Project E and Reika's Mods

[ljfa]

It's a different story if PE wants to go ahead and deliberately break RoC by specifically adding EMC to the items

 

[TomeWyrm]

This bears repeating

Reika.

Stop. You can't fix everything, and you certainly can't fix stupid. You also can't win this one. In fact, it's like thermodynamics - you can't possibly break even.[/COLOR][/COLOR]

Walk away from the fight before you end up walking away from the community.

If somebody uses a combination of mods to break their server, well that's a shame. But it's on them, and you as a modder shouldn't care. You're going to have crossmod interaction. I've been there, it sucks, but you have to take it on the chin and move on, because ultimately it doesn't matter. Getting into a cold war over balance issues isn't worth it, because balance is subjective and the game is a sandbox. And if the owner of that sandbox wants to cover it in jet fuel and set it on fire, that's their decision to make.

*sigh* assumptions

And the first is well within Reika's right as its his mod and his balance. You're entire point applies to both sides of the coin.
Theres a skill difference between getting something to work, and brute forcing it for a singular item. And it still circumvents full automation.
Also;
If you've never done it, how can you claim its tedious?
Note the emphasis on raw resources? Raw. Resources. Not the processed materials. Once you start dealing with processed materials you start undermining the knowledge/understanding/engineering based tiering system.
You mentioned the importance of defaults quite a lot when talking about the Tome. Just a pointer that none of that is in by default, and actually requires a tonne of config/JSON editing to make it work (significantly more involved that changing a default setting). While its still an issue, its far less of an issue than something which would be far more open to everyone.

(and I don't think those tungsten bees et al would be in any public modpack- something tells me Reika wouldn't grant or continue to allow permissions)

Which was responding to and quoting this comment of mine

I'll fully admit I haven't made your materials (Other than HSLA... which doesn't really count ) in a legit world yet, so I could be missing details, but I have yet to see any particularly exploit-laden jumps or loops. That they exist is a bit of a given with a mod as large as yours, but unless someone is clever or obstinately lazy I'm pretty sure they're going to manage a "slow but repeatable" production line for their first ingots. All Project E does to "skip" is let them speed that process up to skip over the tedious transition period as they obtain enough of New Material to upgrade their power system. But if I'm way off base here I'm way off base.

Yes it does, which is what we're trying to say. One author is trying to affect another's work, we're saying that's not kosher.
Not really. Barring random influence, Minecraft is extremely deterministic. If you do something, you can repeat it. Infinitely. Might not be quick, might not be easy. But if I want to I can probably make stacks of bedrock ingots using industrial coils (and probably shaft junctions, and flywheels... maybe with a trip through ElectriCraft to bypass the engine spam restriction) charged by DC engines, or some similar "subversion" of the intent of RoC. This will also take an absurd amount of time (and I do mean ABSURD) and involve ingenuity and engineering above and beyond what would likely be required to do it the "right" way. If it didn't waste an absurd amount of time, and cause obscene amounts of lag I'd be tempted to do the whole mod with infinite sources of energy like DC and Hydro. Because it's probably still possible, just not easy.
Because I have investigated his mods and done similar things before. He has tiered infrastructure, which when you go up a tier usually needs to be replaced. This is INVARIABLY TEDIOUS. All physical power nets suffer from this. I don't NEED to play with Reikas mods to know that upgrading all the shafts is going to be tedious breaking and replacing of blocks.
Your definition of "raw resource" and mine are apparently different. Reika's Raw Materials are Bedrock Ingots, HSLA Steel, Sintered Tungsten Ingots, Jet Fuel, and the like. Those are first-tier processed materials if you want to get technobabble-laden. But they are what basically EVERYTHING in the mod is built with, which makes them "raw materials" for the purposes of discussion. They are ingots and liquids, not crafted components. Ingots are ALWAYS raw resources for me. That is the point of ingots. They are useless except as ingredients, despite the fact that it takes a processing step to make them. The alloys in Thermal Expansion, Foresty, Tinker's Construct, EnderIO, Forestry, IC2, and the like are ALSO raw materials to me.
I could easily publish JSON files for Gendustry or any other customizable mod to make that just as easy as flipping a boolean in another config file. Ease of creation isn't the same as ease of replication. Defaults are defaults and are the only thing we should be debating on or with, because "the user changed stuff" means it's the USER'S PROBLEM.

Reika's rights, and any modder's rights, only exist as far as the boundaries of their own mods. No modder has the right to tell others how to run their own mod.

(Emphasis mine)
Precisely exactly this. This is not exclusive to Reika. This goes for EVERYONE. Your authority ends at the boundary of your own code. If someone else wants to accommodate you, that is THEIR decision, and YOUR privilege. A privilege that can be revoked. See the KingLemming quote above

This is pretty much a stalemate; by those same rights P:E and ModTweaker could trample over Reika's right to demand autonomy and independence. Similarly P:E oversteps its boundaries when it includes another mod's unique items.
The question remains- what is the best way to handle this conceptual incompatibility? (For both devs)

Internal blacklisting is somewhat a last resort, and especially if the other devs are actively trying to subvert said blacklist- then thats a volatile road that nobody wants to go down.

