Pulverizer is better than Macerator In GregTec

[raiju]

If you are careful you can fire projectiles out of a zeppelin, mining laser included. I wouldn't recommend scatter mode though

I've never used redpower floating platforms, can you put dispensers on them? If so you could surely make a mobile fortress armed to the teeth with fire charge cannons

 

[Bluehorazon]

Was this added to gregtech after the 1.4.2? I had 15~ overclockers in my IC2 machines on my beta pack A server but haven't started using IC2 properly yet. (will be checking changelogs after posting this)

Oh... well it depends. I think you can use more. Depending on your config. My Stack-Size is 2 so I can't use a lot of them since I normally reserve a slot for transformer-upgrades (so technically I could do 6, since I do not need the storage although it is nice) . I think the default one is 4 so you can still put up to 16 Overclockers in, although I think 15 are enough to only need 1 Tick to macerate stuff. And even then the Macerator costs less energy compared to the Pulverizer (although the old conversation-rate of 2:5 is propably not true any more, it is more like 4:5 now). I haven't played with lots of overclockers lately I only build 4 pieces for the compressor, since you need to compress a lot of stuff for Gregs, but the old ratio was every Overclocker did 50% more EU/t and 30% less time, which caused only a slight increase in EU per process, since although you need more EU/t you require less ticks for a process, so a unchanged process required 800 EU and full speed only was a bit about 1.000 EU ( I think you required almost 3 MFSU to power it ). I think these numbers changed a bit, since well^^ Overclockers were much too strong and the IC2-Wiki has upgraded values.

The problem could be that you need an internal storage as soon as you need more EU/t as the machine can store (which is only 800 EU) and in that case you are limited to 12 Overclockers, which again would not require you to increase the storage. And honestly 12 Overclockers require 563 EU/t, so you need 18 Batboxes to power a single Macerator... not really sure if that is worth it, so you might want a transformer-upgrade which will also limit you to 12 Overclockers. And with 12 Overclockers you need 6 Ticks per Process, which makes the machine eat 3.400 EU per Process, while the Pulverizer would use 1.000 EU. So the Pulverizer equals a Macerator with 2 Overclockers, in which case the Macerator requires 200 Ticks, while the pulverizer is always 100 Ticks.

So with the nerf to the Macerator from 625 EU/process to 800 and the Overclocker-change the pulverizer wins in every situation. I should have checked the numbers first, the only advantage of the macerator is, that you propably want an IC2-Enet anyway for tools and without GregTech it is no big deal building a macerator. Also without GregTech you can still create 1-Tick-Macerators which only consume about 5.000 EU per Process. The problem is however that they require 10 MFSU to run, or tons of storage-upgrades. 64 Storage-Upgrade would only be enough to keep the Macerator running for 2 Minutes.

But well since it was mentioned, the Rotary Macerator beats the pulverizer easily. It manages a process in 0,6 seconds and only consumes about 200 EU in the process. And the recipe is 7 refined Iron and an advanced machineblock added to the macerator... so not really expensive. The only downside is that you have to use it permanently or at least for very large amounts. But on the other hand in normal IC2 it is no big deal to add a solarpanel to create EU for the heating part (well in case of the rotary macerator it is propably more like accelerating).

 

[Greyed]

Well, a rotary macerator (and the IC2 induction furnace) are best treated like a Railcraft boiler. You warm it up once and never turn it off because once warmed up it won't draw a lot of power to stay warmed up.

 

[raiju]

Thanks for the detailed explanation, to be detailed yes I do generally mean transformers in the upgraded IC2 machines - rotary macerator, singularity compressor, etc with transformer upgrades to HV and the rest transformer upgrades high enough that they aren't redundant. The only one we don't upgrade is the electric furnace as the induction furnace can't use upgrades (and therefore can't go HV) making it an annoyance and slightly slower than a HV overclocked electric furnace. Then again as I recall there are more use in the induction furnace recipes now for me in mindcrack, so might get it anyway.

Power isn't a big deal late game to us - 2 of us are power junkies and we share a base so we usually end up filling MFSU's/AESU's. I like to go nuclear while the server admin loves solar panels. He will probably start making solar panels tonight on our server in fact now that he has access to a 1500c industrial blast furnace (gregtech) We honestly aren't too worried about efficiency at that point, more speed and convenience.

