Manufactio - Minecraft/Factorio hybrid

[Pyure]

It's to force you to switch over to autocrafting with assemblers, and once you have key components setup, you can craft more work tables.

I don't understand Even if I'm encouraged to autocraft, say, 80% of everything i craft, what about the remaining 20%? Is there a later-game 3x3 grid I'll earn or something?

 

[Golrith]

I don't understand Even if I'm encouraged to autocraft, say, 80% of everything i craft, what about the remaining 20%? Is there a later-game 3x3 grid I'll earn or something?

By the time you need mass crafting of 3x3 recipes, you'll have either AE2 and/or RFTools Crafters, or you've built more Forestry Worktables.

 

[gattsuru]

I'm not sure if it's the same frustration as Pyure encountered, but at least into the early Blue Science era, there was still a sizable mix of 3x3 crafts that were being made in batches but didn't make sense to automate or were in progress toward automation (pistons, item routers, compactors, bins), and others that were made in sets of one or two with long intervals between (techgun crafting stations, tools and weapons, pre-Military Science ammo, early filters, compressors, drill heads, Modular Machinery structure pieces). In normal Forestry, the Worktable is of significant benefit because you could load it up with just the awkward recipes that you'd otherwise be stuck abusing JEI's left-hand side for. Here, where it's the only crafting station available, even fairly common matters like pistons are likely to be out of the memory history by the time you need to make them again. I was lucky and found a structure with a Crafting Table I could co-opt and decent placement, but it's a strange level of inconvenience.

I get that you're trying to avoid the situation where people put off making Assemblers or Automated Workbenches except to the point Green Science requires it, by handcrafting a thousand inserters and conveyors, since that's both tempting and neither fun nor good preparation for later game stages. But the emphasis on one crafting station seems in contradiction with Pollution of the Realms and Factory0 Resources encouraging more spread out bases. In the worst case, someone's introduction to the new and improved Creepers could blow their Worktable away before, and while that's not _completely_ unwinnable, if it happens before you have access to Plastic Sheets it means rooting up your entire operation to find a new worldgen structure, if not just time to restart.

((On the other hand, it's still far better than the efab.))

I've also run into a number of situations where the unlock tree seems off. The Mining Drill Research can be purchased without having Carbon Fiber or the gasoline canister research (and all the flammables before that) unlocked, even though it needs both to actually be crafted; it's not the only such case. Going the other direction, Improved Steam Engines are dependent on the Basic Alloy Processing (presumably for the Electrum), but if you have a Crusher or AE Grindstone you don't actually need the Alloy Kiln for anything but Hardened Glass. I don't know that any of these are critical enough to justify redrawing out dependencies, but it might be helpful to either or relabel the tool tips.

 

[Golrith]

I'm not sure if it's the same frustration as Pyure encountered, but at least into the early Blue Science era, there was still a sizable mix of 3x3 crafts that were being made in batches but didn't make sense to automate or were in progress toward automation (pistons, item routers, compactors, bins), and others that were made in sets of one or two with long intervals between (techgun crafting stations, tools and weapons, pre-Military Science ammo, early filters, compressors, drill heads, Modular Machinery structure pieces). In normal Forestry, the Worktable is of significant benefit because you could load it up with just the awkward recipes that you'd otherwise be stuck abusing JEI's left-hand side for. Here, where it's the only crafting station available, even fairly common matters like pistons are likely to be out of the memory history by the time you need to make them again. I was lucky and found a structure with a Crafting Table I could co-opt and decent placement, but it's a strange level of inconvenience.

I get that you're trying to avoid the situation where people put off making Assemblers or Automated Workbenches except to the point Green Science requires it, by handcrafting a thousand inserters and conveyors, since that's both tempting and neither fun nor good preparation for later game stages. But the emphasis on one crafting station seems in contradiction with Pollution of the Realms and Factory0 Resources encouraging more spread out bases. In the worst case, someone's introduction to the new and improved Creepers could blow their Worktable away before, and while that's not _completely_ unwinnable, if it happens before you have access to Plastic Sheets it means rooting up your entire operation to find a new worldgen structure, if not just time to restart.

((On the other hand, it's still far better than the efab.))

