Recent Events Discussion (RED) Thread

[SynfulChaot]

I also am very concerned given the larger context and some of your wording, as it to me means "Reika is going to go along with mod interactions now, so we can do whatever we want to RC, and he has no right to complain". Even most of the people on the other thread who disagreed with me, people like TomeWyrm and SynfulChaot, agreed that deliberately going and subverting my mod is in essence giving me the finger.

I never recall saying that. Or alluding to it. Please do not speak for me unless you know how I feel about the subject.

I was around for that. It wasn't fun explaining to someone everyday why they could power everything with a magnetostatic.

You still could ... if you ran a bunch of them together. Yay for parallelization!

 

[Padfoote]

You still could ... if you ran a bunch of them together. Yay for parallelization!

I was directly referring to people saying one engine wouldn't run something when it used to. But yes, you are correct.

 

[SynfulChaot]

I think (?) this is what he meant.

Now *that* is part of what I feel on the subject, but that's not what Reika said. I really don't mind if people quote me, but I *do* mind if they quote me incorrectly. >.<

 

[Reika]

You still could ... if you ran a bunch of them together. Yay for parallelization!

No, shaft junctions have had limits for a long time.

Now *that* is part of what I feel on the subject, but that's not what Reika said. I really don't mind if people quote me, but I *do* mind if they quote me incorrectly. >.<

That is exactly the quote I was referring to, and I do not see another interpretation than "deliberately breaking someone else's mod is wrong". If you do not in fact feel that way, well...points for honesty, I suppose.

 

[SynfulChaot]

I interpreted it the same way as Reika. I guess I was wrong.

It helps to use direct quotes instead of assumptions.

No, shaft junctions have had limits for a long time.

Interesting. I was still able to fully power an extractor using just magnetostatics post-nerf.

That is exactly the quote I was referring to, and I do not see another interpretation than "deliberately breaking someone else's mod is wrong". If you do not in fact feel that way, well...points for honesty, I suppose.

To expand on that quote, I feel that hacking a mod's code without the author's express permission is wrong (outside of bugfixes and the like, of course). Note I said that it is 'wrong', not that they're giving you the finger. There's a difference. Also note I explicitly said 'code'. Not 'balance'. I also don't feel that doing things counter to aspects of another mod's design is wrong. I love the multitude of Thaumcraft mods and cross-mod interactions that 'subvert' parts of the main mod in fun or beneficial ways. Especially on aspects I don't care for like, say, node degradation with the node-in-a-jar (I hate that 'feature').

Do I think the original mod author is wrong for having aspects I don't like? No. Do I think that's the only way I should be allowed to experience said mod? Also no.

 

[Reika]

Interesting. I was still able to fully power an extractor using just magnetostatics post-nerf.

The magnetostatic nerfs and the shaft junction limits are about six months apart. When did you try?

Also, define "fully power"; the Extractor can be run on 65kW if you use it judiciously.

Note I said that it is 'wrong', not that they're giving you the finger. There's a difference.

I do not see these being different, but that is largely irrelevant to the discussion.

Also note I explicitly said 'code'. Not 'balance'. I also don't feel that doing things counter to aspects of another mod's design is wrong. I love the multitude of Thaumcraft mods and cross-mod interactions that 'subvert' parts of the main mod in fun or beneficial ways. Especially on aspects I don't care for like, say, node degradation with the node-in-a-jar (I hate that 'feature').

I hate that feature too, but that is not a "core design" part of TC. It is likely intended as a balancing aspect, but being able to move nodes losslessly changes little about native ThaumCraft aside from making it more convenient.

By contrast, unbounded power for RC would be like essentia fabrication from RF - something that has been suggested (and I think Technomancy(?) implemented it), but that can seriously unbalance TC - or the ability to get research via some other mechanism. Both of these would seriously alter the fundamentals of TC, and Azanor would be well within his rights to ask others to stop if they did that. (Granted, he may not care, but this assumes he does).

 

[SynfulChaot]

The magnetostatic nerfs and the shaft junction limits are about six months apart. When did you try?

Shortly after the mag nerf. I took bit of a hiatus from *playing* Minecraft not too long after that.

Also, define "fully power"; the Extractor can be run on 65kW if you use it judiciously.

Able to do all four aspects at full speed.

I hate that feature too, but that is not a "core design" part of TC. It is likely intended as a balancing aspect, but being able to move nodes losslessly changes little about native ThaumCraft aside from making it more convenient.

Perhaps Azanor feels differently than you and I on that. Just like you and I feel differently about aspects of RoC.