Why is kinda why Reika asks other devs [such as the Mod/MineTweaker teams] not to subvert his design; negotiation is a far less painful route then blunt force.
Though I think KL might be right in dropping the issue being easier for one's own peace of mind- given the overall relentlessness of the modding community; it will happen sooner or later, and the resultant game of whack-a-mole becoming a significant time sink and not an enjoyable one.

No this is NOT a stalemate. The ony mod author that is currently requesting something in another authors mod is Reika. That request has been refused (as is every author's right). The only two courses are to completely drop it, or add in code to Reika's Mods (probably DragonAPI). Please for the love of god don't do the second one Reika. That will be a PR nightmare for no tangible benefit.

Which is what he TRIED to do, and Project E wouldn't let him.
That is the most flawed piece of logic I have ever seen.

This post is FULL of misinformation. Reika was using the Project E API to do something the authors no longer wish to have work the same way. He did NOT do this entirely within his own mod, and "what's good for the goose is good for the gander" is perfectly acceptable and, more importantly, FAIR logic. If Reika can demand something of another mod author, then other mod authors can demand things of Reika. Which is NOT something I support by the way, on either side. What one mod does can affect another, but what one mod does should remain THEIR decision. Period.

He added that code. They are working around it. A hack by anyone's definition.
The difference being that giving Thaumcraft aspects to RoC's items doesn't destroy RoC's balance perspective. Adding EMC does. And if a mod author asks Azanor to not include aspects on items in their mod, he doesn't. This is called respect. Project E doesn't have any, it seems.
I don't get why this is a thing in the first place. If you want to have a challenge, play with RoC. If you want to play post-scarcity, play with Project E. Those tend to be mutually exclusive desires.
You have the right to use the mod/code as is. If you don't like it, don't install it in the first place. However, demanding Reika change his stance on EMC to cater to your own personal desires? That's about as self-entitled as it gets, outside of welfare.

No. Just no. He utilized an API. That API is changing. The issue for Reika is that the new API no longer lets him blacklist his items from another mod using that mod's exposed interface.
Also the users/devs thing? The Project E devs are keeping the choice in player hands. That's all they're doing here.
You're being self-contradictory here. If I want to use EE3 or Project E with RotaryCraft, I should be able to. Without being blocked from using one mod by another author. The code as-is lets the end user add EMC values to RotaryCraft. Reika is trying to prevent that.

Reika hardcoded in something to prevent Project E from altering his code. Project E is hacking, and I do use the term advisedly, to try and bypass that protection.
Just to clarify, Project E is attempting to replicate EE2. It can do that without RoC's items having EMC. It doesn't need RoC's items to have any EMC value. It can run along just fine without any RoC items having EMC value. Attempting to do so after being explicitly told 'no' is not just hacking, it is just plain rude.

NO. No-no-no-no-no. Read this quote by someone that knows what they're talking about please:

Reika is using the ProjectE API to set the EMC for his items to zero, effectively blacklisting them. He is not hacking anything.
But this is what SinkillerJ wants to do:

Mods that attempt to modify EMC values in any way, adding, removing, etc, are automatically added to a config file where the user can deny that mods permission to do so. Ideally two config options per mod, allow modify self, and allow modify other mod id's.

because

At the end of the day the user/pack author has the final say, I understand that some mod authors may not like how ProjectE interacts with their mods but using the mod is a choice. I'm simply attempting to protect the user from Gregtech situations, forced changes to other mods that the user may not want.

No hacking involved there either. Just that the user is able to intervene if some mod changes (its own or other mods') EMC values.

Apologies for the whitespace. I'm trying to keep parts of this visually separate














--- Now for stuff in THIS thread!

OK, major clarification here, because there is a lot of misinformation/misunderstandings.
First, here is a rough timeline:

