Modding Win10 Edition

[Inaeo]

Been out of the loop for a while due to life being life. A friend is trying to drag me back into MC, and we briefly discussed using the Win10 version. Question is, what is the state of modding for the Win10? I'm ok with checking out Vanilla for a bit, but I feel like there's too much modded convenience that I won't last long without.

 

[Alexiy]

One of the Forge developer's said that there will be no modding platform for that minecraft windows 10 edition, whatever it is named.

 

[Cpt_gloval]

BedRock Edition. Per Minecraft and Mojang a Modded API is supposed to be released for Bedrock at some point. That was stated 2-3 years ago though and no other word since so I'm guessing that was said just to build hype.

Bedrock is kind of cool in that it does run better then the Java version over all but a lot of things work a little differently so there is a bit of a WTF curve to get over.

 

[Inaeo]

The gains in performance were the key point in our discussion. The additional new content within Vanilla (there have been a number of additions and improvements since I last played unmodded) were a nice bonus. After all, a solid Vanilla base provides a wonderful foundation for the rest to build on.

As far as the modding API is concerned, I've been told that was coming for years now, and I'm afraid it will be the new Chinese Democracy (long awaited, horribly underwhelming). Even if/when it comes, it will be a solid year before mods become stable enough to tinker with. A shame Mojang continues to leave the API unprioritized, as it seems that would be a logical step towards Microsoft's plan to teach kids to code.

I know there had been some effort to mod the mobile version, which is now the basis of the code that the newer versions are running, so I wasn't sure if any of that effort had paid off. For now it seems it's either playing smooth updated Vanilla or a small choppy modded game.

 

[Drbretto]

I wouldn't hold off too much hope for modded Win10 version. I've heard the same rumors you all have heard and while it seems like a neat concept, I just don't see it happening.

It's basically Java for mods and Bedrock for vanilla. They have "addons" which just isn't even close to the same. Unless all you care about is the blast radius of your creepers or whatever.

But I just don't see the modding community ever going that hard on that version. It's too entrenched in this version.

 

[Inaeo]

While I don't disagree about the smallness of the chance of it happening, if it were to happen, I can see the modding community taking to it (assuming of course the API isn't a complete waste of everyone's time, which is surprisingly a big ask). The upgrade under the hood is enough to make people interested, and proper hooks (no offense meant to the Forge team) to the engine could allow for more stability and better performance in one. To me the level of interest in modding Bedrock will be gauged solely on the ease of use, level of access, and timely launch of said API.

But I'm not holding my breath.

 

[Drbretto]

I think that's part of why I'm so skeptical of this is that I just expect them to completely mess up the API. I just have a hard time thinking they'll "get it" as they clearly haven't based on what little they will allow you to mess with with their current "addons". I took that as a preview of their plans for their API and I just don't see it getting open enough to attract real moderators.

Java minecraft will always be the pirate radio version. That's my prediction. The C# concept I've heard here a few times is the only hope, but I've never heard anything about it anywhere but here. But the only reason that would work is that people can go in and change whatever they want like they already can with Java.

 

[Hambeau]

The situation: "Moddable" Minecraft is written in Java. Windows10 Minecraft and all other versions, for that matter, including Pocket Edition and the Console versions are all written in C++ and referred to as "Bedrock".

The current plan, according to what I've inferred from the various "content creators" who have visited Mojang at their offices annually for 2 years so far, is to continue to bring both codebases into conformity, functionally speaking. This is why we've seen several Major version changes in the past year or 2 ("major" is the number after the first decimal, like .8 or .12) some of these changes completely change the way MC can be changed, hence the hesitation between 1.7.10 mods and 1.8.x mods. One of the changes coming in 1.13 is a complete remake for rendering as I understand, and one of the reasons people feel comfortable setting on the 1.12.2 version. Note: most of the performance improvements we're seeing in Java are being ported from the "Bedrock" C++ .

In the future, after the internal systems are fully compatible between versions the plan is to implement C# as a "modding language" since code already exists for both Java and C++ to cross-compile C# to both native languages.

At that point, Modders would use C# to create mods and distribute them as source code, which would be interpreted to whichever version the user wants.

There are also data conversion changes being made (1.13 actually removes either Metadata or the other "extra item data" mode) and there will probably be specific formats to use for item/block data (json?) which will be created for mods.