I've also run into a number of situations where the unlock tree seems off. The Mining Drill Research can be purchased without having Carbon Fiber or the gasoline canister research (and all the flammables before that) unlocked, even though it needs both to actually be crafted; it's not the only such case. Going the other direction, Improved Steam Engines are dependent on the Basic Alloy Processing (presumably for the Electrum), but if you have a Crusher or AE Grindstone you don't actually need the Alloy Kiln for anything but Hardened Glass. I don't know that any of these are critical enough to justify redrawing out dependencies, but it might be helpful to either or relabel the tool tips.

Thanks for the feedback!

I've just done an update with a lot of adjustments. Currently the Alloy Kiln is required to make the alloys, no more manual dust mixing, and the electric furnace has more alloys and is more resource efficient (so progression).
Some research stages don't have requirements to stop the research tree looking an untidy web of chaos, but the mining drill definitely needs adjusting on the requirements.

I've recently added a way to exchange research points for chunk loaders, I can do the same for the workbenches (at least for red/green) giving you a way to get 3 workbenches before you can craft them normally.
Many recipes have been adjusted to ensure that using assemblers is more resource efficient, as another push to automation (since time isn't a factor with the removal of efab).

Feel free to post here or on my discord channel any inconsistencies or suggestions.

 

[gattsuru]

Currently the Alloy Kiln is required to make the alloys, no more manual dust mixing, and the electric furnace has more alloys and is more resource efficient (so progression).

Ah, that's a good solution. And it also handles the Alloy Kiln's pollution issues for the people that don't notice it directly.

I've recently added a way to exchange research points for chunk loaders, I can do the same for the workbenches (at least for red/green) giving you a way to get 3 workbenches before you can craft them normally.

Research Points certainly wouldn't be a terrible option, if only because by that point you should have a moderate stash of them and, while they're 'expensive' until you get automation together, they only become cheap about the same point that you've got Workbenches going. I've been trying to think of a good expense that doesn't require any 3x3 crafts to achieve -- the worst-case scenario being of someone getting two of the Automation 3/Advanced Electronics/Plastics trifecta and then getting Breacher Creepered while crafting -- but it might just be a situation people should be planning explicitly on avoiding.

Many recipes have been adjusted to ensure that using assemblers is more resource efficient, as another push to automation (since time isn't a factor with the removal of efab).

In particular, thanks for buffing assembly of Packaged Power Drills. It's a much better motivation to and to push for the Assemblers (and their upgrades) asap.

Did you intend to boost the Powered Drill's pollution? The Questbook says 0C/0.1S (and in 1.0 it was set in the cfg to 0C/0.15S), but the f0-resources$drill_part.cfg config file is showing 0.15C/0.015S, and that make's a pretty serious difference when set up in a desert.

 

[Golrith]

Hmm, I don't remember making any changes to the electric drill pollution, but can confirm it's has changed from V1.0. I'll have to look at that.

 

[gattsuru]

Thanks for the continued updates and balancing patches. A few additional questions:

What, if anything, can burn Refined Fuel? I've tried it in the Diesel Generator (which can burn Creosote, thank you), the Portable Generator, as a Thermoelectric Generator block, and as bottles going directly into Better Boiler Fireboxes, but I might just be missing something that's not in the crafttweaker scripts. I've been using it to refuel tools (though it can only be loaded in the TechGuns Chemical Plant, rather than the IE bottler the guide points people toward), but there's no way I'm going through as much as the Distillery is producing. It'd be nice to have something less sulphurous than the diesel or biodiesel, but it's also not included as an emitter in adpother. JEI U key doesn't show any generators, but it doesn't always cover IE/IP stuff.

Is there a simple way of automatically refreshing Pollution Filter blocks that I'm missing? Doing so by hand is trivial -- even more so if you get there before one of the materials fills up, in which case it just needs to be shaken in a 2x2 crafting interface -- but the closest to true automation I've gotten involved a OpenBlocks Block Breaker and Block Placer, several comparators, a pump, a Standard or Advanced Assembler, and pile of precrafted breath filters, and it's both a little Rube Goldbergian and prone to change blocks when they overfill on carbon, even where I'm running the fumes into a greenhouse. The mod author describes the use of hoppers for automation; I'm not sure if this is disabled, or I'm just missing something obvious.

