Recent Events Discussion (RED) Thread

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Celestialphoenix

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Tartarus.. I mean at work. Same thing really.
Then some leading community members such as LexManos teamed up with someone called "FlowerAdult", and started "Better With Forge". BWF was supposed to be a Better Than Wolves clone, but was never released. Under the 7 hour long stream where BWF was planned, LexManos constantly harassed FlowerChild. This is another reason I don't like Lex too much. FlowerAdult was probably some FTB/Forge community member hiding behind an alias.

Lex wasn't the only one in that stream- several other 'higher ups' in the FTB/forge team also took part.
(stream footage isn't live anymore, so I can't dig out names)

I'm not going to disagree with you, but it doesn't help that he and most of the people on his forums treat Forge the same way, even before the FlowerAdult fiasco.
I will be honest they [myself included] are highly critical of Vanilla, Forge and Forge's design- however almost all of it is somewhat well written with clear reasoning as to why they stand by their opinions.
Distinctly different from the verbal abuse and thinly veiled threats emanating from a non-insignificant number of Forge users.​
 

SynfulChaot

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Yes, but he isn't directly stealing their creations.

Correct. *That* action of theirs is *partially* unwarranted. I say that because, IIRC, the concept behind BWF is solid. Making a version of the mod that works with Forge. As long as the code and assets aren't ripped then there's no issue there, I don't think. FC doesn't have exclusive right to the concepts he uses in that mod.

I should expand my thoughts here. I see no more issue with someone recreating BTW under Forge with it's own code and assets than I do with anyone recreating older mods under current Minecraft versions. AKA BWF is no more 'bad' than, say, Project Red or ProjectE.
 

Democretes

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Lex tried to copy his mod, used 7 hours on harassing him, and later claimed to be innocent. And you think he doesn't have the right to be angry at the Forge team? And FlowerChild isn't constantly using Forge as an example for everything bad, but the Forge community is always saying that someone "is like FlowerChild".
I said pre FlowerAdult fiasco. I visited their forums a lot because I was interested in the mod. They about as nice to FTB, Technic, and Forge we were to them.
 
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Celestialphoenix

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Tartarus.. I mean at work. Same thing really.
FC doesn't have exclusive right to the concepts he uses in that mod.

Except he does.
His ideas. His concepts. His designs.
When you're producing a [near] identical copy it does not matter if the code was copied or rewritten, the end result is the same.
This is WHY we have patents
This is WHY we have copyrights
To protect our intellectual properties and assets.

I have nothing against loosely similar mods/concepts being created, just reproducing whole functions and content.
Changing and building upon ideas and concepts is natural development, and largely how a lot of creation comes into being.
(this is why I don't discourage mods which add their own windmills or mechanical power ect... its a similar concept, but done in a unique way)
 
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SynfulChaot

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So basically, FlowerChild had used hours, months and years on creating ideas, and balancing everything out. Then someone else basically copies all your ideas and balancing, but rewrites the code. Is that okay? No. It's still so morally bad that I can't describe it.

I disagree strongly. By that logic, Microsoft Office couldn't exist as it was 'copied' from Lotus. And Open/LibreOffice couldn't exist as it was 'copied' from Microsoft Office. Same with Windows. And OSX. And Apple's iOS. And Android. Sorry. That's just how the software world works. Copying of ideas happens constantly in the software world. Improving upon the ideas of others and adding competition. Without that, software would stagnate. Competition is needed.

Are they copying his code or assets? No. Then I see no issue with it if they're attributing the inspiration properly. And remember that this wouldn't even be a thing if FC didn't isolate his mod.

Again, I see it no differently than modders re-creating old mods under current versions. It's the same damn concept, yet you don't see people raking those modders through teh coals. If you're gonna hate on modders that care about compatibility, at least be consistent.
 

SynfulChaot

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So you are blaming this on FlowerChild!? You think that if I choose to drop Forge, you can do whatever you want with my mods?