I get reports of people using PE to skip RC progression, and the damage resulting from doing this. This was mainly in the form of server admins complaining to me that their server worlds had been severely damaged by players who got RC items too early, and mainly consisted of demands for config options to disable them/nerf them. After some confusion - as my initial suspicion was usually that they had modified something themselves - it becomes clear the players in question used Project E to shortcut RC progression. All but four servers had the tome enabled, exacerbating the problem. On three of the four remaining servers, the players got the first unit of material through brute force, and on the last, it was given to them by another user, under the guise of being able to look up its recipe in NEI (they claimed it was not working on their end).
I go through the Project E source and find that Project E has an IMC-based "register custom EMC value" function, and that zero-value IMCs are effectively a blacklist. This was detailed in the comments of the code, and was thus intended functionality, not some exploit.
Due to the IMC's system being ItemStack based (and thus needing a new message and entry for every damage value of every item), this resulted in several thousand IMC messages, which is unsurprisingly bad for performance.
In light of this, I ask for an expanded system that does not necessitate this number of messages. This request goes over a month without reply.
Lacking a reply, I blacklist all of my items from Project E in v4, using the all-value system. Loading times reach about 10 minutes.
I strip down my handlers to blacklist only core items; loading times return to normal.
I get a reply, saying two things: One, that the IMC system was never designed for blacklisting capability, and that it is impossible to make a more general based system. Neither are true, the former of which for the reasons I described, and the latter of which being demonstrably false through things like my own handlers.
A couple months later, Project E removes the blacklisting system entirely, saying they need to rewrite their registries.
The registries get rewritten (though remain very similar internally), but blacklisting support never re-appears.
Around the time time, Kolatra finds EMC values on several of my custom-production items, including RC machines and CC crystalline stone. The rest of the Project E team swears that only things in the vanilla crafting table have EMC values calculated.
I inquire about this, and request the support be re-added, as it is clear that even non-entry items are getting EMC values. Met with a rather strong lack of enthusiasm, I offer to do it myself.
A debate ensues about the need for blacklisting in RC.
It is made clear that a blacklist, if it ever gets re-added (unlikely), will be overrideable with configs, under the argument of "player choice trumps all".
I ask again, trying to explain my problem. Several others agree also try to explain, including @kolatra, the only ProjectE team member who has ever touched my mods, as well as others like @frogfigther and @1M Industries.
The response is flat denial, and a threat is made (not by sinkillerj, but by another PE member) to specifically add EMC to my items.
One user gets extremely hostile, and I quote it here for the "stupid things people say" thread. People misinterpret it to think it was the PE team's responses I am posting it for, and the debate ensues.

Two major distinctions here.
One, yes, they can rewrite their system and change support levels at any time. That is within their right.
However, the fact they only did so after I started blacklisting things, and used the argument that it was never the intention of the system to allow that - when the code indicated otherwise - leads to suspicions of "bad faith".
Two, the threats to add EMC to my own items are not acceptable. That is not within the purview of their project, and is something they would have to devote time for specifically for the purposes of breaking RC.
Several users here have stated that this is acceptable, that "teaching a lesson by making things worse" is defensible behavior.
It is not. It is immature and unproductive, and only serves to engender further hostility. I would never and have never done that, and I expect others to do the same.
Retaliatory behavior for no personal gain, with the only intent being to harass and/or penalize is not the kind of behavior one reasonably expects and requires of a reasonable adult.
Say what you want about my policies or the justification for my wanting to lock down my items. However, if you then take that disagreement and use it as a foundation for an argument that boils down to "I don't like X, so doing things Y, Z, A, and B about it are acceptable, even if I would normally condemn them", you are being either dishonest or are letting your personal biases override your capacity to behave fairly and rationally. It is essentially the same as saying "Dishonesty, hostility, and so on are normally unacceptable, but if they are being used to ends I agree with, then that is fine with me".
Finally, Project E remains the only "exploit" system I know of that can completely break RC, and has no means in either mod to stop it, and the only one where the author has effectively refused any leniency:
Minetweaker and Modtweaker's authors have agreed to leave my mods alone, and the former's author has expressed willingness to add hooks to replace my custom handling when it is convenient for him.
mark719 (of MagicCrops) has agreed to leave my mods alone.
MagicBees, ExtraBees, and Gendustry have agreed to leave my mods alone.
CraftingManager added hooks to help me blacklist my mods.
MooFluids and MystCraft have systems for blacklisting fluids.
GregTech has agreed to leave my mods alone.
Minechem does not allow for fabrication of my items.
ProjectE, arguably the most powerful of all, and the most likely to be abused....nothing.
Also, for those claiming I break other mods - though I do have handing for several other mods, not once have I ever had another mod author come to me and say that I was breaking their mod, nor would I totally refuse to work with them if they did. While I would try to work out some agreement rather than totally removing a given item or feature - especially if it was popular - I will definitely listen to and act on their wishes.
Also, I will never ever simply throw crash code if these mods are installed, whether or not they break RC. At the worst, I would log a console warning (and with RC, one of those handbook alerts) and refuse support and/or reject all balance/exploit complaints. That said, I would rather fix the actual problem and avoid that outcome, as noone wins in that scenario.
Finally, for those saying that this is not worth my time:
I spend rather little time on these sorts of things, maybe an hour a week, and likely less. That is an acceptable cost for the gain, that being less hostility and - crucially - fewer rumors and whisperings, that, as I have said before, can and will do major damage if left unchecked.

*sigh* Some clarifications to your clarifications.
3 is false and was false. You didn't research deeply enough. It only requires the meta value if that value denotes a separate item. Not "damage" META.
5. It brought your load times up by nearly 30 minutes (28 IIRC) on my reasonably high-end machine with all the mods that used this IMC system. I shudder to think what it would have done on my old machine.
6. You did fix your mistake.
7. This is likely an artifact from MozeIntel's original code. This project has seen multiple authors. Even if it was intended that you could blacklist items by the current authors, the obvious intent now was not to remove compatibility for an entire other mod.
10. That should not be possible. But I do not have the coding knowledge to investigate the cause of this.
13. Yes, it does. That's what nearly every comment in this entire thread has been saying.