Most of the time, isn't an issue, but Coke Ovens (very realistically) produce so much pollution and need to be used so heavily for an Arc Furnace steel or even bulk ore processing (at 477 operations per graphite set, 96 coke coal per graphite set, 50 seconds coke coal, you need ten seconds of Coke Oven operation per one Arc Furnace operation) that bulk automation is basically the only way for the Arc Furnace to be useful before Titanium Alumide is unlocked. Even if just using filters to block Sulphur, you basically get 120 coal coke per filter -- not bad as a tradeoff to the metal cost, but that's five filter exchanges just for the Low-Density Structures used for the Titanium Alumide research.

Yellow Science Packs were a fun wakeup call.

Legendary Lootbags have a chance of dropping a Stage XXXX Unknown Item (Bronze Shovel Package?). Dunno if that was intended to be disabled, or intended to be removed from the loot list.

Similarly, Titanium Drill Heads have an uncraftable Stage XXXX Unknown Item (Titanium Blocks?).

I'm not sure about the recipes for Production Science Packs; the Assembler recipes take eight blast brick, one electric engine, and one productivity module, while the Automated Workbench takes four blast brick, one electric engine, and one productivity module. Both recipes return two Science Packs. I assume the goal is to allow people to trade off between a certain higher cost versus a small chance of getting the more expensive components free from a Productivity upgrade, and the math works out. But it feels a little out of the normal pattern of use.

 

[Golrith]

I'll have to load up the pack to check out most of your queries and provide definate answers, but here's some based on my "gut"

Refined Fuel shouldn't be craftable, I'd have to check how you managed it.
Pollution Filters are either by hand, or using a Block Breaker/Placer setup. I think the hopper method is a later version of the mod as the original mod method is to use wool and/or leaves as a filter material as an anvil craft (which I bypass)
Graphite Rods should have their durability increased drastically from IE default. If not, it's possible an update reset their config value.
Legendary Lootbags - I need to work out a way to remove XXXXX loot. They are using vanilla loot tables and not really "Legendary" as such.
Titanium Blocks appears to be an issue, don't know how that slipped through.
Production Science has had a few recipe redesigns over time, I may have overlooked something on the Automated Workbench (as it's not commonly used).

 

[gattsuru]

Refined Fuel shouldn't be craftable, I'd have to check how you managed it.

Immersive Petroleum Distillation Tower, using either Oil or Liquifacted Coal. In ImmersivePetroleum.cfg :

        # Distillation Tower recipes. Format: power_cost, input_name, input_mb -> output1_name, output1_mb, output2_name, output2_mb
        S:towerRecipes <
            980, oil, 100 -> lubricant, 45, refined_fuel, 10, gasoline, 55
            980, coal, 70 -> lubricant, 15, refined_fuel, 35, gasoline, 20
         >

There does not appear to be any zs overrides that would be changing it further, so if that's supposed to be diesel (like the Modular Machinery refinery), it's easy enough to change.

Pollution Filters are either by hand, or using a Block Breaker/Placer setup. I think the hopper method is a later version of the mod as the original mod method is to use wool and/or leaves as a filter material as an anvil craft (which I bypass)

Ah, that makes sense. Thanks.

Graphite Rods should have their durability increased drastically from IE default. If not, it's possible an update reset their config value.

Didn't think to check that. Looks like it's set to just under 5k operations per graphite set, so even if the Iron + Pulverized Coke Coal isn't too accessible, it's at least a simpler (if energy-expensive) mode for bulk ore processing.

Production Science has had a few recipe redesigns over time, I may have overlooked something on the Automated Workbench (as it's not commonly used).

Fair. I've been favoring them for space and pollution reasons (since I've not gotten Automation 4 yet), but I can see that being pretty far outside of normal play.

 

[Golrith]

Ah yes, refined fuel is actually Diesel. Hmm, now why didn't I set that as Diesel? Weird, need to look into that. Looks like a serious mistake on my side, or I had an idea that I didn't fully implement.

Edit: Ah, I think I remember now. Was trying to make fuels power positive in the diesel generator, but the values I need to set don't register by IE (most likely overflowing a variable) resulting in infinite power from a single bucket. Missed reverting all the changes.

