New Forestry 2.0 Farm Blocks aare a PITA

[Xakthos]

I have every bee breed except dyes and the new thaumic ones, I know how much space they take. I also know that you can slap cave and nocturnal on any production bee and stack them in alvearies like magic blocks that produce stuff out of thin air. And I see no reason a factory shouldn't be as aesthetic as a factory. Lots of grey blocks, straight lines, and exposed piping. I'm pretty sure my carrot farms have never seen a ray of sunlight, I know its been a couple weeks since they've seen me around them.

My base, which I consider has everything needed, and several things not needed, is currently occupying a 2x3 block area (I had mapped out a specific 3x3, but never used that much) from 50 to 80 y-blocks. Oh yeah, there's a prototype nuke plant at the bedrock too, but it won't behave and explode like I expected.

My next base, regardless of its a rebuild of this one or a new gen of a world will be spread out to lower block-update issues, but even then I suspect I could build everything desired within 8 spot loaders.

I do have to commend you on the small footprint. I stick to 128x128 areas myself but a great deal of that is due to how I go about things and constraints I operate under.

What is not commendable however is the general assumption about aesthetics. There will never be an exposed pipe in my base willingly. Once in while it is unavoidable but definitely not the preferred. Same for power wires except in the wiring closets and access ducts I put in just for that purpose. That increases the space needed but so be it. Everyone has their own desired expectations on how something should look, it isn't right or wrong but does affect space requirements. I sacrifice a 25x25 center area of my 128x128 solely to a central shaft surrounded by a hallway overlooking it that has a grass and flower garden bottom. No bees, no nothing productive just pure pretty. Since it is in the center of my facility there's no avoiding having it count as space I need if my supply facility is on one side and industry on the other. It gets loaded as a byproduct of supporting the automation. But it looks nice so I keep it. I even make my warehouse as pretty as possible given that it's rows of thousands of barrels.

Additionally some folks operate under different constraints (by choice or circumstance) such as base needing to be totally hidden underground and hidden. That eliminates a large section of each chunk that would otherwise be used forcing by necessity to spread to more chunks to make up the lost space. Building under sea or under lava bases would have same limitation. Or a sky only base would then miss out on the ground chunk space.

So 100 chunk spaces isn't really that large. Essentially it is giving you a space that is always loaded as if you were there.

 

[DoctorOr]

Let me rephrase it: early on bees take a lot of space. When you are struggling just to stabilize common (my wife's been trying for over a week now and has like 1 princess and 1 drone) and breeding what you find on the intersection of four biomes, you cannot be very space efficient.

I'm sorry for your wife, but its really not that difficult especially that early on. You should get the Common mutation every single time you breed two mundane hive bees together. Just analyze every bee and keep breeding half breeds until you get a full drone and princess.

Hell, using Winter bees as your base for common will mean the fertility is 3x instead of 2x, giving you an extra drone to test every generation. Since two half breeds will produce a full breed of the target 25% of the time for every individual bee, you should get a full breed Common every generation.

But cool story patronizing other's play-styles and expressing 0 empathy with folks who would like a more organic and artistic look.

You'll take things as you choose. I was just pointing out that 100 blocks is far from space limited. It's truly a tremendous amount of in game space.

 

[KirinDave]

I'm sorry for your wife, but its really not that difficult especially that early on. You should get the Common mutation every single time you breed two mundane hive bees together. Just analyze every bee and keep breeding half breeds until you get a full drone and princess.

This is not true. You do not get a common mutation every single time you breed any two non-extra worldgen bees together. You get the opportunity for a common on most combinations in most packs. We've tried to stabilize our common line four times to no avail.

You'll take things as you choose. I was just pointing out that 100 blocks is far from space limited. It's truly a tremendous amount of in game space.

Only if you maximize your planning, minimize your footprint, and make no affordances for luxury. Then yes, a lot of things can fit there. It looks like the inside of a fishery.

 

[DoctorOr]

What is not commendable however is the general assumption about aesthetics. There will never be an exposed pipe in my base willingly. Once in while it is unavoidable but definitely not the preferred.

As construction foam looks horrible - and certainly doesn't match any block - and conduit/liquiduct follows no coverup methodology in existence, it's nigh unavoidable from the start.

But as somebody who worked in actual real life canneries as a teenager, I also recognize that a factory ...looks like a factory. And when I have plant farms, biomass and biofuel generation, steam power plants, and 20 centrifuges processing rubber wood and its byproducts, what I have is nothing less than a factory.

Additionally some folks operate under different constraints (by choice or circumstance) such as base needing to be totally hidden underground and hidden. That eliminates a large section of each chunk that would otherwise be used forcing by necessity to spread to more chunks to make up the lost space. Building under sea or under lava bases would have same limitation. Or a sky only base would then miss out on the ground chunk space.

Actually, most of my base is "underground and hidden". I'm in an extreme hills biome, and "ground level" is level 76, were I in a plains biome, everything would be shifted down to be just barely sticking out, just lower on the y-block level. It's not the hidden bases that are going to be spread out among lots of chunks.

 

[DoctorOr]

This is not true.

Sorry again, but the Punnett square says otherwise. AB and AB bees will generate AA, and BB 25% of the time each. Mathematical certainty.

The chance to start the process off, and get that first Common mutation is 15% individually per bee so 2 drones and a princess is three chances per generation.

