KingLemming speaks!

[zemerick]

The issue with RoCs extractor is when you use it with nether ores. 10x is very likely, along with iridium byproducts and things like uranium, one 64x64 ender quarry in the nether gave me over 100k Ingots/gems, my mining days were very much over.

But maybe this is the reason behind its large multiplier, to end mining needs, i couldn't even imagine running it like reika did with all those borers

10x is still a lot less than infinite though.

Completely mistaken am I? I see tons of people just feeding it enough torque and speed to do all the 4 steps at the same time, since power can be somewhat trivialised anyway. I am aware that it is not the optimal way of doing it, but it seems to be what most people are doing anyway.

Unless they are running it at 512 MW, which is quite a bit, they are doing it wrong and massively slowing it down.

I am personally concerned that mods in the future HAVE to be "over the top" and "ridiculous OP" to even get a shot at getting into modpacks, and it all just turning into a slippery slope of crappy mods. Most people wont ever choose the 2-3x solutions if there is a 5x alternative. And as mentioned several times now I fear this just leads to modders being forced to make their mods even more OP for them to even get considered. Where the heck does it end? Does this "arms race" really give us higher quality mods/gaming experiences? I sure as hell don't think constantly being pushed into THE most efficient(read most OP) solution will.

Except that isn't what we see.

Consider a couple simple examples: Blaze rod duplication, Netherrack -> Magma Crucible -> Magmatic Dynamo -> Magma Crucible and finally HV Solars.

The first 1 has been removed, the second nerfed, and the third is rarely used. None of them have hurt or prevented other mods. This despite all 3 being very popular at times and extremely powerful/efficient.

Basically, you're worried that people will stop making fun and interesting stuff, because everyone will do boring things. The fact that this is a game we are talking about, means that will always balance out. Plus, it being a popular game, means there is a ton of room for differing opinions. People like us will always be trying different and cool stuff, and youtube videos will always be heavily biased to the more interesting things. This will self balance it out. Always.[/quote]

 

[rhn]

Basically, you're worried that people will stop making fun and interesting stuff, because everyone will do boring things.

Hmm no that's not quite what I am trying to say.
I am very afraid that future "high quality balanced" mods will not get a chance to get into the popular modpacks(which face it is where the majority of the players get their mods) simply because they do not do x5 ore processing or 500% power efficiency. And maybe "low quality OP single block machines do it all" mods will because they are more "efficient" with their 10x and 1000%.


Would there be anything wrong with modders agreeing to set some baselines? This would allow multiple mods to be in the same pack without anyone feeling they HAVE to go with one mod because it is more "efficient". It would allow people on servers to progress out different paths, except of just all building their own identical setups(I loved this in 1.4.7, and I used to see very diverse creations on the servers I was on).
I would also love to have a RoC extractor setup along side my TE3, IC2E, etc. solutions, but the 5x is just a gamebreaker for me in comparison and I cant config it.
It would also make modpack balancing a LOT easier.


(Also, there is the little voice in my brain bugging me that the "physics" of the 1m^3 of raw ore already now has been established to contain more than 5/9th pure metal(9 ingots per 1m^3 metal blocks). Think 30% metal grade is pretty high in RL and only really possible with stuff like Iron and Aluminium. Forget about stuff like copper, its like 0.1% ).

 

[Bigpak]

Completely mistaken am I? I see tons of people just feeding it enough torque and speed to do all the 4 steps at the same time, since power can be somewhat trivialised anyway. I am aware that it is not the optimal way of doing it, but it seems to be what most people are doing anyway.


I am personally concerned that mods in the future HAVE to be "over the top" and "ridiculous OP" to even get a shot at getting into modpacks, and it all just turning into a slippery slope of crappy mods. Most people wont ever choose the 2-3x solutions if there is a 5x alternative. And as mentioned several times now I fear this just leads to modders being forced to make their mods even more OP for them to even get considered. Where the heck does it end? Does this "arms race" really give us higher quality mods/gaming experiences? I sure as hell don't think constantly being pushed into THE most efficient(read most OP) solution will.

People that just smash power into machines in rotarycraft are ignorant fools if they are not optimizing it with gearboxes, CVT units etc. I'm sorry that you think because of the 5x ore multiplication that all mod makers will be pressured into doing the same since people wont use the normal 2-3x ore duplication. In my opinion, that is where I disagree. I still use PLENTY of thermal expansion, ic2 and factorization alongside rotarycraft. I find no issues with this and if you think it is overpowered that is your opinion and I respect that but I am stating that I disagree with it. For me it feels like you haven't done rotarycraft or experimented with it a whole lot as you are saying things about it that aren't true, such as everyone shoving power into an extractor and make it go extremely slow to just get 5x processing power. Most of the people I know that actually have done rotarycraft use gearboxes or CVT units to optimize efficiency.

Either way, at the end of the day it is ultimately the players choice of what mods to use and what mods to not use.

 

[zemerick]

Hmm no that's not quite what I am trying to say.
I am very afraid that future "high quality balanced" mods will not get a chance to get into the popular modpacks(which face it is where the majority of the players get their mods) simply because they do not do x5 ore processing or 500% power efficiency. And maybe "low quality OP single block machines do it all" mods will because they are more "efficient" with their 10x and 1000%.


Would there be anything wrong with modders agreeing to set some baselines? This would allow multiple mods to be in the same pack without anyone feeling they HAVE to go with one mod because it is more "efficient". It would allow people on servers to progress out different paths, except of just all building their own identical setups(I loved this in 1.4.7, and I used to see very diverse creations on the servers I was on).
I would also love to have a RoC extractor setup along side my TE3, IC2E, etc. solutions, but the 5x is just a gamebreaker for me in comparison and I cant config it.
It would also make modpack balancing a LOT easier.