 

[Korenn]

I personally think the Industrial Grinder is an awesome machine. Sure it's a nightmare to set up and keep supplied with power, but once you have one it'll be the preferred method of processing valuable ore blocks. It doesn't feel overpowered either, due to needing other materials (like mercury) to get the maximum yield. Plus I really like the multiblock structures. (Although modders could think about adding more shapes than just the massive blocks )

The pulverizer is the starting machine in current Mindcrack pack, but it's not the endpoint as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Malkuth]

How about you check your presumptions at the door? Not sure what message you read, but it wasn't mine.



That it is. Now look at my message again. Note what I didn't say in that message? Right, anything about my way of playing better than any other. In fact, I ended with the following sentiment, I'll highlight the important bit since you missed it completely.

"So in the grand scheme of things, a fully upgraded macerator is, to me, a waste of materials and power. So, no, the macerator isn't better on some objective scale."

Now why did I write that message? I was responding to Malkath's message which was quoted, where he specifically stated that a fully upgraded macerator, "Blows a pulverizer away." Not only that but he said in a later message, "Oh and the actual title is the Pulverizer is better then the Macertor.. In which case it is not."

IE, I wrote to point out that when people have different priorities which is better is a relative term, not one that can be declared with such fervor as displayed my Malkath. So that makes your response rather ironic, don'tcha think?



MJ has plenty of engines which won't blow up.



I disagree. Having played both I find that both are about the same when it comes to maintenance.



It amuses me that you quoted my entire message yet are somehow able to argue against things I never said. I didn't say that MJ was the best power grid. I was counting Zaik's assertion that MJ is a PITA compared to EU by pointing out one rather common complexity that EU has which MJ doesn't.



Yeah, kind of the point of my message and why I ended with the notion that an objective scale is irrelevant. The implication being that each person's experience is subjective and, as such, what is "best" varies wildly absent any criteria.




Yes, you did. See above where I quoted you as saying is is better and here where you are declaring that speed is the defining characteristic.

It doesnt matter guy.. What I said is a fully upgraded macerator is FASTER then Pullverizer which it is.. Do the test yourself.. Hell A macerator with only 8 overclockers 1 Tranformer and 1 energy is faster ORE PROCESSING then a pullverizer..

If you like the pullverizer better thats fine.. But to sit here and say a pullverizer is faster then an upgraded Macerator is totally silly...

I have both in my base.. Its pretty simple to tell which one Proecesses ores faster.

You need to read more carefully. Everyone in this thread was getting along until you came in.

And you keep sitting here saying that I said this and that.. Defining that the its better because of speed... YES.. To me SPEED IS BETTER.

To you its better for whatever reason you think.. We all have different opionions.. My opinion throughout this whole thread was based on SPEED..

I never denied that.. So stop trying to make me look like the bad guy just because you come in this thread thinking your all high and mighty.

Actually I base it off of speed and the fact that it can be upgraded and grow with you.. Thats why I think its better. Cost or not.

Hell post number 3 or 4 I wielded to the fact that a Non GT game with both Machines the TE machine is cheaper because of the Rubber issues you might have starting off in an early game. The TE is easier and cheaper to build.

 

[Antivyris]

====Note, numbers fixed 1/6/2013, numbers changes====

Figured I'd get some actual math in here since a lot of seems to be based on opinion or anecdotal evidence.

Number in ()'s for Pulverizer are attached TE Steam Engines. Number in ()'s for the Macerator are over-clocker's installed.

Note, on Macerator(4) and (5) I expect you wouldn't be so crazy as to attach a single generator. You can see some very vivid discrepancies. As far as Ore per Coal, the statement made earlier that you will spend less time on wood collection in the beginning if you user a pulverizer is semi-correct, but only if you use charcoal as a fuel source. Using coal just means more/less time mined, depending.

Out of the box, realistically both engine/machine setups are about equal in resource, however there is a very important point to make here. If you use TE's resource distribution, You will have to spend mining time at both lvl 45 and lvl 11-20 for the TE stuff due to gold, where with a IC2 setup you can pretty much stay at lvl 45, but this may or may not be off-set by rubber-tree searching depending on seed. It's fair to say both are about equal in time on average, but individual results will vary.

As you can see, a pulverizer out of the box with a single engine is 2x faster and and 60% more efficient with resources. At 2 overclockers, your macerator is now .98% faster than a pulverizer, however you offset this with using ~20% more fuel than a default macerator, and nearly double more fuel than a pulverizer.

It appears that essentially, resource speaking, considering cables and upgrades, both setups are going to be essentially equal on resource usage up to a point, since as soon as you get one of these machines the future upgrades take less time. Also, GT is a moot point as TE is going to add in a GT-style choice for the pulverizer.