Yes, you blacklisting your ENTIRE MOD brought the problem to their attention. They either missed it, forgot it, or didn't think it would be an issue... until you MADE it into an issue Reika. Hanlon's razor: Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. Nobody can keep an entire large code base in their head at all times it is more easily explained by "they forgot and were later made aware that this could be an issue" than "they did this deliberately"

The threats to add EMC to Reika mod items is PRECISELY within the purview of the project. That is LITERALLY THE POINT OF THE MOD. Change thing A into "energy" that you can then convert into thing B. That's what EE3's DynEMC system was designed to do automatically. That is why Project E has the ability to add EMC values. That is, quite literally the whole point of the project existing. While it may not be the most harmonious outcome, it is a perfectly expected response to what you have been doing Reika. I would do something similar if you complained that my mod's jet fuel being compatible with your mod's jet fuel breaks your mod. Which I know you don't register your gating materials in the forge dictionaries. The point is that something MY MOD does breaks YOUR MOD'S balance. If Jet Fuel is integral to my mod, I'm well within my rights to not remove it. Or maybe my mod lets you harvest bedrock more easily than RoC. Does this upset your balance? If so? Well... that's the peril of cross-mod interaction. You can only balance within your own mod, or if your vision of balance meshes with the vision of another mod author. Nowhere does it say you should, and nobody gives you the right to, force your balance on anothers' work.

Say what you want about my policies or the justification for my wanting to lock down my items. However, if you then take that disagreement and use it as a foundation for an argument that boils down to "I don't like X, so doing things Y, Z, A, and B about it are acceptable, even if I would normally condemn them", you are being either dishonest or are letting your personal biases override your capacity to behave fairly and rationally. It is essentially the same as saying "Dishonesty, hostility, and so on are normally unacceptable, but if they are being used to ends I agree with, then that is fine with me".

Please provide an example, because judging by the context you're missing the point. Because I at the very least am not saying "I would normally condemn" being able to get raw materials after I could already obtain them. Any examples that are EASIER than that I only provide as examples of how directed this issue appears and strange your focus on this issue is when there are other options that are worse. I can cause this same issue with a dozen other mods, and yet you're only having an issue with one. This is odd and inconsistent.

ProjectE is far from the most powerful of them all on the subject we are currently speaking. It always requires the same amount of material to make the same amount of something else. Everything else that allows you to directly blacklist via a non-config option is indeed different from Project E.
Magic Crops doesn't have (or didn't) user-configurable crops. The only way I know of to use Magical Crops would be a custom recipe mod.
MagicBees, ExtraBees, and Gendustry have agreed to leave my mods alone. (Gendustry provides user-configurable options which are blank on your mod items by default. Precisely like Project E)
MooFluids and MystCraft have systems for blacklisting fluids. (If it's a config and not automatically populated with your mod fluids/items then it's identical to Project E)
GregTech has agreed to leave my mods alone. (This one is similar to the Magical Crops. None of his stuff touches yours without adding a custom recipe mod.)
Minechem does not allow for fabrication of my items. (Good to know)

So the only real comparisons are Gendustry, AgriCraft, MooFluids, and MystCraft. All of which don't touch your mod by default but do not (as far as I know) have explicit blacklists for your mods. Which is IDENTICAL TO PROJECT E. By default your items that use custom processing steps have no EMC. Blank. Nothing. They can't be accessed using the Tome. They can't be placed inside a condenser, relay, or transmutation table/tablet. As far as PE is concerned your stuff that doesn't use vanilla smelting or crafting? DOES NOT EXIST UNLESS THE USER MAKES IT EXIST.

As for the rest of your post: Yes that is what Project E was doing until you abused their system (in their eyes). They were accommodating you, they were working with you to try and make both parties happy. But the situation soured. I would assume because removing a mod entirely from Project E was not the idea of the blacklist system in the eyes of the author. They tried to "work out some agreement rather than totally removing a given item or feature". One that is so popular it's the whole reason the mod was reborn! You just wouldn't meet them in the middle or express a reason they would accept as valid for your wishes. They then exercised their prerogative as the author(s) and said "nope. No more blacklist". Your further attempts to get that functionality back exasperated them to the point that they were jokingly considering adding the thing the players can do themselves and putting it in as default, still fully configurable by the mechanics that currently exist.

"Finally, for those saying that this is not worth my time:"
No, at this point what you've done is piss off the Project E developers and quite a few members of the community. You have ENGENDERED hostility towards yourself and your mods, you have STARTED rumors and whispers. You have further cemented your image as a mod author that is "My way or else", is abrasive, and not willing to work with others.
There is such a thing as bad PR, and you're certainly creating it now. That is why KingLemming is saying stop. That is why I am saying stop. That is why SynfulChaot is saying stop. What we see is you sabotaging your reputation over a battle that you will NEVER WIN. You're fighting against user choice. This is acceptable inside the confines of your own mod (if not always appreciated), it is completely unacceptable inside the confines of another person's work. Which is what the EMC system is. It is FULLY contained within the mod, and only touches upon yours because you have items and blocks and that's what Project E affects.