By contrast, unbounded power for RC would be like essentia fabrication from RF - something that has been suggested (and I think Technomancy(?) implemented it), but that can seriously unbalance TC - or the ability to get research via some other mechanism. Both of these would seriously alter the fundamentals of TC, and Azanor would be well within his rights to ask others to stop if they did that. (Granted, he may not care, but this assumes he does).

Many TC addons can seriously unbalance TC or make elements of it useless. But that's the thing. They aren't Thaumcraft itself. Once you start using mod addons you're purposefully subverting the initial intent and oftentimes balance of the mods in question. And you're doing it knowingly. And that's all that matters, I think. That you know you're not getting the 'vanilla' mod experience. A modmakers power, IMHO, should be limited to the mod itself (and APIs, of course). Will addon modmakers necessarily share your particular vision? No. But that doesn't mean said mod shouldn't be able to exist. It also doesn't mean that you must approve of said mods. But not all addon mods need to be approved, I think.

 

[Reika]

Shortly after the mag nerf. I took bit of a hiatus from *playing* Minecraft not too long after that.

OK, you never saw the more severe nerfs.

Many TC addons can seriously unbalance TC or make elements of it useless. But that's the thing. They aren't Thaumcraft itself. Once you start using mod addons you're purposefully subverting the initial intent and oftentimes balance of the mods in question. And you're doing it knowingly.

Though you know you have the addons, you do not necessarily know that a given feature is part of an addon. Speaking as the admin of a small server, if I had $1 for every time people asked me why something in TC was missing/not working, when said feature was part of Technomancy/TTKami/etc, I could probably pay for the next 6 months at double the RAM. I can only imagine that Azanor gets far more of the same.

A modmakers power, IMHO, should be limited to the mod itself (and APIs, of course).

Evidently we disagree on the "sphere of influence" of a mod, in that I see any mod's actions as within it and you do not.

It also doesn't mean that you must approve of said mods. But not all addon mods need to be approved, I think.

For a mod designed to do nothing but break your mod, assuming you cannot persuade the author to stop, the best you can do is refuse technical support. However, you likely know how negatively that ends, as it is very common for the author of the original mod to be painted as the aggressor.

 

[SynfulChaot]

Though you know you have the addons, you do not necessarily know that a given feature is part of an addon. Speaking as the admin of a small server, if I had $1 for every time people asked me why something in TC was missing/not working, when said feature was part of Technomancy/TTKami/etc, I could probably pay for the next 6 months at double the RAM. I can only imagine that Azanor gets far more of the same.

You can't fix stupid, Reika. Even when Azanor goes out of his way to request (but not demand) addon modmakers put their items in their own distinct tabs people still sometimes mis-attribute. No matter what you do some people will mis-attribute. There's nothing you can do about that. The best you can do is correct them or let others correct them.

Evidently we disagree on the "sphere of influence" of a mod, in that I see any mod's actions as within it and you do not.

Yes. Yes we do. I believe a modmakers sphere of influence ends at the extent of their code.

For a mod designed to do nothing but break your mod, assuming you cannot persuade the author to stop, the best you can do is refuse technical support. However, you likely know how negatively that ends, as it is very common for the author of the original mod to be painted as the aggressor.

Nope. You're under no obligation to support other mods. You only need to support your own to the extent that you decide and no further. Anyone that paints you the aggressor for not supporting something that's modded further or tweaked past your design is the one in the wrong.

 

[Reika]

You can't fix stupid, Reika. Even when Azanor goes out of his way to request (but not demand) addon modmakers put their items in their own distinct tabs people still sometimes mis-attribute. No matter what you do some people will mis-attribute. There's nothing you can do about that. The best you can do is correct them or let others correct them.

You may not be able to fix stupid, but you can take its tools away.

Anyone that paints you the aggressor for not supporting something that's modded further or tweaked past your design is the one in the wrong.

Whether or not someone is "in the wrong" matters little in the court of public opinion, where one's ability to be charismatic and convincing far outweigh their influence.

 

[SynfulChaot]

You may not be able to fix stupid, but you can take its tools away.

But when you're also taking away tools from everyone else that's when I feel one goes too far. Remember that when you try to idiot-proof something, the universe just creates a better idiot. And all the while the standard users suffer.

Whether or not someone is "in the wrong" matters little in the court of public opinion, where one's ability to be charismatic and convincing far outweigh their influence.

I think the court of public opinion shares my view on that particular thing. At least among the more educated crowd that frequents these here forums and the Reddit. The MCF forums, however ... but let's not talk about that dark place.

Oh. And I should probably note that in the court of public opinion, one's ability to be charismatic and convincing is their influence.

 

[Reika]

But when you're also taking away tools from everyone else that's when I feel one goes too far. Remember that when you try to idiot-proof something, the universe just creates a better idiot. And all the while the standard users suffer.

