The term "OP" is too OP because it renders anything OP. Therefore we should nerf the term OP. Greg, get on that.
PowerConverters OP EU Generation in FTB Ultimate
- Thread starter Shirkit
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I'm still optimizing the rig but it looks like three steam boilers going full-tilt on EU production can make enough oil to power themselves plus a fourth and change.
I have also determined that colossal steam-powered overunity machines look cooler when you are blasting Behold The Machine by Vernian Process over and over.
the "easiest" solution is: one central config, where all mods which add power conversion abilities have access to, and let modpack creators do the balancing.
because modpack distributors know their modpack, whereas modders would need to know all other mods that could be possible used in conjunction with their own mod, this is the only real solution.
and since your mod provides the most complete power transformation system so far, you could provide this power transformation config, and then, everyone connects to that. it would wipe out all problems with netherlava, infinite cycles with the magma crucible, and the new oil-fabricator - refinery - steam boiler positive loop (every bucket of oil can be turned into 1.39 buckets of oil).
To me the only way to fix this would be if forage had a unified power unit system in place that every mod used. To where a mod author would assign a power unit amount to each fuel item they add and every power generator in any mod would then respect that value.
In other words I am talking about creating a second energy amount for all fuel items that will be hidden from the user and will be universal across all mods that use forage.
In other words I am talking about creating a second energy amount for all fuel items that will be hidden from the user and will be universal across all mods that use forage.
There is, Danidas. It's called 'heat' and it represents the amount of burn time in a vanilla furnace.
The problem is, neither mod authors nor their fans can seem to agree on what A) the value should be for any modded fuels (like biofuel or aeternalis fuel), or B) how much energy that should represent.
The problem is, neither mod authors nor their fans can seem to agree on what A) the value should be for any modded fuels (like biofuel or aeternalis fuel), or B) how much energy that should represent.
which just illustrates the core confusion with terms like "OP". FTB is not a singular mod, but a collection of many different mods. Many of these mods were developed independently from each other. Some were based on some aspect of another mod. But by and large most of these mods were designed to be stand alones or only used with select other mods. There is no singular vision on what should work like in vanilla, so just enjoy it. Don't use what you don't like and leave people to enjoy their own inefficiency or OP-ness
I think the core issue in any discussion of things being 'OP' is that the only basis for comparison is relative tedium. Either by making recipes stupidly complicated, or things take a long time. To me, 'wait periods' and rare resource requirements seem like a lazy excuse for a balancing factor. Energy output is similar; if you nerf the power generation, that just means people have to make more of them (ie, spend more time mining/crafting) or put more fuel in to get the same output. To me, it says a lot that many people's biggest projects are auto-miners, sorting systems, and autocrafters - completely removing the mining, inventory management, and waiting aspects from the player's responsibilities. Instead, people like to focus on things like designer trees&bees, turtle programs, pvp, adventuring, and architecture. Things where there is discovery, skill, creativity, and learning involved. Wouldn't it be better to worry about whether something opens up an interesting/fun mechanic than whether it is 'balanced'?
Not sure if the mod author will be back, but this is working as intended.
The intended role of power converters is to allow conversion between all the power systems with no loss. So you can go from MJ -> EU -> MJ and get out exactly what you put in. This feels OP because in game there is no free system that can do that conversion. And 2.5 EU = 1 MJ, so 1 MJ has to = 2.5 EU for the conversion to be lossless.
How I think most expect it to be in the pack is like other converts -- loss heavy process. So MJ -> EU -> MJ should lose you some percentage per conversion, so what you put in you get less out. This is easy to do in the config, but to bring MJ -> EU in line with in game options (60% conversion cost) cripples the conversion ratio for all non MJ sources to EU. A 10-20% loss at each conversion though feels pretty good, but haven't tested in in survival. That leaves MJ to EU as powerful option, but makes you consider how many conversions you do and where you do them.
The intended role of power converters is to allow conversion between all the power systems with no loss. So you can go from MJ -> EU -> MJ and get out exactly what you put in. This feels OP because in game there is no free system that can do that conversion. And 2.5 EU = 1 MJ, so 1 MJ has to = 2.5 EU for the conversion to be lossless.
How I think most expect it to be in the pack is like other converts -- loss heavy process. So MJ -> EU -> MJ should lose you some percentage per conversion, so what you put in you get less out. This is easy to do in the config, but to bring MJ -> EU in line with in game options (60% conversion cost) cripples the conversion ratio for all non MJ sources to EU. A 10-20% loss at each conversion though feels pretty good, but haven't tested in in survival. That leaves MJ to EU as powerful option, but makes you consider how many conversions you do and where you do them.
I agree with you totally MachineMuse. Its deplorable and not fun when a mod forces all your time into monitoring machines to get a rare output to make another machine in an unending loop. When I played vanilla my time was spent searching for temples and villages, or building unique structures or cool train systems etc... FTB blows the doors open when it comes to opportunities for discovering new buildings, useful items, new mobs to fight and so many new material to build with. I don't want to work on a fragile machine system that either dies when i leave the base, or requires so much time to build the infrastructure system that I don't have any motivation to do any adventuring or creative builds.
If a mod is able to convert something between other mods that frees up time to actually have fun playing the game then I'm all for it.
If a mod is able to convert something between other mods that frees up time to actually have fun playing the game then I'm all for it.
People have an arbitrary idea of how "difficult" a given task should be in terms of time and effort invested; and that definition is different depending on the player or server.
Some people want to play Gregtech on hard mode and have an experience where they feel the reward of a large time investment. Others (like myself) use the logic that "I have a busy life with limited time to play, I don't want to have to spend a bunch of extra time to achieve the same result." You can't make a modpack to please everyone. Sure the "infinite loops" like the oil generation trick are the result of modpacks not coming together perfectly, but really the result is just a cheaper renewable generator.
