I must be old because Reddit seems like a ton of randomness much like Twitter. Ive tried being a bit more active in the modded MC community, to give back so to speak but I just cant figure out how to navigate these sites you kids visit.
Lets talk about mod support
- Thread starter Wagon153
- Start date
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I must be old because Reddit seems like a ton of randomness much like Twitter. Ive tried being a bit more active in the modded MC community, to give back so to speak but I just cant figure out how to navigate these sites you kids visit.
It's not really random. It's split up into different "subreddits." Each of which has its own topic. For example, http://www.reddit.com/r/feedthebeast
Hmm, alright. So thats the FTB section of reddit. And each of those are different topics, which you click to read the replies. So its basically a really ugly forum? Lol, but I still cant figure out where the other half of conversations on twitter are located. Its like, all I can see are the answers. Wheres the freaking question lol? Thanks for helping an old man out, you're a good guy.
Yeah I think the whole "everything must interact" thing stems from having a modpack mindset. That in and of itself isn't bad, it's just probably not the same mindset as the modder.
Back during 1.6 I had countless people asking me to add Forge Multipart support into my own mods. At first I considered it, but after investigating it a bit I realized it was a major undertaking, would require FMP to be installed regardless of whether the person wanted it, and meant I couldn't update my mods until FMP was updated for each game version (which was a big deal since they were meant to be smaller mods that could be updated quicker than the more feature-filled ones). Not only that, but in Redstone Paste, I had come up with a system to let you use slabs to hide paste and sticky repeaters/comparators within the same block space. I was pretty proud of that, actually, because it further enhanced the vanilla feel of the mod, and did so without a mod dependency. Slabs from mods would work as well as long as they used Minecraft's base slab class.
I had people very happy that I'd decided to keep the mods simple, because they preferred smaller and lightweight packs, or just enough to enhance vanilla without significantly changing it. Yet at the same time, despite explaining my reasoning for not supporting it, and the built-in alternative feature, various people still weren't happy because they couldn't use it with all their FMP parts like they could with the various other mods that were using it at the time. So you just can't please everybody. Unfortunately you still end up feeling like you've disappointed or alienated people. And I'm sure that's only worse for some of these folks making far more popular mods.
But times are always changing. My downloads have only continued to climb, higher than they ever were, and yet the FMP requests nowadays are essentially zero. I'm definitely happy with the choice I made, and it just shows that you can never predict how these things will turn out. For all we know, even RF will vanish in six months. It's impossible to tell. I certainly wouldn't have ever guessed that FMP's adoption would have seemingly dropped off like this, after all.
Back during 1.6 I had countless people asking me to add Forge Multipart support into my own mods. At first I considered it, but after investigating it a bit I realized it was a major undertaking, would require FMP to be installed regardless of whether the person wanted it, and meant I couldn't update my mods until FMP was updated for each game version (which was a big deal since they were meant to be smaller mods that could be updated quicker than the more feature-filled ones). Not only that, but in Redstone Paste, I had come up with a system to let you use slabs to hide paste and sticky repeaters/comparators within the same block space. I was pretty proud of that, actually, because it further enhanced the vanilla feel of the mod, and did so without a mod dependency. Slabs from mods would work as well as long as they used Minecraft's base slab class.
I had people very happy that I'd decided to keep the mods simple, because they preferred smaller and lightweight packs, or just enough to enhance vanilla without significantly changing it. Yet at the same time, despite explaining my reasoning for not supporting it, and the built-in alternative feature, various people still weren't happy because they couldn't use it with all their FMP parts like they could with the various other mods that were using it at the time. So you just can't please everybody. Unfortunately you still end up feeling like you've disappointed or alienated people. And I'm sure that's only worse for some of these folks making far more popular mods.
But times are always changing. My downloads have only continued to climb, higher than they ever were, and yet the FMP requests nowadays are essentially zero. I'm definitely happy with the choice I made, and it just shows that you can never predict how these things will turn out. For all we know, even RF will vanish in six months. It's impossible to tell. I certainly wouldn't have ever guessed that FMP's adoption would have seemingly dropped off like this, after all.
I often find myself wondering about these sorts of things, so may as well ask while the topic is fresh. What exactly was/is wrong with multipart? As a player who likes long term worlds, I am interested in knowing what things cause the most lag.
Celestialphoenix
Too Much Free Time
I think a lot of the multipart mods use tile entities to store the extra data [instead of regular blocks]- this in turn takes more processing power compared to regular blocks.
Also to make pipes ect work through them would require re-working those pipes to use the multiparts.
-and the more APIs/sub mods you rely on- the more there is to go wrong. [both installation, and technical work within the code]
Also to make pipes ect work through them would require re-working those pipes to use the multiparts.
(Allegedly adding a block around a pipe is easy compared to making the pipe work through the block)
-so it'll be a lot of extra work for the modder, when they could be adding more unique/compelling content instead.-and the more APIs/sub mods you rely on- the more there is to go wrong. [both installation, and technical work within the code]
Arent EU pipes multiparts themselves? Does simply having FMP installed add to the burden? I rarely use them and could do without.