If I add a Time Torch, and it affects your machines... that's not me changing your mod, that's my mechanics affecting your mod by nature of their operation. If I add a "lucky block" or "grab bag" mechanic that grabs from the entire registered items with a specific blacklist and it gets your stuff, that's not me changing RotaryCraft. That's my mod affecting your mod because of its nature. If I add in an AoE machine repair amulet or spell to work on my machines and then let it work on the other machines that can fail (explosively) or be damaged such as GregTech and your machines. The exclusion of your machines is an obvious and blatant break from the purpose of the item. Such is EMC being blacklisted from being usable with your mods. I can use EMC to convert GregTech machines, and Thermal Expansion machines, I can use it to create Alumite from TiCo, and basically anything else in Minecraft... except Reika's stuff. That is a glaring omission and by letting it start for reasons that they don't think is sufficient, they start down the slippery slope. Now if you request that specific ChromatiCraft items be blacklisted because obtaining them can permanently halt progress in your mod or corrupt world saves? They might be willing to listen. But you have been given MULTIPLE essays on why RotaryCraft being blacklisted in a non-configurable way is counter to the mod's vision/purpose, and your reasonings for basing that decision on are at least very easily debatable, if not outright provable as false.

 

[CoolSquid]

What about discussing how we can solve this situation rather than finding people to blame?

We know that Reika won't accept that all his items get EMC values. We know that the ProjectE guys won't let Reika blacklist all his items. Maybe we should try to find the golden mean?

 

[psp]

What about discussing how we can solve this situation rather than finding people to blame?

We know that Reika won't accept that all his items get EMC values. We know that the ProjectE guys won't let Reika blacklist all his items. Maybe we should try to find the golden mean?

He just accomplished more than every other post in this psychological debate combined.

 

[goreae]

@TomeWyrm firstly, that is an insanely long post. Color me impressed.

Speaking of colors, the blue text is extraordinarily difficult to read in the dark theme.

 

[TomeWyrm]

Oops, sorry. I'll change it.

The issue CoolSquid is that there is no middle ground. The options are "blacklist Reika materials from EMC" or "do not do that".

The best thing for everyone involved is to drop this whole kerfluffle entirely. Let the user do what the user wants to do. Reika has already stated in multiple places that he does not provide support for modified copies. Stick to that. User choice *is* king. But that doesn't mean you have to provide support. If people break stuff that is quite literally their fault. People will continue to break stuff until there aren't people anymore. Attempting to combat that at every turn by making stuff less enjoyable for legitimate users is why certain kinds of DRM are so reviled. It doesn't do what it is stated to do, and instead buggers up the experience for legit users.

Having said that, I will continue to point out flaws in this argument as long as everyone else is willing to keep bringing it up. There have been good points raised on this issue on both sides, and interesting ideas. But the core assumptions upon which this campaign was based are falsifiable and that is why I am still on this topic. I don't want Reika's mods to keep getting relegated to an ever-shrinking niche because he doesn't want to play a reasonable game of ball the way the entire rest of the community (near enough) does as common practice. The mods have a lot of potential, and would be much more popular if every interaction wasn't "my way or GTFO". Modpacks aren't built like that anymore, and seeing an author destroy the reputation of their mods like Greg did is sad.

 

[CoolSquid]

The issue CoolSquid is that there is no middle ground. The options are "blacklist Reika materials from EMC" or "do not do that".

If you mean technically impossible, you're wrong, and if you mean it's impossible for them to agree on a middle ground, you might want to ask them instead of speculating.

User choice *is* king.

It's not. There's a reason the modder is handling the code. The modder knows best about his/her mod.

seeing an author destroy the reputation of their mods like Greg did is sad.

Reika isn't destroying his reputation. He's maybe restricting his userbase a bit, but a medium sized group of dedicated users is better than a huge group of undedicated users. Someone refuses to use his mods? That's their issue.

I really wanted to avoid getting into drama-filled debates... >.<

 

[Padfoote]

I really wanted to avoid getting into drama-filled debates... >.<

This is the absolute worst thread for that.

 

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You know... I don't think this is ever going to end well. I'm just... dismayed at the behaviour of the people at Project E. The lack of morality involved in deliberately making another person's mod function in a way other than how it was intended, against the strong objections of the creator, is just plain rude.

Any sane person would have an 'opt out', where a mod author can say "I don't want my mod to be involved in this". And respect that. And hey, if that means that mod author's mod gets less use because people don't want to play with it because it opted out... that's on him. But to not only NOT offer such an option, but to go out of your way and refuse any possible suggestion of that being an option, is... in my personal opinion, immoral, unethical, and just... rude.

I cannot fathom the line of reasoning that would make it okay to significantly alter another person's mod without their permission. You are injecting code into the same environment that significantly alters the functionality of someone else's mod, against their objections. Most uncool.