If your mod became incompatible with the current running version, though it not getting updated or purposefully moving away from the platform, then I would see no ill in anyone trying to 'carry the torch' of the mod forward, provided it didn't copy code or assets. And also provided that they properly attribute the inspiration behind it. Again, that is what Project Red, ProjectE, BluePower, Remain in Motion, Funky Locomotion, and so many other liked mods are in the first place.

They were even decompiling the Better Than Wolves code during that stream to see how he did things.

Ok. *That* is ... hmm. To see how he did things. That's grey are because I don't know how, once you see the code behind it, how you can make your own code that doesn't include the code of the original. *That*, I think, was wrong and shouldn't have been done.
 

Celestialphoenix

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Tartarus.. I mean at work. Same thing really.
I disagree strongly. By that logic, Microsoft Office couldn't exist as it was 'copied' from Lotus. And Open/LibreOffice couldn't exist as it was 'copied' from Microsoft Office. Same with Windows. And OSX. And Apple's iOS. And Android. Sorry. That's just how the software world works. Copying of ideas happens constantly in the software world. Improving upon the ideas of others and adding competition. Without that, software would stagnate. Competition is needed
Yes, and there's a significant difference between fair competition, building off each others ideas and evolving forwards. This isn't what BWF was doing.
This is more like Bethesda making their own GTA using Rockstar's assets as a base, and renaming it Grand Theft Skyrim. (which would undoubtedly nail with with a lot of legal troubles if they actually did that)

Are they copying his code or assets? No. Then I see no issue with it if they're attributing the inspiration properly. And remember that this wouldn't even be a thing if FC didn't isolate his mod.

Actually initial versions used a lot of his code and graphical work.
 

SynfulChaot

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Yes, and there's a significant difference between fair competition, building off each others ideas and evolving forwards. This isn't what BWF was doing.
This is more like Bethesda making their own GTA using Rockstar's assets as a base, and renaming it Grand Theft Skyrim. (which would undoubtedly nail with with a lot of legal troubles if they actually did that)

Again, this is the attempt at a *port*, which I don't feel is wrong.

Actually initial versions used a lot of his code and graphical work.

In that case I think that BWF is wrong, but I still feel that someone porting BTW to Forge *isn't* wrong so long as they do it copying/ripping code or assets.
 
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Celestialphoenix

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Tartarus.. I mean at work. Same thing really.
but I still feel that someone porting BTW to Forge *isn't* wrong so long as they do it copying/ripping code or assets.
I'll reiterate my earlier point.
His ideas. His concepts. His designs.
When you're producing a [near] identical copy it does not matter if the code was copied or rewritten, the end result is the same.
This is WHY we have patents
This is WHY we have copyrights
To protect our intellectual properties and assets.

Redistributing [a port] without the modder's consent is still fundamentally wrong. You're still undermining the author's design and creative integrity. Essentially you're strongarming the original author out of his creation.

Also can I take a moment aside to thank everyone for keeping this heated discussion on topic without devolving into trolling/shouting/name calling ect...
Seriously, thanks guys [and girls]. Its brilliant that we can disagree like this yet still respect each other.
 
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SynfulChaot

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I'll reiterate my earlier point.
His ideas. His concepts. His designs.
When you're producing a [near] identical copy it does not matter if the code was copied or rewritten, the end result is the same.
This is WHY we have patents
This is WHY we have copyrights
To protect our intellectual properties and assets.

Redistributing [a port] without the modder's consent is still fundamentally wrong. You're still undermining the author's design and creative integrity. Essentially you're strongarming the original author out of his creation.

Also can I take a moment aside to thank everyone for keeping this heated discussion on topic without devolving into trolling/shouting/name calling ect...
Seriously, thanks guys [and girls]. Its brilliant that we can disagree like this yet still respect each other.