An important case to note, however, is with a macerator you will not be able to automate it very quickly due to constraints of wooden pipes and redstone engines. TE machines simply need placed next to an inventory, and this allows you to more easily walk away from your machine with a hopper, while you may have to baby the macerator.

However, this is not the whole story. A macerator is useless without an electric furnace. Let's look at the actual combo of a macerator/furnace vs an induction smelter. While some may argue this is not fair, I would argue it is as all three are indeed tier 1 machines.

Now, here we see TE shine. It takes 5 Generators, a 5x overclocked furnace, and a 5x overclocked macerator to get near the speed of an induction smelter with two engines. I am not considering power-wastes at this point, since we can feed both systems exactly the amount of coal needed within the range of internal buffers for all devices. Adding in another set of over-clockers and a third generator wil get you the process 2x faster than an induction furnace, however again I want to bring up that at this point you are using 15 blocks of space (ic2) over three blocks of space (te).

I think it's quite clear here, while you are limited by gathering your fuel source or by space(no clue why space is an issue, but heck, I don't judge), sticking with the TE machines will indeed be a better use of your time and resources, while in an environment where you no longer worry about gathering fuel you can then go with the IC2 machines for the speed upgrades.

And before anyone starts going with the geo-thermal start debate, the magmatic engines in TE are their equal in MJ in almost every way.

Side Note: going forward, don't always assume everyone uses Tin for lava cells. At least all of us on the DW20 pack probably use Aluminum cans for vanilla liquid distribution.

Also, to the speed issue, Since it takes 15 blocks in IC2 to equal three blocks in TE, you could add in three sets of furnaces and it would take much more infrastructure in IC2 to match the speed. So pure speed alone, the IC2 setup wins in the very end, but till then you are almost better off using all TE machines to create that final setup.

edit: Numbers changed as I over-did the over-clockers, numbers are now in line.

 

[Malkuth]

Figured I'd get some actual math in here since a lot of seems to be based on opinion or anecdotal evidence.

Number in ()'s for Pulverizer are attached TE Steam Engines. Number in ()'s for the Macerator are over-clocker's installed.

Energy/t Cycle(t) Energy In Time(s) Ore/Coal
Pulverizer (1) 4.0 400.0 2.0 10.0 8.0
Pulverizer (2) 4.0 400.0 4.0 5.0 8.0
Macerator (0) 2.0 800.0 10.0 20.0 5.0
Macerator (1) 3.0 560.0 10.0 9.3 4.8
Macerator (2) 5.0 392.0 10.0 3.9 4.1
Macerator (3) 8.0 274.0 10.0 1.7 3.6
Macerator (4) 13.0 192.0 20.0 0.7 3.2
Macerator (5) 20.0 134.0 20.0 0.3 3.0

Note, on Macerator(4) and (5) I expect you wouldn't be so crazy as to attach a single generator. You can see some very vivid discrepancies. As far as Ore per Coal, the statement made earlier that you will spend less time on wood collection in the beginning if you user a pulverizer is semi-correct, but only if you use charcoal as a fuel source. Using coal just means more/less time mined, depending.

Out of the box, realistically both engine/machine setups are about equal in resource, however there is a very important point to make here. If you use TE's resource distribution, You will have to spend mining time at both lvl 45 and lvl 11-20 for the TE stuff due to gold, where with a IC2 setup you can pretty much stay at lvl 45, but this may or may not be off-set by rubber-tree searching depending on seed. It's fair to say both are about equal in time on average, but individual results will vary.

As you can see, a pulverizer out of the box with a single engine is 2x faster and and 60% more efficient with resources. At 2 overclockers, your macerator is now 22% faster than a pulverizer, however you offset this with using 18% more fuel than a default macerator, and 48% more fuel than a pulverizer.

It appears that essentially, resource speaking, considering cables and upgrades, both setups are going to be essentially equal on resource usage up to a point, since as soon as you get one of these machines the future upgrades take less time. Also, GT is a moot point as TE is going to add in a GT-style choice for the pulverizer.

An important case to note, however, is with a macerator you will not be able to automate it very quickly due to constraints of wooden pipes and redstone engines. TE machines simply need placed next to an inventory, and this allows you to more easily walk away from your machine with a hopper, while you may have to baby the macerator.

However, this is not the whole story. A macerator is useless without an electric furnace. Let's look at the actual combo of a macerator/furnace vs an induction smelter. While some may argue this is not fair, I would argue it is as all three are indeed tier 1 machines.