I think this is all going to happen if Minecraft survives because I've seen info from Microsoft indicating that Minecraft was purchased with the idea of increasing the use of Visual Studio for teaching kids many software development disciplines on a popular platform (Minecraft).

 

[ShneekeyTheLost]

If you see mods in the Win10 version, it'll be through their Content store. Basically, paid mods. Then again, what can you expect from M$?

Not that it matters much to me. I run Linux, and have no interest in using WINE and buy another copy of a game I already own just to be able to play it.

 

[Inaeo]

The situation: "Moddable" Minecraft is written in Java. Windows10 Minecraft and all other versions, for that matter, including Pocket Edition and the Console versions are all written in C++ and referred to as "Bedrock".

The current plan, according to what I've inferred from the various "content creators" who have visited Mojang at their offices annually for 2 years so far, is to continue to bring both codebases into conformity, functionally speaking. This is why we've seen several Major version changes in the past year or 2 ("major" is the number after the first decimal, like .8 or .12) some of these changes completely change the way MC can be changed, hence the hesitation between 1.7.10 mods and 1.8.x mods. One of the changes coming in 1.13 is a complete remake for rendering as I understand, and one of the reasons people feel comfortable setting on the 1.12.2 version. Note: most of the performance improvements we're seeing in Java are being ported from the "Bedrock" C++ .

In the future, after the internal systems are fully compatible between versions the plan is to implement C# as a "modding language" since code already exists for both Java and C++ to cross-compile C# to both native languages.

At that point, Modders would use C# to create mods and distribute them as source code, which would be interpreted to whichever version the user wants.

There are also data conversion changes being made (1.13 actually removes either Metadata or the other "extra item data" mode) and there will probably be specific formats to use for item/block data (json?) which will be created for mods.

I think this is all going to happen if Minecraft survives because I've seen info from Microsoft indicating that Minecraft was purchased with the idea of increasing the use of Visual Studio for teaching kids many software development disciplines on a popular platform (Minecraft).

I had gathered much of the same info, but without any sort of timeline. Don't suppose you have a source on that? No expecting you to, mind you, but never hurts to ask.

I was curious where things stood, since in my absence the Vanilla game has once again moved forward (Aquatic Update 1&2), and as mentioned above, the performance of Bedrock along with the additional content made it seem appealing. However, if modding Bedrock is still years out, I guess I'll just have to save up for a new system (at which point the new content might be modded Java anyway).

I knew it was a tough ask, but I really hoped things were.closer to the crossover point by now. I'll temper my expectations and return to being patient for now.

 

[Drbretto]

There was one thing that might give you some hope. Or my lack of understanding on this topic is going to give you false hope

But, I believe it's the same people behind the Continuum shader (basically a more efficient and better versin of SEUS) and they were, at least a while back, working on a way to use the Bedrock rendering into the Java version. This would have allowed someone to use the upcoming "Super duper graphics pack" mode in the Java version.

I'm not sure if this will increase performance or not, to be honest. But it might help? This is out of my league at this point.

Edit: trying to find a link.

https://continuum.graphics/#nova-renderer

It might have been part of this, but now I'm not sure. I thought it was a more direct port of the bedrock version rather than this whole new thing. But, this whole new thing might just be what yo're looking for anyway.

 

[Hambeau]

I had gathered much of the same info, but without any sort of timeline. Don't suppose you have a source on that? No expecting you to, mind you, but never hurts to ask.

I was curious where things stood, since in my absence the Vanilla game has once again moved forward (Aquatic Update 1&2), and as mentioned above, the performance of Bedrock along with the additional content made it seem appealing. However, if modding Bedrock is still years out, I guess I'll just have to save up for a new system (at which point the new content might be modded Java anyway).

I knew it was a tough ask, but I really hoped things were.closer to the crossover point by now. I'll temper my expectations and return to being patient for now.

The only "Timeline" I have is the ongoing process to make the internal processes for both Java and Bedrock function identically, and that's been going on since the last real Minecon, about three years or starting with MC 1.8.x.

Looking at DW20 packs on Twitch, the pack most previous to the current 1.12.2 version is the 1.10 version which was released in Jun 2017. By my count that's 3 major MC versions with the 4th (1.13) scheduled to release next week. 4 new versions in a single year... think about it.