Celestialphoenix covered a lot of it. Block and render updates are also already expensive processes, and handling them for multiple items within a single block just takes that much more to accomplish. Even if you only put one of a particular object in that block space, for something as simple as a torch (which FMP replaces with its own version, like levers and other objects), there's still a little bit more overhead than if it were a standard vanilla block. It all adds up, especially for those who build large bases.
I don't want to sound like I'm disparaging FMP at all, because what it accomplishes is actually a pretty cool function, and they obviously put a lot of work into it. But I think FMP is used by people mostly for aesthetics, and for me personally, aesthetics just isn't worth a loss in performance. A base can be built a bit differently to work around a lot of these issues, just as we did before FMP existed. I just need the occasional cover or something, which I feel like a simpler mod like Immibis' Microblocks could accomplish just as easily sometimes.
Celestialphoenix
Too Much Free Time
From a gameplay perspective- I'm not the biggest fan of them.
A lot of minecraft design is based around '1 block per block' -its pretty much an unwritten rule in my book, yes theres a few non cube blocks like stairs/fence, or slabs that stack into each other. But overall its still 1 block per block.
-I generally see micropart heavy builds as a general mush of small stuff that becomes too detailed to fit the overall MC aesthetic, it breaks the sense of continuity and consistency.
-As for the interaction with other blocks [torches/pipes ect]; this cuts against the design and engineering side of the game, oversimplifying a lot of build/layouts, and actually discouraging player creativity through making the game less challenging/engaging.
There are uses that make good looking results, but overall the amount of options/positions and detailing makes them harder to work with than plain old vanilla style. [custom stairs, columns and sidings can look pretty cool]
If you're a decent builder- they're a useful tool. They won't magically make you a better builder by themselves.
I will agree with Fyber though; its a brilliant piece of code that does some very cool stuff.-I generally see micropart heavy builds as a general mush of small stuff that becomes too detailed to fit the overall MC aesthetic, it breaks the sense of continuity and consistency.
-As for the interaction with other blocks [torches/pipes ect]; this cuts against the design and engineering side of the game, oversimplifying a lot of build/layouts, and actually discouraging player creativity through making the game less challenging/engaging.
There are uses that make good looking results, but overall the amount of options/positions and detailing makes them harder to work with than plain old vanilla style. [custom stairs, columns and sidings can look pretty cool]
If you're a decent builder- they're a useful tool. They won't magically make you a better builder by themselves.
I'm just going to leave this here. It's a work in progress (hence the unresolved references) but will probably eventually be an in-game tome with Thermal Foundation.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ln7aSAvtsZ_NW3HZCphqvcxUEoMw2-OUHpHOCVKl5Xw/edit?usp=sharing
Hopefully that will at least explain what RF is meant to be, lore-wise. As far as mods adopting it? If it fits, go for it. If it doesn't, don't, and don't cave to outside pressure. Also, don't be a jerk.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ln7aSAvtsZ_NW3HZCphqvcxUEoMw2-OUHpHOCVKl5Xw/edit?usp=sharing
Hopefully that will at least explain what RF is meant to be, lore-wise. As far as mods adopting it? If it fits, go for it. If it doesn't, don't, and don't cave to outside pressure. Also, don't be a jerk.
FMP and similar systems work by making "wrapper" TileEntities which store the internal list of "contained" blocks at a coordinate. The problem is threefold:
- Fetching a TileEntity at a position is an order of magnitude slower than fetching blocks and metadata values, meaning that "get machine/block/etc at XYZ" becomes a much more expensive operation. Given the huge need for such calls in things like piping networks and/or power systems, this is a serious problem.
- Old "logic" like "the pipe is made of a contiguous network of pipe blocks" no longer work, because there may be FMP blocks in the middle of the network that nonetheless "are" pipes. Thus this means rewriting every bit of "get machine type at XYZ" and "test all pipe connection" logic.
- FMP is more complex than MC can easily handle, and when it bugs out, so do the contained blocks. This is the mechanic behind the horrific lag that TE itemducts used to cause; when a multipart tile starts to lag, the duct inside gets marked and then TE gets blamed.
hey, thats neat, thermal expansion lore. Kind of like how applied energistics 2 implies that the tech comes from aliens. Mods need more of that sort of stuff to give them personality. Cant wait to find out what the heck invar is supposed to be, lol.
Ok, that makes sense. Maybe this whole microblock idea should have stayed dead with redpower, eh?
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Invar in real life is used for items that need to be precise, such as clocks, due to it's lack of reaction to temperature(most metals will expand when exposed to heat.)
I think the entire scenario is stupid. Mod developers should not be pressured by the community to add support for an energy system JUST because alot of people use it, and they should NEVER, EVER make it so you can turn said energy system into your energy. That defeats the entire goddamned purpose of the mod in my opinion.
Yes, why not convert thaumcraft essences into RF while we're suggesting weird things
There's a mod that does this....
But honestly for that type thing, or RoC it fits better as an addon crossover mod. Not something people should demand mod authors add. While my packs tend to use RF as the base, and RF compatible tech mods have a higher chance of being in my packs, I don't think all mods should add RF. Not if they have a truly unique system of their own.
Pressuring mod authors for anything is bad.
That is not however the same thing as me stating RF compatible tech mods are prefered in my packs. I am not telling mod authors they HAVE to use RF, just that thats what my packs use.
On the other hand people said BC power couldn't be recreated using RF, and it was.