Energy/t Cycle Energy In Time Cycle/Coal
Induction Smelter (1) 4.0 320.0 2.0 8.0 10.0
Induction Smelter (2) 4.0 320.0 4.0 4.0 10.0
IC2 Combo (0) 5.0 930.0 20.0 22.2 5.0
IC2 Combo (1) 7.0 651.0 20.0 10.5 4.8
IC2 Combo (2) 12.0 456.0 20.0 4.4 4.1
IC2 Combo (3) 20.0 319.0 30.0 1.9 3.6
IC2 Combo (4) 32.0 223.0 40.0 0.8 3.2
IC2 Combo (5) 51.0 156.0 50.0 0.4 3.0

Now, here we see TE shine. It takes 2 Generators, a double overclocked furnace, and a double overclocked macerator to get near the speed of an induction smelter with two engines. I am not considering power-wastes at this point, since we can feed both systems exactly the amount of coal needed within the range of internal buffers for all devices. Adding in another set of over-clockers and a third generator wil get you the process 2x faster than an induction furnace, however again I want to bring up that at this point you are using 9 blocks of space (ic2) over three blocks of space (te).

I think it's quite clear here, while you are limited by gathering your fuel source, sticking with the TE machines will indeed be a better use of your time and resources, while in an environment where you no longer worry about gathering fuel you can then go with the IC2 machines for the speed upgrades.

And before anyone starts going with the geo-thermal start debate, the magmatic engines in TE are their equal in MJ in almost every way.

Side Note: going forward, don't always assume everyone uses Tin for lava cells. At least all of us on the DW20 pack probably use Aluminum cans for vanilla liquid distribution.

Thank you well done post.. I agree.

I think the confusion comes in when we add GT to the mix.. So if your using Mindcrack then The original poster is totally correct. But when using direwolf.. Your test says it all.

 

[Malkuth]

Oh and one last thing. LOL.. Said it before.. Speed should cost you something.. SO its totally reasonable to conclude that the more overclocker you have the more Energy your going to suck up. I really didn't think this was an issue, but I always asumed at this point in the game it doesn't matter.

If im overclocking my machines.. Which lets face it Im doing it to all of them, the energy system has to grow with you too. And the energy consumption gets higher..

At this stage of the game, I don't think it matters.. Were pretty much got so much resources at this stage that power should not be even a consideration. IC2 power scales and works within the IC2 system..

Buildcraft pretty much works for everything. Never denied that either.

 

[Antivyris]

Thank you well done post.. I agree.

I think the confusion comes in when we add GT to the mix.. So if your using Mindcrack then The original poster is totally correct. But when using direwolf.. Your test says it all.

Agreed with that, but since TE is adding a GT friendly recipe for the smelter and the furnace, you're going to see them still a bit equal. Sadly, the Factorization ore-doubling process can be a good work around. Especially if you use the TE ore creation, you can get lead and silver pretty quickly. My current dw20 map I'm actually doing factorization off the start, so far it's actually not any harder or easier than the others. Knowing new dispenser mechanics can be key.

 

[Malkuth]

Agreed with that, but since TE is adding a GT friendly recipe for the smelter and the furnace, you're going to see them still a bit equal. Sadly, the Factorization ore-doubling process can be a good work around. Especially if you use the TE ore creation, you can get lead and silver pretty quickly. My current dw20 map I'm actually doing factorization off the start, so far it's actually not any harder or easier than the others. Knowing new dispenser mechanics can be key.

Ya I have a feeling thats whats going to happen.. They will bring TE up with GT to equal things out and forget factorization. Im not sure how many people use factorization.. I use the barrels lol. But I think your dead on about that.

I love GT by the way.. I have nothing against it. The Power and high tier stuff is amazing...

Oh and I think if you build things correctly in factorization you can triple or quadruple ores.. Not sure though like I said never used its machines.

 

[Antivyris]

Oh, I know about the 3x to 5x, it's just usually people are so focused on teh 3x/5x part that they overlook it actually has a balanced, not so bad 2x process. It's a little bit more space to setup, but all in all it's not that bad actually. As a whole it's actually already GT style balanced, since it takes 9 diamonds to start the doubling, but after that and a little RP or BC piping, it's automatic and can get a decent speed. Sadly, barrels is about most know about the mod, and have never even experienced piston-shoulders.

 

[Malkuth]

Oh, I know about the 3x to 5x, it's just usually people are so focused on teh 3x/5x part that they overlook it actually has a balanced, not so bad 2x process. It's a little bit more space to setup, but all in all it's not that bad actually. As a whole it's actually already GT style balanced, since it takes 9 diamonds to start the doubling, but after that and a little RP or BC piping, it's automatic and can get a decent speed. Sadly, barrels is about most know about the mod, and have never even experienced piston-shoulders.