 

[Guswut]

Sorry again, but the Punnett square says otherwise. AB and AB bees will generate AA, and BB 25% of the time each. Mathematical certainty.

That is not how probability works. In a large enough sample size, you SHOULD have a roughly 25% output. In a small enough sample size, though, it is entirely possible, assuming Forestry is using simple randomization and not weighted randomization, to have it never happen. The larger your sample size gets, the more unlikely it is that you will have a non-standard pattern like that keep happening, but it can, and does. That is how probability works. Thanks!

EDiT: No worries, esotericist, it was... *Puts on sunglasses* probable.

 

[esotericist]

As construction foam looks horrible - and certainly doesn't match any block - and conduit/liquiduct follows no coverup methodology in existence, it's nigh unavoidable from the start.

Immibis' Microblocks mod (which I found, like, an hour ago) works on liquiduct, purportedly.

It's still buggy (particularly with IC2 wires) and new-ish, but considering what it's providing as a general flexibility analog to redpower's microblocks, I think it's fantastic.

Sorry again, but the Punnett square says otherwise. AB and AB bees will generate AA, and BB 25% of the time each. Mathematical certainty.

The chance to start the process off, and get that first Common mutation is 15% individually per bee so 2 drones and a princess is three chances per generation.

mm. I know where you're coming from with the statistical expectations, but I actually went through a good 40+ generations trying to stabilize Common myself last time I messed with bees, and couldn't, even using half-breeds. It IS possible for it to continuously fail. Real probability can have freakish streaks.

EDIT: Ninja'd on the probability side by Guswut. <3

 

[modpir8king]

As construction foam looks horrible - and certainly doesn't match any block - and conduit/liquiduct follows no coverup methodology in existence, it's nigh unavoidable from the start.

But as somebody who worked in actual real life canneries as a teenager, I also recognize that a factory ...looks like a factory. And when I have plant farms, biomass and biofuel generation, steam power plants, and 20 centrifuges processing rubber wood and its byproducts, what I have is nothing less than a factory.



Actually, most of my base is "underground and hidden". I'm in an extreme hills biome, and "ground level" is level 76, were I in a plains biome, everything would be shifted down to be just barely sticking out, just lower on the y-block level. It's not the hidden bases that are going to be spread out among lots of chunks.

Actually there is now a way to cover up conduit/liquiduct in the form Immibis's microblocks they work the same as redpowers but for TE items as well.

 

[Poppycocks]

I'd like to return to the discussion happening on page 6 for a bit - regarding stacked multifarms and pipes and the aesthetics of such builds.

I think you should be able to create such a column and keep it purdy by using routers. A block tall gap should be enough to house your aquaeous accumulators and tesseracts. Smart use of enderchests/item tesseracts in said gaps could probably make it even easier.

 

[DoctorOr]

That is not how probability works.

I didn't say that in 4 bees, one will be AA. I said 25% of the time. I know quite well how probability works.[DOUBLEPOST=1361225627][/DOUBLEPOST]

I'd like to return to the discussion happening on page 6 for a bit - regarding stacked multifarms and pipes and the aesthetics of such builds.

I think you should be able to create such a column and keep it purdy by using routers. A block tall gap should be enough to house your aquaeous accumulators and tesseracts.

Because input and output from the sides is limited to the inventory on that side, you really need access to the top or bottom to take out product and fill it with resources.

I think, for example, that fertilizer _has_ to come from the bottom if you're using RP. BC pipes are mor eflexibile but even then you're going to want the top or bottom. Thus one block between farms is almost certainly not enough.

 

[KirinDave]

I'd like to return to the discussion happening on page 6 for a bit - regarding stacked multifarms and pipes and the aesthetics of such builds.

I think you should be able to create such a column and keep it purdy by using routers. A block tall gap should be enough to house your aquaeous accumulators and tesseracts.

This sounds interesting, but isn't light level management still important?

 

[Poppycocks]

This sounds interesting, but isn't light level management still important?

Lamps in the gap?

 

[KirinDave]

Lamps in the gap?

I wonder if wrath lamps could be abused somehow.

 

[esotericist]

I didn't say that in 4 bees, one will be AA. I said 25% of the time. I know quite well how probability works.

When you deploy the term "mathematical certainty" in the context of what someone will get from their breeding attempts, it gives a rather different indication.

When it comes to this kind of item, the results of probability only begin approaching "certainty" at sample sizes well outside the scope of the typical minecraft player.

 

[Peppe]

I wonder if wrath lamps could be abused somehow.

Wraith lamps and farms don't go well together. Those lamps use invisible light blocks to extend beyond the normal 15 light level max of a source. The invisible light blocks prevent growth.

 

[esotericist]

Wraith lamps and farms don't go well together. Those lamps use invisible light blocks to extend beyond the normal 15 light level max of a source. The invisible light blocks prevent growth.

Yes, but only out to a certain distance. At some point, they're just casting light, right? If you can get the spacing right, it might still work in some contexts.

 

[Poppycocks]

Yes, but only out to a certain distance. At some point, they're just casting light, right? If you can get the spacing right, it might still work in some contexts.

Then you'd only be using the edges, the efieciency would be the same as using sulphur torches along the edges of the farm column, which doesn't sound very efficient.

Eh, the whole bloody mess is such an easy to fix bug, but the maker of factorization dropped off the face of the earth and we're not likely to see an update any time soon.

Which blows, as I really love my routers and barrels.