Again, let me bring up certain mods. Project Red, BluePower, Remain in Motion, Funky Locomotion, Immibis Microblocks, and Forge MultiPart all imitate what RedPower 2 offered after it fell behind and Eloraam left. She does not approve of the clones and actually hinted at trying to threaten legal action against at least one of them. Because they copy what RP2 was, does that make each and every one of these mods wrong? How about ProjectE? Xeno didn't want Pahi to update EE2 to current versions, so the makers of ProjectE tried imitating it as they desired to play it in current Minecraft. Again, Xeno didn't want to allow it. Does that make *that* mod wrong as well?

While these are examples of mods becoming outdated, I feel that BTW falls in the same category as it's not compatible with the current version of Forge, *forcing* incompatibility by *design*. This is akin to having a piece of software on Windows and telling people they can't create an imitation of it compatible with other operating systems (*points to GIMP vs Photoshop*).

Again, I don't feel that creating a port of BTW to Forge is any more wrong than the earlier mentioned mods.
 

SynfulChaot

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I don't like the RedPower2 clones, nor ProjectE.

Then don't use them. But that doesn't make their existence wrong. Doing the equivalent of taking your ball from everyone in the software world and telling them they can't ever play with it or anything similar again ... that's not how patents work, despite the constant attempt by certain parties to try to make it work that way.

Besides that, there are fundamental differences between those cases. Better Than Wolves is, and was in development. That the author is choosing not to use a certain API doesn't mean it's okay to steal his intellectual property. Better With Forge was actively trying to provoke FlowerChild. Streaming in 7 hours while harassing FlowerChild and decompiling Better Than Wolves makes it pretty clear that you are doing it to provoke FlowerChild. How would you feel if somebody took something you had worked on for years and made a straight up copy? How would you feel if at the same time as that happened, one of the facilitators were harassing you publicly in 7 hours, and publicly decompiled your source?

I believe that their behaviour towards him was abhorrent. And adding decompiled code to your project without the go-ahead of the original author of said code is equally so. But that's simply in the implementation of BWF. I, myself, would not use BWF for those very reasons. But if someone ported BTW to Forge with unique code and assets? I'd add it to my modpack in an instant. I love what it adds, but I don't think it's the be-all-end-all of mods.

And if someone copied my work to make it more compatible? I'd welcome that. I'd actually probably try to work with them so my own work was compatible in the first place. I'm not a fan of isolated works. Even if I wish for my work to be experienced in a certain way, I know that some will wish to do it a bit differently. You can't cater to everyone, after all. But I don't think it gives me the right to say that you *must* experience it that way and *only* that way. If people want to play differently, well ... more power to them, I guess. They're not my *target* audience, but that doesn't mean they're not *a* audience. Especially in a game like Minecraft. I think there's more than a bit of unwarranted hubris to make a *mod* purposefully incompatible. A mod of a game that's open to modding. That's trying to claim more right to uniqueness than the game you're modding in the first place.
 

Celestialphoenix

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Tartarus.. I mean at work. Same thing really.
Again, let me bring up certain mods. Project Red, BluePower, Remain in Motion, Funky Locomotion, Immibis Microblocks, and Forge MultiPart all imitate what RedPower 2 offered after it fell behind and Eloraam left. She does not approve of the clones and actually hinted at trying to threaten legal action against at least one of them. Because they copy what RP2 was, does that make each and every one of these mods wrong?
If they out and out copied wholesale concepts and ideas without changing or developing them to produce something new, then they're almost as bad. I doubt however they were created with the malicious intent of undermining and forcing out another artist. I'm somewhat dubious about the Redpower clones given the mod author broke off all contact and is therefore unable to say 'no' even if she wanted to.
I have nothing again reworking ideas, redesigning concepts, being inspired by ect... a 'BTW port' would have to be substantially different, and certainly not marketed as 'BTW port'

And if someone copied my work to make it more compatible? I'd welcome that. I'd actually probably try to work with them so my own work was compatible in the first place.
You've stated that you'd allow redistribution and modification. Fair dos.
Would you still allow it if the new author wanted to do something you fundamentally stand against?​
Also FC has explicitly stated multiple times that he does not allow others to modify/redistribute his work.