Ya you can't blame people though.. Feed The Beast is overloaded with mods I never used.. Maybe bits and pieces like barrels and stuff.

 

[TruculentMC]

8 ways to get Glowstone without going to the Nether:

Villager trades (Priest)
Village Wizard tower
Witch drop
Secret IC2 recipe
Scrapbox
Centrifuge
Mystcraft
Twilight Forest

 

[SilvasRuin]

As far as Ore per Coal, the statement made earlier that you will spend less time on wood collection in the beginning if you user a pulverizer is semi-correct, but only if you use charcoal as a fuel source. Using coal just means more/less time mined, depending.

That would be my statement. To clarify, I think using Coal as fuel directly is wasteful considering it can be converted to Coke at a 1:1 ratio (which takes a fair amount of set up and then time per fuel) to get much more mileage out of it, and of course there's the Industrial Diamonds and Carbon Plates. Sticking with Charcoal first is an investment, one I personally think is very much worth it.

Side Note: going forward, don't always assume everyone uses Tin for lava cells. At least all of us on the DW20 pack probably use Aluminum cans for vanilla liquid distribution.

Also me. I actually forgot those aluminum cans existed. Once Xycraft finally has its own machines, Aluminum might wind up with more significant uses, but for now I guess it doesn't matter.

 

[mackf]

If you are careful you can fire projectiles out of a zeppelin, mining laser included. I wouldn't recommend scatter mode though

I've never used redpower floating platforms, can you put dispensers on them? If so you could surely make a mobile fortress armed to the teeth with fire charge cannons

is it just me or is the up and down controls in the zeppelin bugged in the current mindcrack pack?

 

[BanzaiBlitz]

Noting that the original intent was comparing a Pulverizer to the Macerator, neither feels quite right to me. For inital startup, it also HIGHLY depends upon how well your first mining trip goes. I have had a single trip result in 9 diamonds before I even return to the surface after the first trip. Immediately have the goodies to generate a full factorization setup? The rest becomes meaningless.

In the wonky debate we're following, top efficiency would really be in Factorization utilizing routers. This is of course barring funkytown in GT, but we'll assume default DW20 pack. By time counts, IC2 will win. By cost/production lines, TE can take the cake. And for those like myself that try to plan EVERYTHING with an eye down the long road, Factorization cannot be rivaled, that is IF you get enough goodies for all requisite stages in the chain which results, in this regard, with top total value in the end. I look at fire & forget as higher value so I can wander off to farm, research, beat up trees or livestock, etc.

I'll never understand why there is such grumpy people about this or that being more valuable. If you value time most, it really has no point debating against someone valuing results most.

Also, just to obfuscate things yet further, try looking at ALL the recipes each machine can produce. Silk touch a diamond block and shove it in a grinder! Gravel stacks in a rock crusher! Scrap box creation and deployment! Sneaking rich slag off cheap ore onto high end dusts! Tree farm with mob grinder granting infinite chain minium stones!!!

The best results truly come from merging approaches anyway. Some recipes suck harder than an F5 tornado while others are, for lack of anything more succinct, bogglingly amazing. Doesn't it seem more sensible to throw out ideas you've taken to using and why rather than trying to meaninglessly trying to convince someone else your way is better than theirs?

 

[raiju]

Love all the emoticons BanzaiBlitz

is it just me or is the up and down controls in the zeppelin bugged in the current mindcrack pack?

From what I can tell they don't work yes. Simply just use the camera to control, forward to accelerate and backward to slow down/reverse. Also if you're inexperienced longfall boots may literally be a lifesaver.

 

[Strubinator]

What about the GT industrial grinder? 300%+ yield on some things, including bonus dusts. Crazy expensive to build and maintain, but still helps in the long run.

 

[TruculentMC]

Factorization is neat but the 20 minute cycle time on the Crystallizer combined with the large amount of blocks needed to run the whole ore processing line is a big turn-off for me. I find it is good for Barrels, Pocket Crafting Table, and the Slag Furnace for your first few ores... but that's about it. Routers are pretty cool but not always easy to use and expensive compared to other item handling systems.

Also, and this is a limited data set, but I ran 11 full loads of gravel through a Rock Crusher -- that's 99 stacks -- and ended up with around 7 gold bars and 0 diamonds. Does anyone know what the actual drop rate is supposed to be? I didn't see a config option for it nor any documentation on the RailCraft wiki.