. Most things are.

I don't see the possible difference between 'on paper' veganism and 'in practice' veganism. You're already making a choice whenever you purchase or eat animal products. You'd just be making a different choice.

But I don't consider it a realistic option because we eat meat, for good reasons no less. Hence, I don't care if we eat meat or not. I care if we can sustain such things. And inefficient doesn't preclude sustainable.

Which good reasons are those? Tradition ('we have always done it') can't be one, as that allows for something like slavery to be justified. Health can't be one, as you'd be hard pressed to find a credible source saying that veganism is less healthy than non-veganism. Pleasure ('it tastes good') or convenience surely can't be one if you take animal suffering even a little bit seriously. There really are no good reasons for eating animal products.

The point I was making is that we can't sustain such things; inefficiency matters more and more as the population grows.

I mainly live off beans and rice anyway, but butter substitutes, and other small things like that are spendy.

Then eat less butter substitutes.

I won't deny it takes some effort, but it's certainly do-able.

EDIT: I apologize to the mods/everyone else for derailing this thread for so long.

 

[YX33A]

I don't see the possible difference between 'on paper' veganism and 'in practice' veganism. You're already making a choice whenever you purchase or eat animal products. You'd just be making a different choice.


Which good reasons are those? Tradition ('we have always done it') can't be one, as that allows for something like slavery to be justified. Health can't be one, as you'd be hard pressed to find a credible source saying that veganism is less healthy than non-veganism. Pleasure ('it tastes good') or convenience surely can't be one if you take animal suffering even a little bit seriously. There really are no good reasons for eating animal products.

The point I was making is that we can't sustain such things; inefficiency matters more and more as the population grows.


Then eat less butter substitutes.

I won't deny it takes some effort, but it's certainly do-able.

EDIT: I apologize to the mods/everyone else for derailing this thread for so long.

The reasons? Because for one, cooked meat has more nutrients then veggies, IIRC(and can't be bothered to look this up at 1:30 am unless booze is involved or given as a reward), and two, cows are insanely useful for more then just foods.
And just because we eat meat doesn't mean they have to suffer. But... Well, as our population goes up, so does the demands, and we haven't found a seriously viable alternative to Nuclear power... yet many people cite that they have. Cold Fusion is invented every 5 years or so, and debunked every time because it's bullshit and yet far too many people still don't realize it is and why it is.
And we've had much longer to find a real alternative to meat. So... I don't suggest not eating meat. I suggest eating Rabbit. Why the hangup on Cow? Rabbit is smarter for meat, but not so much for the byproducts we get from the Cow. And if we didn't get them from the cow, where can we find them all in one location? As strange as it is, the cow is pretty much the main reason Vegans have to accept that one has to kill and use some animals. Maybe it hurts for us, because we are human, and we have a very strong sense of empathy, but cows are too damn useful to be left in one piece. Let alone just bones and meat we eat.
Find another thing that can do everything on that list, and we can forget about killing cows. Heck, even a handful that do most would suffice. But it has to be as close to all in one as possible, otherwise, the cow still wins. Sad, but true. The cow is the secret ingredient in so many things it's insane. Even some Vegan sounding things are on that list. Imitation eggs? Cow is in it. Plant food? Cow. Charcoal? Cow.
I love the idea, but Vegan isn't gonna work. It is a great idea, but it's not a 1 size fits all solution. It's a fine step towards one, but still nowhere near enough.
And, above all else...

Calling vegans out for not being part of the solution to all world problems is not an argument against veganism.

I didn't say it was, or even infer it with that post. I didn't even say or infer they were part of the problem.
I said they far too often are idiots. And compared them to the idiot who called Vazkii rude for telling him to shut up because he didn't give a fuck. That's my issue with vegans. They need to just flat out SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT HOW MUCH BETTER THEY ARE FOR NOT EATING MEAT AND BEING NICER TO ANIMALS THEN THE REST OF US.

Seriously. It's my main issue with them. They need to learn the most basic advice the world also needs to learn. Not shutting up now and then, not Whetons Law, but something simpler...

Be Excellent To Each Other.

 

[squeek502]

The reasons?

1) "More nutrients" doesn't mean much. The only "meat-specific" vitamin (it's actually produced by bacteria, but is found in animal tissue) that vegans need to supplement for is B12, which is super easy/cheap to do.
2) Suffering is pretty hard to avoid in animal agriculture, especially on the scale we're currently doing it (I'd argue on any scale, but I doubt that'd go over well). See any of the factory farming exposés that are available online (Earthlings being the most well known [warning: very graphic]).
3) It'd be more useful to question which things in that cow picture don't have vegan alternatives, as the only thing I saw was medicine (and I'm not sure which medicine(s) it is exactly that we derive from cows, but I know that animal-derived medicines don't necessarily have alternatives). We have a million uses for the cow because we've been killing so many of them for so long, not the other way around. And, like I said, that picture does not imply that something like imitation eggs have to be made with cow blood (which I've never heard of, apparently it's used as a dye or something), but rather that we have so much cow blood available that we've tried to find any possible use for it (there are tons of vegan egg substitutes).

By the way, it's weird hearing someone tell a vegan that veganism isn't possible. Trust me, it is. I'm aware of all (or most, hopefully) of the vegan "gotchas" (bone char used to filter white sugar, etc) and I've learned how to avoid them as best as I can.

Be Excellent To Each Other.

Okay, but to embody the vegan you hate for a moment: now just extend that maxim to non-human animals, as they, too, are others. The problem I have with the "vegans need to shut up" sentiment is that, from my perspective, it's been pretty easy to be vegan, and it's weird to me that you can both recognize veganism as a 'great idea' and then be so fervently opposed to trying it. It's certainly easier and less prohibitive than committing to walking everywhere and/or changing your power source to use geothermal vents (and it also doesn't mean you can't do both of those and be vegan at the same time).

This'll be my last post on the topic. Again, sorry, everyone, for derailing the thread into oblivion.

 

[ThatOneSlowking]

Wow
Such vegan
Very derail
Much topic

 

[Yusunoha]

Wow
Such vegan
Very derail
Much topic
View attachment 11885

choochoo

 

[YX33A]

choochoo

So, we may see some RedPower releases in the future. Not that I care, since the TC 4.2 system is on my mind and actually matters to me since it's blurring the lines between tech and magic even more then usual.
And eventually the wall will shatter for the masses, as it did for me long ago, and people will see that Magic and Tech are just views of the same ideas. Except some Magic mods actually are utterly magical(or rather have features that are utterly magically and aren't shitty mods from the get go).