The argument that the end user/pack dev has the final say is WRONG. There's these things called 'EULA' and 'Terms of Service' that restrict that. The code author has final say as to what happens to his code. Period.

I would just prevent my mod from loading up in such an environment. Sure, the pack loads just fine, just that my mod doesn't load with it, if I were the mod author. Not crashing people, not corrupting worlds, not blowing things up, just 'you cannot play with my toys if you do not respect my wishes'. But that's just me.

 

[SpitefulFox]

I'm a little blown away that there are apparently server owners out there that install Project E and then complain about people bypassing progression. >.>

 

[SynfulChaot]

You know... I don't think this is ever going to end well. I'm just... dismayed at the behaviour of the people at Project E. The lack of morality involved in deliberately making another person's mod function in a way other than how it was intended, against the strong objections of the creator, is just plain rude.

They're not altering RotaryCraft. They're not changing the way the mod works. They simply took away a method to allow full-on blacklisting that removes user choice. Nothing more or less.

Any sane person would have an 'opt out', where a mod author can say "I don't want my mod to be involved in this". And respect that. And hey, if that means that mod author's mod gets less use because people don't want to play with it because it opted out... that's on him. But to not only NOT offer such an option, but to go out of your way and refuse any possible suggestion of that being an option, is... in my personal opinion, immoral, unethical, and just... rude.

It's not the job of any mod author to be obligated to code in blacklists or configs if they don't want to add them. All mod design is up to the creator of *that* mod and noone else. If Project E doesn't want to enable blacklisting then they should not be obligated to. This doesn't make them immoral or unethical in any way. It's not up to other mod authors to help you balance your mod. This goes for any mod out there.

I cannot fathom the line of reasoning that would make it okay to significantly alter another person's mod without their permission. You are injecting code into the same environment that significantly alters the functionality of someone else's mod, against their objections. Most uncool.

There is no code injection occuring. There has never, in this instance, been code injection occurring. RotaryCraft is not being altered, in any way, shape, or form. No functionality is being changed. Please read into what is occurring in this instance.

The argument that the end user/pack dev has the final say is WRONG. There's these things called 'EULA' and 'Terms of Service' that restrict that. The code author has final say as to what happens to his code. Period.

False. EULAs rarely hold up in court and Terms of Service only apply to services. That being said, most of us respect the wishes of mod authors, even if we don't agree with them. I disagree with Reika's ModTweaker policy so instead of doing it anyways I just don't use RoC.

That being said, I do think that users should be able to configure things to their liking so long as if they shift things past what's in the configs themselves then they should be clear to their users that that is the case. Minecraft is everyone's sandbox, not just Reika's.

I would just prevent my mod from loading up in such an environment. Sure, the pack loads just fine, just that my mod doesn't load with it, if I were the mod author. Not crashing people, not corrupting worlds, not blowing things up, just 'you cannot play with my toys if you do not respect my wishes'. But that's just me.

Please tell me you realize that this can cause world corruption issues if your mod with that setting existed in the world before the addition of the other mod. Please. Do not do this!

 

[TomeWyrm]

If you mean technically impossible, you're wrong, and if you mean it's impossible for them to agree on a middle ground, you might want to ask them instead of speculating.

It's not. There's a reason the modder is handling the code. The modder knows best about his/her mod.

Reika isn't destroying his reputation. He's maybe restricting his userbase a bit, but a medium sized group of dedicated users is better than a huge group of undedicated users. Someone refuses to use his mods? That's their issue.

I really wanted to avoid getting into drama-filled debates... >.<

First when you've got "is on blacklist" the only other option is "not on blacklist". Period. It can be on a greylist, or a whitelist, or use another mechanic. But the removal of the option for the user to use EMC with Reikas mods is completely non-negotiable at this point for non-catastrophic reasons. Which means a method of learning his materials that both parties feel is appropriate, or not bloody doing anything and letting the user decide their own balance. Which is the option basically everyone is saying to take at this point that isn't directly on Reika's side of "Author is god".

Which leads directly into my next point. My hardware. A programmer's authority ends at their code. Period. If I want to use Firefox with Microsoft Office, neither program has any right to say otherwise. If I want to use Cloud Storage and TFC together, that is my right. If I want to play Crash Landing in Creative mode, that is my right. It is MY MACHINE. If I only want to play with Geostrata Potion Crystals? That is my right as a user. If the only thing I use from Thaumcraft is the Wand Focus of Equal Trade? That is my right as a user. NOBODY decides what is good on my machine but me. With input from the pack author, and then the mod author. But you, Reika, GregoriusT, mDiyo, JadedCat, Direwolf20, Bill Gates, Pahimar, LexManos, and The Pope all have as much final say on what I run and how I run it. None. *I* am the final arbiter of what is good or bad about the software running on my machine. Also I can point to PLENTY of programmers that make blindingly stupid decisions about all sorts of things. Being a programmer means you can program. It does NOT by virtue of existing grant you any skill at software design, balance, user interaction, or anything other than putting code together. So no. Mod authors do NOT know best when it comes to anything except THEIR MOD ALONE on top of VANILLA. Period. If you think otherwise, you're entitled to your opinion but I'm never going to agree with you and neither will a MASSIVELY large number of other people. There's a reason why most of the mod authors in the community are hands off about this stuff except in extreme situations. Precisely the reaction that is currently happening to Reika. Removing user choice is STRONG juju, use sparingly lest it bite you on the ass.

