In the discussion about Infinity Expert Mode, there was a lot of discussion about 'grindy' and what was too much and what was just enough, and I thought this was an opportunity to explore this mechanic which is inherent in Minecraft, where it is appropriate, and what might constitute too much for some people.
First off, I would like to go on the record and state that being 'too grindy' is an inherently subjective statement which will vary from person to person. Therefore, it is silly to try and make it appear as some kind of objective or factual statement.
Having said that, there are a number of ways to misuse grinding to replace actual content for game play duration. This was prevalent back in the old NES days to extend the play-time on a game because there wasn't enough memory to put in enough content to be worth the price tag.
However, what grind does not do is make the game actually any more difficult, just more tedious. It doesn't make a game harder, it just makes it last longer. Making someone take an extra three hours of gameplay to make a bucket doesn't intrinsically make the game harder to beat, it just means you have to go through those hours of gameplay to be able to move liquid source blocks.
Some people really like this, because you can spend a couple hundred hours on a game with a high level of grind, as opposed to maybe a couple dozen hours without the extra grind thrown in. So it feels like you get more bang for your buck. Others, however, don't have hundreds of hours to devote to a video game anymore, and are less inclined to deal with it.
Either way you stand on the topic, however, I would like to address the point that was made several times in the 'we gave up after eighteen hours' thread, and that is the topic of feedback. Everyone has a different viewpoint and a different experience. Player feedback in invaluable to a mod pack team. And the original point of 'I would really like to have an intermediary difficulty between 'ez mode' and 'omgwtfbbq mode'' is one well made. This is the kind of feedback which dev teams need to improve their game construction. This is constructive criticism and an offer of a proposed solution. Less useful, however, are simply complaints about being 'too hard' with no further information added. If you are going to give feedback, give them something to work with. 'This sucks' is insufficient datum.
So, onto the main topic: grinding. Lots of games include grinding in various ways. Most RPG economy systems involve grinding. Most tech trees or leveling systems involve grinding. The problem isn't necessarily the grinding itself so much as what you are doing while you are grinding and how involved you are in it.
You see, grinding levels and money for phat lewtz generally involves combat, so if you designed your combat system to be enjoyable, it is something the player is going to be inclined to do. This gets even better when you have a game where you have an interactive combat system like Legend of Dragoon, which made combat more interesting and dynamic. However, if your combat system was like, say, Castlevania II... not so much. Unfortunately, Minecraft's combat mechanics are... decidedly on the Castlevania II's end of the spectrum. 1.9 will be changing this (and I can hardly wait!), but that is still in the future.
Thaumcraft 4's research mechanic is definitely what I would call a grind. And, the first time through, it is a very enjoyable one. You have a minigame to play, where you can come up with creative solutions, and each research unlocks things to do. Granted, replay value tends to drop off sharply after the tenth time or so of doing it, but it's absolutely great the first time through.
IC2-ex and GregTech, however, have decided to use primarily sub-combine grind, and consumable tools. And there is just no way that I have found to make staring at a crafting grid making sub-combines until your eyes bleed to be remotely entertaining. Particularly for non-stacking sub-combine items.
Better? Worse? These things are subjective. There is a way to incorporate grind into a game where you can find it enjoyable. You can also abuse forced grinding to extend a game's play-time. Where these values lie depends largely on the player. One person's enjoyable can be another person's tedium. However, it is an important mechanic to understand, and a vital one in nearly any game anybody plays. And understanding where you yourself stand on the sliding scale of grinding can help you steer to games you might enjoy versus ones you might either find to be too short or too tedious.
First off, I would like to go on the record and state that being 'too grindy' is an inherently subjective statement which will vary from person to person. Therefore, it is silly to try and make it appear as some kind of objective or factual statement.
Having said that, there are a number of ways to misuse grinding to replace actual content for game play duration. This was prevalent back in the old NES days to extend the play-time on a game because there wasn't enough memory to put in enough content to be worth the price tag.
However, what grind does not do is make the game actually any more difficult, just more tedious. It doesn't make a game harder, it just makes it last longer. Making someone take an extra three hours of gameplay to make a bucket doesn't intrinsically make the game harder to beat, it just means you have to go through those hours of gameplay to be able to move liquid source blocks.
Some people really like this, because you can spend a couple hundred hours on a game with a high level of grind, as opposed to maybe a couple dozen hours without the extra grind thrown in. So it feels like you get more bang for your buck. Others, however, don't have hundreds of hours to devote to a video game anymore, and are less inclined to deal with it.
Either way you stand on the topic, however, I would like to address the point that was made several times in the 'we gave up after eighteen hours' thread, and that is the topic of feedback. Everyone has a different viewpoint and a different experience. Player feedback in invaluable to a mod pack team. And the original point of 'I would really like to have an intermediary difficulty between 'ez mode' and 'omgwtfbbq mode'' is one well made. This is the kind of feedback which dev teams need to improve their game construction. This is constructive criticism and an offer of a proposed solution. Less useful, however, are simply complaints about being 'too hard' with no further information added. If you are going to give feedback, give them something to work with. 'This sucks' is insufficient datum.
So, onto the main topic: grinding. Lots of games include grinding in various ways. Most RPG economy systems involve grinding. Most tech trees or leveling systems involve grinding. The problem isn't necessarily the grinding itself so much as what you are doing while you are grinding and how involved you are in it.
You see, grinding levels and money for phat lewtz generally involves combat, so if you designed your combat system to be enjoyable, it is something the player is going to be inclined to do. This gets even better when you have a game where you have an interactive combat system like Legend of Dragoon, which made combat more interesting and dynamic. However, if your combat system was like, say, Castlevania II... not so much. Unfortunately, Minecraft's combat mechanics are... decidedly on the Castlevania II's end of the spectrum. 1.9 will be changing this (and I can hardly wait!), but that is still in the future.
Thaumcraft 4's research mechanic is definitely what I would call a grind. And, the first time through, it is a very enjoyable one. You have a minigame to play, where you can come up with creative solutions, and each research unlocks things to do. Granted, replay value tends to drop off sharply after the tenth time or so of doing it, but it's absolutely great the first time through.
IC2-ex and GregTech, however, have decided to use primarily sub-combine grind, and consumable tools. And there is just no way that I have found to make staring at a crafting grid making sub-combines until your eyes bleed to be remotely entertaining. Particularly for non-stacking sub-combine items.
Better? Worse? These things are subjective. There is a way to incorporate grind into a game where you can find it enjoyable. You can also abuse forced grinding to extend a game's play-time. Where these values lie depends largely on the player. One person's enjoyable can be another person's tedium. However, it is an important mechanic to understand, and a vital one in nearly any game anybody plays. And understanding where you yourself stand on the sliding scale of grinding can help you steer to games you might enjoy versus ones you might either find to be too short or too tedious.