The modpack can't please everyone, so it's up to individual servers (or single-players) to decide how they want their experience. You can download optimized configs to change the way your game plays, or you can try to set them up yourself. If you're playing alone and don't want to deal with configs, then the "just don't use it" advice applies. If you're on a server and looking to set up a "hard mode" experience, then maybe you can't just make it a rule since there will always be players who break the system, but you can set up configs / remove mods / ban items / etc. to get the 'balance' you're looking for. FTB and the modders have already done most of the work for you, now you just have to fine-tune the settings to your liking.
One thing I will say is it's an issue when mods don't have proper config files, or when the config files are there but there's no documentation for the layperson on what the settings mean. Unfortunately, that's just a reality we have to live with for now.
Some people want to play Gregtech on hard mode and have an experience where they feel the reward of a large time investment. Others (like myself) use the logic that "I have a busy life with limited time to play, I don't want to have to spend a bunch of extra time to achieve the same result." You can't make a modpack to please everyone. Sure the "infinite loops" like the oil generation trick are the result of modpacks not coming together perfectly, but really the result is just a cheaper renewable generator.
The modpack can't please everyone, so it's up to individual servers (or single-players) to decide how they want their experience. You can download optimized configs to change the way your game plays, or you can try to set them up yourself. If you're playing alone and don't want to deal with configs, then the "just don't use it" advice applies. If you're on a server and looking to set up a "hard mode" experience, then maybe you can't just make it a rule since there will always be players who break the system, but you can set up configs / remove mods / ban items / etc. to get the 'balance' you're looking for. FTB and the modders have already done most of the work for you, now you just have to fine-tune the settings to your liking.
One thing I will say is it's an issue when mods don't have proper config files, or when the config files are there but there's no documentation for the layperson on what the settings mean. Unfortunately, that's just a reality we have to live with for now.
exactly. the mods are configurable to fit everyones needs (mostly). but only the modpack creator or the server owner knows which mods are inside a modpack. so a central config, where an overall-balance can be done, would kill most of the infinite loop exploits, without harming the overall gaming experience.
although greg wants to make everything harder, he still knows how to balance things... and many balancing systems make sense. and gt-machines add interesting features.
so, the issue is, for me, that there are central configs that work for several mods simultanously.
although greg wants to make everything harder, he still knows how to balance things... and many balancing systems make sense. and gt-machines add interesting features.
so, the issue is, for me, that there are central configs that work for several mods simultanously.
I'll pick one of the following:
- Reset the world (for the 6th time!) and get that ultra hardcore hard mode recipes configs going on, with some minor changes (need some tweaking in a bunch of things, I'll see). I'll talk to the other players in the server to see if they'll accept this.
- Ignore and don't use PowerConverters (already doing it)
- Reset the world (for the 6th time!) and get that ultra hardcore hard mode recipes configs going on, with some minor changes (need some tweaking in a bunch of things, I'll see). I'll talk to the other players in the server to see if they'll accept this.
- Ignore and don't use PowerConverters (already doing it)
Honestly, if the oil fabricator DIDN'T generate a positive energy loop, what would be the point? Oil is only ever useful as a form of energy. Creating a system with multiple machines (fabricator -> refinery -> engines e.t.c.) that burns energy to create exactly the same amount of energy is the definition of futility. While setting up a system that increases your yield due to time and effort spent setting up the build make a great deal of sense.
The problem for me with it is that doesn't make sense. This is just an idiotic energy loop. Floating dirt don't explain why such conversion is possible. It could be changed to accept coal/charcoal and energy, which would be a lot better balanced with BC standalone (increase energy from coal and allow to use better engines), TE (also making combustion engine better than steam one) and RC (small buff to reward using liquid boilers instead of solid, but nothing big), basically F-T synthesis in a box, maybe adding water to make it more plausible.
what I read so far:
1. energy storage (something that isn't quite possible with buildcraft alone, and expensive with TE)
2. energy conversion (set up a nuclear reactor and watch the system producing oil out of EU)
and the system is (as energystorage) more powerfull than a MFSU. 1,5 million EU for 1 bucket of oil, one standard BC-tank stores 16 buckets... 24 million EU in just one block with 8 glass...
I have never understood why people are concerned with raw energy storage. The way the game is set up, energy production is essentially infinite. The issue is, and always has been, throughput. Sure, you can generate millions and millions of EU with a windmill if you wait long enough, but that doesn't really help you when your machines eat it all in a minute.
Converting 24million EU to oil just means that you'll have to have a large power plant to convert it all back again when you actually want to use it. And at that point, you might as well just cut out the middle man and go straight from your EU generator to whatever needed the power.
I can understand the argument about energy conversion, which is why it would be bad to have a positive energy loop for say, steam. But when we're talking about *oil* there's a large time and infrastructure expenditure to get anything useful out of it that makes the benefits worth it. It's not like PowerConverters has an "oil consumer" that just converts oil to energy. You still have to build the racks and racks of combustion engines and supporting infrastructure.
I don't think you understand my point. Oil Fabricator has nothing to do with this, and it does NOT generate a positive amount of energy. It's required 584kMJ to generate a bucket of oil, and 16kMJ to convert it to fuel, so there's no infinite energy cycle. My point was that if you burn the Fuel in the Combustion Engine, convert with PowerConverter to EU, you are gaining more EU than burning into a Diesel Generator. That was my point, maybe GregTech output for 1 bucket of fuel is low, maybe not (come'on, 1.3MEU for 1 bucket?).