This decision by itself is not destroying his reputation, but the accumulation of his "my way or the highway" attitude and decisions? It certainly is. He's demonstrated a pattern of behavior that WILL relegate his mod to a tiny community of yes-men if it continues. GregTech did the same thing, and it is swiftly fading off the face of modded minecraft, only kept alive by the die-hard fans. Which is a terribly sad and easily avoidable method of withering away into irrelevance. So did the mod from the Forge co-creator, though at least that one was a total conversion experience and had a very unified vision. If you're running on forge, you're running on a platform designed to let multiple mods run together. Not specific mods with compatibility. Practically any mod at all.

You know... I don't think this is ever going to end well. I'm just... dismayed at the behaviour of the people at Project E. The lack of morality involved in deliberately making another person's mod function in a way other than how it was intended, against the strong objections of the creator, is just plain rude.

Any sane person would have an 'opt out', where a mod author can say "I don't want my mod to be involved in this". And respect that. And hey, if that means that mod author's mod gets less use because people don't want to play with it because it opted out... that's on him. But to not only NOT offer such an option, but to go out of your way and refuse any possible suggestion of that being an option, is... in my personal opinion, immoral, unethical, and just... rude.

I cannot fathom the line of reasoning that would make it okay to significantly alter another person's mod without their permission. You are injecting code into the same environment that significantly alters the functionality of someone else's mod, against their objections. Most uncool.

The argument that the end user/pack dev has the final say is WRONG. There's these things called 'EULA' and 'Terms of Service' that restrict that. The code author has final say as to what happens to his code. Period.

I would just prevent my mod from loading up in such an environment. Sure, the pack loads just fine, just that my mod doesn't load with it, if I were the mod author. Not crashing people, not corrupting worlds, not blowing things up, just 'you cannot play with my toys if you do not respect my wishes'. But that's just me.

You are NOT significantly altering another mod, you are altering the assumptions upon which another mod based itself. There is a difference, and it is important. They are not deliberately making Reika's mod malfunction, they are obviously and in the open changing an assumption that Reika used when he was designing his mod, that the only method of obtaining his resources would be via his processes. EMC is literally designed from the ground up to make the usual obtainment of items and blocks have another option. That is NOT in ANY WAY making Reika's mod not function. The only thing it can do, and only if the person in control of the configs EXPLICITLY CHANGES THINGS? Bypass tech gating. <sarcasm>That is a cardinal sin</sarcasm>. There is no lack of morality or ethics anywhere in this situation from the principal actors. Nobody is slinging mud, nobody is calling names, nobody is breaking any laws, nobody is doing anything that they do not have the capability to do with full awareness & consent. The actual discussions in question are no more rude than the situation warrants. This topic on the other hand I can't say the same thing for.

In this case it makes things easier and to some people more fun. It does this to ALL mods. It is core to the design of the mod, and anyone that enjoys playing with EMC knows that it changes the basic assumptions of MC AND LIKES THAT. Or they're using it for the items... which is kinda silly because there are duplicates for basically all that functionality in other mods if you don't like EMC. Making an exception for Reika does, in point of fact, run counter to the purpose and vision of another mod. It does not touch Reikas code in any way, it does nothing other than allow an alternate method of obtaining his resources once you have a sample. That's it. It does this in a quite internally balanced manner, and if it does NOT, the mod gives you the tools to make it suit your balance. Removing that option entirely from the players hand is NOT OK. Ever. For any reason short of "It literally breaks your world", "it permanently locks you out of progress in the mod", or "it corrupts your player data". I.e. catastrophic failure.

It also is not Project E's responsibility to maintain balance in ANY OTHER MOD. It only currently affects Project E directly and its method of processing and creating items. If that breaks another mod while functioning properly, it is the responsibility of the user, then the pack author, then the mod that broke, and THEN Project E to fix this problem. In that order. Because if you use a hammer to drive a nail, and the hammer functions correctly, and you then hammer your thumb instead of the nail, it is not the hammer's fault. It did precisely what it was designed to do. You broke your finger on your own.

The current goal for EE3 and Project E is universal compatibility... which means that yes, an "opt out" is actually running counter to the mod's purpose. If you don't like that, that's a matter of personal opinion, and that is a problem you should be expressing if you're forced to play with the mod for some reason. If you have the option to not play it, then you should do so. Nobody and nothing gives you the right to take that option away form me however.