Production Science (and Military) - I reduced the cheapest component required purely to keep the JEI screen looking tidy. Think of it as a small bonus for using that Automated Workbench.

Titanium Block is an error, it's entries (ID <libvulpes:metal0:7>) need removing from _DisabledRecipes.zs and _DisabledTech.zs

 

[gattsuru]

The Advanced Coke Oven in the 1.23 update is very appreciated. I'd gone to multi-chunk burn rooms to get enough graphite for moderately sized reactor's rod/control blocks, and having other options makes that much less intimidating. Polluted Water is potentially cheezable, but the renewable sulfur may make it a valuable option for its own merits in a pinch.

Hooked seems very powerful.

Thanks for adding more varied drops to the Cyberdemons.

I'm not sure the new Graphite Electrode Chemical Plant Recipe is balanced correctly, unless you're intending to remove the old Workbench ones or make their plans much more difficult to unlock. 8 Coal Coke blocks (72 Coal Coke) is enough normally to make two Graphite Electrodes (32 Coal Coke each) and that's before including the the sulfuric acid.

 

[Golrith]

Had a few requests on Discord about the Coke Oven, so seemed a natural progression, with an alternative style of pollution.

Strange, I haven't touched Cyberdemons. What drops are you seeing?

Hmm, electrodes should be best made in the chemical plant giving full durability, instead of half that the normal method makes. I'll look at that again, might have got my maths wrong.

 

[gattsuru]

Huh. I swear I’d gotten Blaze Rods and Powder from blasting some with a laser rifle, in addition to the sulphur, cybernetic parts, and nether blasters, but maybe that was from unrelated enemies. They're not really worth hunting either way, but it's hard not to run into a few of em when working on Wither Skulls or Blaze Rods, and it's nice getting a drop that isn't best just thrown into the nearest lava pool.

For unrelated reasons, would it be reasonable to add Recycler recipes for the nether blaster?

The Metal Press recipe for Graphite Electrodes produces half-durability ones, and the acid and Coal coke premium (72 versus 64 for an equivalent number of smelts) makes sense there given the limited automation of electrode slots.

But the automated workbench recipe gives 100% durability electrodes for 32 coal coke. There will be a short period where players could have the Arc Furnace and Sulfuric Acid unlocked but not the Automated Workbench, but that doesn’t seem like a favored unlock path.

 

[Golrith]

But the automated workbench recipe gives 100% durability electrodes for 32 coal coke. There will be a short period where players could have the Arc Furnace and Sulfuric Acid unlocked but not the Automated Workbench, but that doesn’t seem like a favored unlock path.

Now that I overlooked.

 

[gattsuru]

I've been having problems crafting the Electrolytic Separator, having (finally) unlocked Space. JEI shows the recipe and will even load the components for it, but either doesn't give an output (from vanilla tables) or gives an output 'ghost' that does not give a tooltip and can't be pulled up (from Worktables). From Mekanism.zs

recipes.addShaped(<mekanism:machineblock2:4>,[[<advancedrocketry:productplate>,<mekanism:controlcircuit:2>,<advancedrocketry:productplate>],[<mekanism:gastank>.withTag({tier: 0}),<libvulpes:structuremachine>,<mekanism:gastank>.withTag({tier: 0})],[<advancedrocketry:productplate>,<mekanism:machineblock2:11>.withTag({tier: 0}),<advancedrocketry:productplate>]]);

Removing the '.withTag({tier:0})' aspects from each Gas Tanks matches the other crafts using those tanks and fixed the problem, and given that the other grades of gas tank aren't craftable or unlockable, probably not going to accidentally eat someone's expensive bottle o' deuterium. But weird since it should be valid either way, and even draws the recipe correctly.

recipes.addShaped(<mekanism:machineblock2:4>,[[<advancedrocketry:productplate>,<mekanism:controlcircuit:2>,<advancedrocketry:productplate>],[<mekanism:gastank>,<libvulpes:structuremachine>,<mekanism:gastank>],[<advancedrocketry:productplate>,<mekanism:machineblock2:11>.withTag({tier: 0}),<advancedrocketry:productplate>]]);

 

[Golrith]

Congrats on unlocking Space! That's a big achievement.