The idea is to find the right balance, taking into account relative numbers (sadly, idiots outnumber everyone else 500:1) and hardship endured. In my case, I deemed it acceptable for things like shutting out a few edge-case packs in favor of saving hundreds of hours, or with this topic, that noone really suffers from my mod keeping its integrity.
[/quote]

I think the court of public opinion shares my view on that particular thing. At least among the more educated crowd that frequents these here forums and the Reddit. The MCF forums, however ... but let's not talk about that dark place.

Oh. And I should probably note that in the court of public opinion, one's ability to be charismatic and convincing is their influence.

One need not tell the truth to be charismatic (Exhibit A: Politicians). Also, while these forums - reddit to somewhat lesser of a degree - see a higher proportion of knowledgable and reasonable users, they are still vastly outnumbered by the incompetent or unreasonable who cannot simply be ignored just because they are most active on their own forums, twitter, or places like somethingawful.

Also, the most dangerous people know this, and will use it to their advantage. Remember this guy?
http://i.imgur.com/wI1jstx.png

He knew full well the code he was adding was nonsense, and that it any (decent) modder would understand that it was fake. However, he also knew that 99.5% of players could easily be mislead into believing it did what it looks like, and the resulting nuclear firestorm of drama.

Additionally, even knowing better is no guarantee - I know this from experience. I have code in my mods to determine if it is running on my computer, used to lock out dev features from other computers. One other mod author - I am not going to name names, but they were on par with people like Mobius or Algorithm in terms of influence - mouthed off on twitter about how they found DRM in my code. They knew what they were saying was b*ll****, but it did not matter; their twitter followers ate it up, and the damage was done.
This lie is directly responsible for many of the rumors that still persist over a year later, and was the genesis of the tensions several major community members, including mod developers and pack makers, have against me - at least one of the RR team members directly referenced this when talking to me - and some of which still act upon those feelings. I would argue that this is quite rightfully a sore point.

 

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Yes. Yes we do. I believe a modmakers sphere of influence ends at the extent of their code.

I'm still gonna have to agree to (very strongly) disagree with this. Respecting a mod author's wishes was always a priority when I was making public packs. To do else is just plain rude, in my opinion. For example, if I were to ever play with RoC and Project E, I wouldn't put them in the same pack, because the mod author from RoC explicitly requests otherwise. I consider it to be respectful of the mod author.

However, that debate is rather pointless since neither one of us is going to change our positions any time before the entropic death of the universe or the theorized higgs-boson collapse, whichever comes first, so I'm willing to let the matter drop. I will, however, apologize for my tone and ad hominem attacks earlier, which were entirely uncalled for. How did that saying go again? "I may disagree with every word you say, but I will defend, to the death, your right to say it." - attributed to Voltaire

 

[Reika]

I'm still gonna have to agree to (very strongly) disagree with this. Respecting a mod author's wishes was always a priority when I was making public packs. To do else is just plain rude, in my opinion. For example, if I were to ever play with RoC and Project E, I wouldn't put them in the same pack, because the mod author from RoC explicitly requests otherwise. I consider it to be respectful of the mod author.

I do not ask for the two mods not to be used together. I have little interest in what mods you use together unless one of them is a direct attack.

 

[SynfulChaot]

The idea is to find the right balance, taking into account relative numbers (sadly, idiots outnumber everyone else 500:1) and hardship endured. In my case, I deemed it acceptable for things like shutting out a few edge-case packs in favor of saving hundreds of hours, or with this topic, that noone really suffers from my mod keeping its integrity.

Just know that that decision will earn you more detractors than followers and don't be irritated at us for disliking it, and sometimes your mods as well, on principle. Know that it's simply a reaction to your reaction. And you may say t hat noone suffers from it, but I disagree on that point.

One need not tell the truth to be charismatic (Exhibit A: Politicians). Also, while these forums - reddit to somewhat lesser of a degree - see a higher proportion of knowledgable and reasonable users, they are still vastly outnumbered by the incompetent or unreasonable who cannot simply be ignored just because they are most active on their own forums, twitter, or places like somethingawful.

That's true. One doesn't need to be honest to be charasmatic, but that doesn't mean they're not influential. And again I must strongly disagree. The voices of the knowledgeable and reasonable tend to prevail both here and on the FTB Reddit. I've seen people correct misinformation there far more than spreading it.

Also, the most dangerous people know this, and will use it to their advantage. Remember this guy?
http://i.imgur.com/wI1jstx.png

He knew full well the code he was adding was nonsense, and that it any (decent) modder would understand that it was fake. However, he also knew that 99.5% of players could easily be mislead into believing it did what it looks like, and the resulting nuclear firestorm of drama.