How many times do I have to say this. Project E touches NO CODE FROM ROTARYCRAFT. It reads the basic forge registries. That's it. (Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on this one). It looks for items and blocks, sees how they are made if it can, and assigns "worth" to them for use in its processes. It does not alter the functionality of RoC in any way, shape, or form. It can be abused in a multitude of ways if the person that set up the config files allows it to skip the tech gating, but with the only change to defaults being the addition of EMC values for Reika's core materials? It AT WORST manages to accelerate progress through the tech tree. Not skip tiers entirely, not make anything in RoC function improperly. Speed you through some things. Obviously if the tome is enabled that assumption goes out the window, but that too was the choice of the person that enabled the option in the config. If I want to have access to creative mode to cheat in items, that too breaks the progression of RotaryCraft.

As for walking over the objections of the mod authors? The author of the mod in question, the one that has to change code to allow the blacklist, the one whose vision and code are ACTUALLY affected? Reika was the one attempting (and failing) to impose his balance on Project E, not the other way around. Against every reasonable objection raised by the authors and everyone else that wasn't on his side. Disregarding every attempt to explain the situation or reveal shaky assumptions.

I said it for CoolSquid, I'll repeat it for you. WRONG. My hardware, I win. Physical ownership trumps virtual every time. Your authority ends at your own code. PERIOD. Legally and ethically. You only have rights to your own code, how it is distributed, and to a VERY VERY limited degree how it is used. The person that has the control on what something is used for is the User. If you don't believe me than please find proof. Obvious exception to using something for crime is obvious. Reika only has any authority over how his mods interact with other code until it ceases being his code. The same is true for every single mod author out there, right up until Mojang. Because this is all running on Mojang's IP, they are the only ones besides the user who have the authority to disallow pieces of code being run together. If I want to run Dirt To Diamonds with GregTech, that is MY choice. Greg can attempt to break compatibility with Dirt To Diamonds, but his authority of all kinds ends at his code. If he directly interferes with Dirt To Diamonds, he has overstepped his bounds. Something that NONE of the mods in this ENTIRE DISCUSSION do without permission... actually you could make a case about Reikas mods with disabling handlers interfering with the proper operation of another mod like ModTweaker. Though it only affects how they operate with his code, so it's quite within his authority.

 

[RedBoss]

I peek in from time to time.

I haven't missed anything I see.

 

[HeilMewTwo]

Okay, as someone who plays with both Project E and RoC. I don't see the need for any of Rotarycraft to be emc valued, I just make tons of iron, coal and gunpowder and that speeds up my progress so much. Asking for it to be any less effort defeats the entire purpose of the mod. I would understand if it added in a rare world spawn but it doesn't. Project E's current status in regards to this is fine, it makes it easier for people to get into RoC without destroying the pacing.

 

[TomeWyrm]

Which is the default. You have to put in values manually for anything not covered by the mod, which is basically everything in Reika's mods.

 

[HeilMewTwo]

Which is the point I was making, Project E already speeds up progression enough even without assigning values to Reika's items. It doesn't need to do any more.

 

[TomeWyrm]

But removing that possibility from the people that want it is a no-go. Nobody has any right to tell anyone else how they should play.

 

[GreenZombie]

Rotary craft is not the 'golden' mod that deserves special treatment from other mods.

If a mod, such as Projec E, makes its purpose to craft 'anything' using some alternate mechanism then an attempt by any mod to blacklist all its items breaks the spirit of the first mod.

@Azanor has the most pragmatic attitude. Balance against vanilla. Don't try to break other mods because they damage your own perception of 'proper' balance. Users will migrate to their own balance and server admins who add EE mods to their servers will get the trouble they deserve.

I am sorry that the wrong mod author gets harassed about balance that results. But fighting someone else's idea of ideal balance is not a fight anyone can win and will just leave us with disillusioned mod authors and no quality mods.

If project E can dupe TC items it should be able to dupe RoC items. If it can't do one, it shouldn't be able to do the other. Which would leave the mod with no purpose.

 

[jordsta95]

Stick to that. User choice *is* king.

I wouldn't say the user gets to choose beyond config options, as far as MY* mod goes
*MY being whoever makes the mod, and what they have physically done, excluding anything they have done for mod-interaction
But if a player wants to mess with 2 mods, for example RoC and ProjectE, then they SHOULD be able to do what the hell they want. Even if it is just a config option in Reikas mods like:
B:I don't like fun=false (default)
Which when false disables the ability to use EMC to acquire his items...
However, I feel mod devs do not have any right to say what other people can (and cannot) do with their mod.

If I wanted to make a mod that turned one dirt into 64 bedrock miner things (I don't play with Reikas mods, I don't know the name), there is nothing stopping me. But Reika would have to kindly ask me to remove the mod's download, and not say anything publicly, for me to do it (which I would instantly)
Same for any other mods/mod devs. If a mod dev publicly says "<mod dev> is making progression in my mod easier than I intended it" then it starts wars, and splits apart fans of the mod, and everyone else...
And not to be mean to Reika or anything, but there are a fair amount of people who don't agree with him/how he does things, and this will be another case of that.

 

[HeilMewTwo]

Stick to that. User choice *is* king.

Since when? You pay for nothing.