Gah, damn Mekansim NBT tags, constantly a bane of my life.

I think placing the tanks and breaking them makes the recipe craftable. This issue has been reported before, but I've overlooked it, so thanks for the reminder!

 

[gattsuru]

Primus versus Secondus was interesting.

Do you want reports regarding EMC issues? I know some modpacks just consider it more trouble than it's worth, and most of the positive feedback loops are both necessary and small enough that you'd normally be better off dropping another Factory0 drill: it'd be hilarious to see someone make a loop from the Advanced Rocketry Basic Circuit or Mekanism steel recipes, but not really something that blows up balance. There's some Hell Forge, Metal Press, and especially Assembler Recipes that are far enough off the return/time grid that they kinda make Energy Collectors and AntiMatter Relays a little superfluous. On the flip side, the Uranium Reprocessing recipe gets pretty badly obviated by EMC, and you'd have to run a fairly inefficient reactor pretty hard before unlocking Space for it to make much sense to use at all.

 

[Golrith]

Primus versus Secondus was interesting.

Do you want reports regarding EMC issues? I know some modpacks just consider it more trouble than it's worth, and most of the positive feedback loops are both necessary and small enough that you'd normally be better off dropping another Factory0 drill: it'd be hilarious to see someone make a loop from the Advanced Rocketry Basic Circuit or Mekanism steel recipes, but not really something that blows up balance. There's some Hell Forge, Metal Press, and especially Assembler Recipes that are far enough off the return/time grid that they kinda make Energy Collectors and AntiMatter Relays a little superfluous. On the flip side, the Uranium Reprocessing recipe gets pretty badly obviated by EMC, and you'd have to run a fairly inefficient reactor pretty hard before unlocking Space for it to make much sense to use at all.

In this pack, by EMC stage, you've done pretty much everything, so any exploits are an investment. I have been constantly tweaking EMC as recipes do change, but there's bound to be a lot of that has slipped through.
EMC can be never balanced, with so many ways to get infinite "resource X" but if there are any major EMC gains, I'll take a look (if it's just 1-10 points, hardly worth it)

 

[gattsuru]

Yeah, 10 EMC/craft wouldn't even cover electricity costs, and 10-20 EMC/tick still wouldn't make low-tier Energy Collectors useless. For the most part, from a balance perspective you've been generally most restrictive than not. It's more stuff on the scale of the Red Matter Assembler recipe (58,000 EMC/tick looped), Titanium Alumide Gear (~658 EMC/t) Metal Press and Rod (~220 EMC/t) Metal Press/Lathe Recipes, and Hell Forge Gold Ingot (~180EMC/t) and Ghast Tear (~307 EMC/t) recipes.

 

[Golrith]

Yeah, 10 EMC/craft wouldn't even cover electricity costs, and 10-20 EMC/tick still wouldn't make low-tier Energy Collectors useless. For the most part, from a balance perspective you've been generally most restrictive than not. It's more stuff on the scale of the Red Matter Assembler recipe (58,000 EMC/tick looped), Titanium Alumide Gear (~658 EMC/t) Metal Press and Rod (~220 EMC/t) Metal Press/Lathe Recipes, and Hell Forge Gold Ingot (~180EMC/t) and Ghast Tear (~307 EMC/t) recipes.

Hmm, red matter? Looks like I messed something up there. Gear looks like an oversight, Hell forge, err, yeahhh. Has a high RF cost, so reduces effectiveness a bit.

I'll take a look at those.

Edit: Hmm, red matter. Not sure what I was thinking there. Hmm, I think Dark Matter had no EMC originally, but with the extra DM tools added, I then added an EMC and forgot about the RM recipe. I think best thing there is to up the crafting recipe for that first bit of Red Matter so it matches the EMC value.

Edit2: Ok, RM recipe now much more expensive (better & easier to use condensers after your first one), Rods are now correctly half the cost of ingots, adjusted the EMC of Blaze Rods & Ghast Tears, made the other hell forge recipes slower based on the EMC difference (so gold is 8 times slower, glowstone twice as slow), making much more energy demand and slowing the EMC gain through this method.

This should push more to using the condensers for dumping raw ingots/materials, and/or using collectors.