Even if I wish for my work to be experienced in a certain way, I know that some will wish to do it a bit differently. You can't cater to everyone, after all. But I don't think it gives me the right to say that you *must* experience it that way and *only* that way.
Actually it does. Design and creative integrity are vitally important concepts, far more important to FC than popularity and download count. The best experience is the one the artist envisioned. If a design is watered down [to appeal to a wider group], then the artist and the target audience ultimately lose out. This is why BtW is such a well designed mod, because FC didn't compromise his design for the sake of a 2nd/3rd audience.

Especially in a game like Minecraft. I think there's more than a bit of unwarranted hubris to make a *mod* purposefully incompatible. A mod of a game that's open to modding. That's trying to claim more right to uniqueness than the game you're modding in the first place.
Even if he didn't initially break compatibility (and still used Forge), it'll still become incompatible due to the fundamental design decisions FC made.
Not worrying about compatibility means more dev time available to build mod content, and a lot more freedom in what the content is and how its implemented. Also it's not the only mod who purposefully incompatible; MITE being a good example.
The fact remains every modder has the right to creative autonomy and uniqueness. If this means 'claiming more uniqueness than the original game' then so be it.

If you ever tried to tell a non-commercial artist that they must conform all their creations to the work of others to maintain a unified appearance, they'd tell you exactly where to shove it (any self respecting artist anyways). Yet within the MC modding community, doing precisely that is being held as some kind of ideal.
 
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NJM1564

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I'll reiterate my earlier point.
His ideas. His concepts. His designs.
When you're producing a [near] identical copy it does not matter if the code was copied or rewritten, the end result is the same.
This is WHY we have patents
This is WHY we have copyrights
To protect our intellectual properties and assets.

Redistributing [a port] without the modder's consent is still fundamentally wrong. You're still undermining the author's design and creative integrity. Essentially you're strongarming the original author out of his creation.

Also can I take a moment aside to thank everyone for keeping this heated discussion on topic without devolving into trolling/shouting/name calling ect...
Seriously, thanks guys [and girls]. Its brilliant that we can disagree like this yet still respect each other.

You can't copyright an idea or concept. Only how they are implemented.
If you could we would only have one fast food place. One videogame. One car.

Human society is based off of mimicking others. Taking what they had an making it better. That is called progress.
If we couldn't out and out swipe the ideas off others the only mod we would have is buildcraft.
Taking ideas and directly coping them might be rude but depending on the circumstances it can be anything from a tribute to out and out evil.
What lex did to FC evil. Strait copying Better than wolves just to be mean.
What Inubus and others are now doing to Lex making new forgecraft equivalents. Lots of lols.
Making new versions of EE2, Redpower, and even parts of zycraft. Kinda a gray aria. Not merely gray as it's being kinda ok and kinda not bit also gray in that some people think it's ok and others don't.
But copyrights have nothing to do with it.

If any guidelines are to exist they must be set within the MD dev community.
A statute of limitations before a abandoned mod can be picled up by others. Requirements that the original dev be given credit.
 

SynfulChaot

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If they out and out copied wholesale concepts and ideas without changing or developing them to produce something new, then they're almost as bad. I doubt however they were created with the malicious intent of undermining and forcing out another artist. I'm somewhat dubious about the Redpower clones given the mod author broke off all contact and is therefore unable to say 'no' even if she wanted to.
I have nothing again reworking ideas, redesigning concepts, being inspired by ect... a 'BTW port' would have to be substantially different, and certainly not marketed as 'BTW port'

Then it depends upon the intent. Again, yes, BWF was made with ill intent and did many things wrong. There are reasons I wouldn't use such it even if it were to be completed. But if one was made solely in the interests of compatibility? That isn't the intent to force out the artist. The artist is still the artist and his work isn't diminished. His mod will probably still be more stable and have more of a strong theme to it as it wasn't created to imitate but to create in the first place.