So don't accept it and ignore the idiot. Problem solved.

Additionally, even knowing better is no guarantee - I know this from experience. I have code in my mods to determine if it is running on my computer, used to lock out dev features from other computers. One other mod author - I am not going to name names, but they were on par with people like Mobius or Algorithm in terms of influence - mouthed off on twitter about how they found DRM in my code. They knew what they were saying was b*ll****, but it did not matter; their twitter followers ate it up, and the damage was done.
This lie is directly responsible for many of the rumors that still persist over a year later, and was the genesis of the tensions several major community members, including mod developers and pack makers have against me - at least one of the RR team members directly referenced this when talking to me - and some of which still act upon those feelings. I would argue that this is quite rightfully a sore point.

Actually I think what many modpack makers have against you is the same thing that I do. Your openly hostile stance towards many as well as your controlling nature surrounding your mod and mod policies. I know you're a great coder and have wonderful ideas and mods, but how you treat others is ... more unkind than I can respect.

I'm still gonna have to agree to (very strongly) disagree with this. Respecting a mod author's wishes was always a priority when I was making public packs. To do else is just plain rude, in my opinion. For example, if I were to ever play with RoC and Project E, I wouldn't put them in the same pack, because the mod author from RoC explicitly requests otherwise. I consider it to be respectful of the mod author.

Those are my views on things, yes, but I also respect a modmaker's wishes as well when creating packs, even when I don't agree with them. That's why I don't run RoC in any of my packs anymore despite being very intrigued by it.

However, that debate is rather pointless since neither one of us is going to change our positions any time before the entropic death of the universe or the theorized higgs-boson collapse, whichever comes first, so I'm willing to let the matter drop. I will, however, apologize for my tone and ad hominem attacks earlier, which were entirely uncalled for. How did that saying go again? "I may disagree with every word you say, but I will defend, to the death, your right to say it." - attributed to Voltaire

That's such a wonderful quote! I love Voltaire! Oh, and apologies accepted of course. ^.^

 

[Reika]

Just know that that decision will earn you more detractors than followers and don't be irritated at us for disliking it, and sometimes your mods as well, on principle. Know that it's simply a reaction to your reaction. And you may say t hat noone suffers from it, but I disagree on that point.

I can understand disagreement with or disliking of the rules, but that does not warrant many of the reactions I get, which include open hostility, dishonesty, and comparisons to 20th century dictators.

That's true. One doesn't need to be honest to be charasmatic, but that doesn't mean they're not influential. And again I must strongly disagree. The voices of the knowledgeable and reasonable tend to prevail both here and on the FTB Reddit. I've seen people correct misinformation there far more than spreading it.

Here and reddit are a tiny fraction of the community.

So don't accept it and ignore the idiot. Problem solved.

This is not the point. The point is that dishonesty can be used to great effect, and that user knew it.

Actually I think what many modpack makers have against you is the same thing that I do. Your openly hostile stance towards many as well as your controlling nature surrounding your mod and mod policies.

No. Not only did many of those opinions and rumors start before I put the rules in place, and, as I said, more than one person directly referenced that original author, but the people claiming "DRM", when pressed, refer to that code, not my policies, even now.

how you treat others is ... more unkind than I can respect.

?

Save for people who are openly hostile to me, there is noone I am unkind to. Blunt, maybe, but that is part of who I am and carries no malice.

Additionally, unlike many others, I do not hold grudges; the worst I do is "this person is known to be hostile to me, I will avoid them" or "this person is known to lie openly, be suspicious of anything they claim". If that behavior stops, I forgive. Case in point: Ryahn of the RR Team.

 

[HeilMewTwo]

Okay can we officially wrap this up now? We had an entire thread of debates, nothing new is going to be said and I can only see this devolving into personal attacks.

I'm looking forward to the new packs that have been announced, they look like very unique concepts.

 

[SpitefulFox]

I'm looking forward to the new packs that have been announced, they look like very unique concepts.

Is there a description of them? All I see in the news post is their names.

 

[HeilMewTwo]

Is there a description of them? All I see in the news post is their names.

 

[RavynousHunter]

Wait...FTB packs are getting trailers? Why am I imagining them in the style of a summer blockbuster action flick?

"In a world... *EXPLOSION* Where two old houses... *cue a classic Victorian-era room with the nobles of IC2 and BC are arguing* Are threatened by upstart neighbours... *Reika and Aidan look at eachother with shit-eating grins on their faces* Who will survive the culling of the mods? *soldiers of the Hats clan and Headcrumbs "celebrities" lie dead in a field* Who will become part...of the Trident? FTB TRIDENT, coming this April."