Both versions are receiving new content at the same time... Version 1.13, The "Aquatic" update is hitting both versions very soon.

I assume all the new content is created to use the same symbol names and variables to access things in both versions, and the majority of the modifications occurring to unite the functionality between versions seems to be mostly happening on the Java version.

I would say at least a couple more years, unless the "Unified Modding System" (my name) is implemented on Bedrock more quickly since most of the internal system improvements are already in Bedrock.

To others:
As far as selling mods/content in the Windows store, Twitch or wherever, I have no problem if hobbyist programmers make a little cash for their effort, since it would probably be based on a royalty-like basis.

 

[Cptqrk]

*snip* If you see mods in the Win10 version, it'll be through their Content store. Basically, paid mods. *snip*

This... Take into consideration you have to pay for a skin with "Bedrock"....

I'll stick with the java version. With foamfix and other mods that improve modded gameplay, I see no need to switch.

 

[DREVL]

On one side, I believe that bedrock will take off. Playing the long game, and taking a long time to do it right. On the other side of the coin... My sig.

 

[Reddis]

I am curious. Why do people act like Minecraft is so broken? I understand that java is pretty unforgiving (not that I even know what that means) but I've never had any serious problems with minecraft, except for 1 pack in particular.

 

[Drbretto]

It's incredibly inefficient. It's not broken,it just could be better within its own confines.

If you look right now at the performance difference between the java version and win10, it's a pretty big gap. I could run a vanilla world at 60fps with 60 view distance on win10, but I'm already starting to chug at 24 view distance in java. This doesn't seem like a big deal until you factor in how much mods can bog it down even further. If you could mod the c++ versions the same way you could mod the java version, I'd bet it could literally lead to entirely new categories of mods that aren't feasible on Java. Or at the very least open up more processing power for graphical enhancement.

Before anyone says graphics aren't important, well, this is a creative game. It can be important.

Edit: Oh and VR, don't even get me started! Vivecraft appears to be vastly superior to win10's VR, except for the performance angle.

 

[Reddis]

It's incredibly inefficient. It's not broken,it just could be better within its own confines.

If you look right now at the performance difference between the java version and win10, it's a pretty big gap. I could run a vanilla world at 60fps with 60 view distance on win10, but I'm already starting to chug at 24 view distance in java. This doesn't seem like a big deal until you factor in how much mods can bog it down even further. If you could mod the c++ versions the same way you could mod the java version, I'd bet it could literally lead to entirely new categories of mods that aren't feasible on Java. Or at the very least open up more processing power for graphical enhancement.

Before anyone says graphics aren't important, well, this is a creative game. It can be important.

Perhaps I have never had a build where draw distance mattered or needed 60 fps. I run on a year old laptop and haven't ever had issues.

 

[Drbretto]

Yeah, that's all in play style.

But even universally.. Think about what your internet speed means. It's not just about getting files faster, it opens up new doors. I do believe a much more efficient minecraft that was also open to real modding would open up new doors to new experiences. It would still affect everyone in the long run.

 

[Hambeau]

Also as I heard the story (I.E. not verified) Notch wrote Minecraft to teach himself (as a beginner) how to program in Java because Java was the only free language at the time. If this is true then there would be a vast plethora of algorithms and techniques he wasn't aware of which means the remaining original code is far from optimal.

The C++ version was written later by people who at least had some formal education and a prior project to learn from. In addition, they were writing it for phones and PDAs with limited ram and far from the most capable hardware... This is why the first worlds on MCPE were limited to 256x256 blocks (not chunks).

Most of the current work on the Java version consists of cleaning up the internal systems' inefficient code and implementing better techniques developed in Bedrock.

 

[Reddis]

Also as I heard the story (I.E. not verified) Notch wrote Minecraft to teach himself (as a beginner) how to program in Java because Java was the only free language at the time.

I read the same story somewhere. All these things said, why doesn't one of the community's exceptionally talented mod authors rewrite minecraft in a language or way that fixes these problems? I mean, I get that it takes time, money and resources... but some of the devs are incredibly talented when you think of what they have done for the minecraft community. I'm sure it wouldn't take much to create a cult following like minecraft has.