And ports all have to start somewhere. At launch such a think would be quite similiar to the original. But once it's out, *that's* where the mods would start to diverge as each heads in their own directions. BTW will continue to be BTW and the port would start to come into it's own as it's own entity.

You've stated that you'd allow redistribution and modification. Fair dos.
Would you still allow it if the new author wanted to do something you fundamentally stand against?​
Also FC has explicitly stated multiple times that he does not allow others to modify/redistribute his work.

At that point, it's no longer my mod. What happens to it is no longer my concern. If people like *my* mod then they'll still play it. If they like the other better then they obviously didn't like my vision. It'd probably cause me to look at it to try to figure out why my idea wasn't as good for them as the alternative. Things don't evolve in a vacuum, after all.

Actually it does. Design and creative integrity are vitally important concepts, far more important to FC than popularity and download count. The best experience is the one the artist envisioned. If a design is watered down [to appeal to a wider group], then the artist and the target audience ultimately lose out. This is why BtW is such a well designed mod, because FC didn't compromise his design for the sake of a 2nd/3rd audience.

Great! It's designed best to stand alone! There's no problem with that! Many mods are best experienced by themselves to get the full impact. Multiple mods can both enhance and detract the experience of each.

The problem comes when you tell people that it *has* to stand alone. That you have to experience it *this* way and *only* this way. That is showing waaaay too much hubris, IMHO. Even Greg and Reika don't go so far.

Even if he didn't initially break compatibility (and still used Forge), it'll still become incompatible due to the fundamental design decisions FC made.
Not worrying about compatibility means more dev time available to build mod content, and a lot more freedom in what the content is and how its implemented. Also it's not the only mod who purposefully incompatible; MITE being a good example.
The fact remains every modder has the right to creative autonomy and uniqueness. If this means 'claiming more uniqueness than the original game' then so be it.
If you ever tried to tell a non-commercial artist that they must conform all their creations to the work of others to maintain a unified appearance, they'd tell you exactly where to shove it (any self respecting artist anyways). Yet within the MC modding community, doing precisely that is being held as some kind of ideal.

Simple. He just doesn't care about *making* it compatible. But purposefully go out of his *way* to make it *in*compatible is another story entirely. He could do what he does with that mod on Forge. Forge would not detract from it or prevent him from creating it. And if other mods didn't play nice, well that's not his concern and doesn't have to be.

People aren't telling him, or at least *shouldn't* be telling him that he must conform his creation to the wills of others. Just as they don't, or shouldn't, to any other modder. Each modmaker has their own vision of the game, that doesn't need to be sullied by others. They still get their full creativity autonomy and uniqueness. But. Going out of your way to make things incompatible *and* telling them they can't make anything similiar just doesn't fly.

If you're going to make things incompatible then be prepared to have competition.
 

ljfa

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There are also be practical reasons why FlowerChild wouldn't want compatibility with Forge. Modifying Minecraft classes directly is easier and less tedious than using ASM and faster on startup.
But it breaks compatibility with all mods that alter the same class. That's the reason why Forge and FML even exist. They make mods compatible with each other.

FlowerChild is significantly cutting down the work he has to do. The price he pays is incompatibility with Forge but that's not as problematic for a total conversion mod like BTW. Many Forge mods would upset its balance anyway.

Making a ripoff off BTW for the sake of angering FlowerChild is reprehensible imo.
On the other hand, ProjectRed was not created in order to upset Eloraam (however I do feel like it's a bit too similar to it in some details).
 

Celestialphoenix

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Tartarus.. I mean at work. Same thing really.
Simple. He just doesn't care about *making* it compatible. But purposefully go out of his *way* to make it *in*compatible is another story entirely. He could do what he does with that mod on Forge. Forge would not detract from it or prevent him from creating it. And if other mods didn't play nice, well that's not his concern and doesn't have to be.

Its well within his right not to use forge. He could do it on forge, but doing so would slow him down and waste a lot of his time. Using forge [or any API] requires coding in a specific way, the way forge runs is vastly different to the way FC codes- so using it would significantly detract from the mod.
If [when] other mods don't play nice, it will end up being his concern because of the constant demands to make it his concern, and the additional tech support from people doing it anyway.

Even if it could work on a technical level, the mod is still conceptually incompatible at a fundamental design level. Essentially its a unique game in its own right, that runs off the minecraft engine.

But if one was made solely in the interests of compatibility? That isn't the intent to force out the artist.
Even Greg and Reika don't go so far.
Actually there was someone who threatened Reika with a port of RoC to allow Minetweaker perms. This is essentially the same concept as what you're asking- undermining the artist's integrity and design decisions.
I can assure you Reika wasn't happy about it either. (source- the 'really idiotic things people say about modded MC' thread)
 
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SynfulChaot

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Its well within his right not to use forge. He could do it on forge, but doing so would slow him down and waste a lot of his time. Using forge [or any API] requires coding in a specific way, the way forge runs is vastly different to the way FC codes- so using it would significantly detract from the mod.
If [when] other mods don't play nice, it will end up being his concern because of the constant demands to make it his concern, and the additional tech support from people doing it anyway.

Even if it could work on a technical level, the mod is still conceptually incompatible at a fundamental design level. Essentially its a unique game in its own right, that runs off the minecraft engine.

Just becaus someone 'demands' that you do something, it doesn't mean that you have to. Modders are not slaves to their users. He could keep only caring about his mod stuff and leave cross-mod compatibility to other people if they care enough to.

Basically it wouldn't really harm him in any way. He just does it to continue to try to stick it to Forge. And all he's hurting is players that are interested but unwilling to give up on everything else in modded Minecraft.

Actually there was someone who threatened Reika with a port of RoC to allow Minetweaker perms. This is essentially the same concept as what you're asking- undermining the artist's integrity and design decisions.
I can assure you Reika wasn't happy about it either. (source- the 'really idiotic things people say about modded MC' thread)

While I disagree with Reika's stance, any who threaten him are just crazies. I just don't use Reika's mods for that very reason. But they differ in that at least with Reika's mods you *can* play with others. He just requests that we not modify them in any way because we must play his way or no way. That stance always irritates me. Yes, I understand that modders have a vision for their mod. But saying a mod is inviolable when it's a mod of another game just strikes me as far too much hubris.

If that mod had been released, I would have made SquidAPI disable it.

So respond to a mod you don't like by adding 'DRM' to your own. That won't fly well, Squid. More prominent modders have done it before in much more prominent mods and it earned them nothing but hate. GL if you do it, but it'll lose you fans.
 

SynfulChaot

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Hate isn't a problem. There was a period where I recieved daily harassment, so I think I can stand some DRM complaints. Also, I already have DRM in SquidAPI.

Shame. I do like your mod, but now I must dislike it and recommend against using it on principle. DRM has no place in modded Minecraft, IMHO. It's not the place of one mod to tell people they're not allowed to use another.
 

Eruantien

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I realize that y'all are having a nice time discussing permissions and whatnot... but let's try not to generate any more drama again? Sure, let's get the facts straight, but let's not accuse people of anything.

Carry on! Tallyho etc.
So respond to a mod you don't like by adding 'DRM' to your own. That won't fly well, Squid. More prominent modders have done it before in much more prominent mods and it earned them nothing but hate. GL if you do it, but it'll lose you fans.
Not to mention that it wouldn't even work without SquidAPI installed...
 

ljfa

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If that mod had been released, I would have made SquidAPI disable it.
I have to admit that I once thought about making something like this (I'm not the one who @Celestialphoenix is referring to though). But it would not be a straight up copy but I would implement my own ideas where possible. Would you block it if the only thing it had in common with RoC was the torque/speed mechanic?

I won't do it because I respect Reika and I would probably recieve bad reputation for being a copycat, and I'm not experienced enough to pull that off.