Past and present modpacks disagree. The interest of the person designing the modpacks is what determines the mods in it. Monster for example has tons of mods that don't fall under that.

Then there's Horizons. Specifically designed to showcase some of the less popular mods.

(Also, there is the little voice in my brain bugging me that the "physics" of the 1m^3 of raw ore already now has been established to contain more than 5/9th pure metal(9 ingots per 1m^3 metal blocks). Think 30% metal grade is pretty high in RL and only really possible with stuff like Iron and Aluminium. Forget about stuff like copper, its like 0.1% ).

Cuprite contains OVER 88% copper. In fact, out of the main Copper Ores, the lowest one is 32%.

This does go to show what I would like to see though. Instead of a system of basic ore multiplication, I would like to see ores with a varying percentage of the targeted element in them, and then ore processing would simply yield a percentage of that. This would work with a melting and millibucket system since it would obviously frequently yield less than whole ingots or even nuggets. This also reasonably caps out any processing at simply 100% efficient. ( Unless of course someone simply decides to say screw it and go with greater than 100% efficiency, but there's nothing you can do about that. It was their choice. )

 

[HeilMewTwo]

Hmm no that's not quite what I am trying to say.
I am very afraid that future "high quality balanced" mods will not get a chance to get into the popular modpacks(which face it is where the majority of the players get their mods) simply because they do not do x5 ore processing or 500% power efficiency. And maybe "low quality OP single block machines do it all" mods will because they are more "efficient" with their 10x and 1000%.


Would there be anything wrong with modders agreeing to set some baselines? This would allow multiple mods to be in the same pack without anyone feeling they HAVE to go with one mod because it is more "efficient". It would allow people on servers to progress out different paths, except of just all building their own identical setups(I loved this in 1.4.7, and I used to see very diverse creations on the servers I was on).
I would also love to have a RoC extractor setup along side my TE3, IC2E, etc. solutions, but the 5x is just a gamebreaker for me in comparison and I cant config it.
It would also make modpack balancing a LOT easier.


(Also, there is the little voice in my brain bugging me that the "physics" of the 1m^3 of raw ore already now has been established to contain more than 5/9th pure metal(9 ingots per 1m^3 metal blocks). Think 30% metal grade is pretty high in RL and only really possible with stuff like Iron and Aluminium. Forget about stuff like copper, its like 0.1% ).

I think that you should try to seriously set it up before you say that it is a gamebreaker. Your attitude reminds me of mine about bees before I tried them. Infinite resources? That is just way too op! Obviously I tried it out and did a complete 180.

Also reika explains the reasoning behind the 5 ingots based on real life constructs. I think that you are forgetting that we are producing ingots out of a cube with the dimensions of a metre.

 

[dothrom]

Also, you'll be happy for your extractor(s) when you decide to build a fusion reactor.
(I fear I'll never get to play with one)

 

[HeilMewTwo]

Also, you'll be happy for your extractor(s) when you decide to build a fusion reactor.
(I fear I'll never get to play with one)

I know, all this time playing and I still have never built one outside creative.

 

[zemerick]

Also, you'll be happy for your extractor(s) when you decide to build a fusion reactor.
(I fear I'll never get to play with one)

It's not that hard to build a fusion reactor, and really...the extractor doesn't help a whole lot. Yes, you'll use quite a lot of iron...but the wool is crazy.

In total I think I quarried out about 300 chunks ( 3 QuarryPlus quarries, and 3 regular Quarries ), with about 1/3 of it going through the grinder not the extractor, and I used maybe half of the Iron I got. The Magnetite was a bit of an issue because I didn't silk touch initially, so I did a 4th QPQ down to layer 59 and only ran the Magnetite...and had a ton left over.

Absolutely spend a lot of time in creative designing it. I ran into quite a few design issues, and if you need, feel free to ask for some advice. The best part of the fusion reactor is figuring things out for yourself though.

It took about 2 days to assemble btw.

 

[Golrith]

TBH, ore gen is so high in Minecraft, you don't even need ore doubling.

In my personal pack I reduce ore gen to roughly 1/4 of default (using custom designed veins of Poor, Normal and Dense ore types, so it's still the same amount of mining, just less shinies). My pack does include Mekansim, plus other ways of obtaining resources (from adventuring in dungeons, farming mobs for resources, "transmuting" resources to other resources, or growing resources). You are semi-forced to plan your resource usage, and ore processing becomes a vital component instead of something to do.

But, I do agree, in general, most mods do try out and outdo other mods. I commonly find I have to "nerf" config values to reduce generation, change energy costs, etc or change recipes to something I feel is more sensible for what the shiny toy offers. But, this is a natural thing. There's a new thing "on the market", so you want to show it off, so you make it noticable. You tend to find once it's noticed, later version "tone down" things.

 

[rhn]

Cuprite contains OVER 88% copper. In fact, out of the main Copper Ores, the lowest one is 32%.

This does go to show what I would like to see though. Instead of a system of basic ore multiplication, I would like to see ores with a varying percentage of the targeted element in them, and then ore processing would simply yield a percentage of that. This would work with a melting and millibucket system since it would obviously frequently yield less than whole ingots or even nuggets. This also reasonably caps out any processing at simply 100% efficient. ( Unless of course someone simply decides to say screw it and go with greater than 100% efficiency, but there's nothing you can do about that. It was their choice. )

Sure, the main desired part of the Cuprite ore, namely the Cuprite crystals contain something like 88% copper. But you cant go out in nature and mine a 1^3m of pure Cuprite crystals(the biggest ever crystals found seems to be a couple centimetres across). You need to mine a whole lot or rocks containing the Cuprite crystals and then process it later to get the Cuprite out. And then process the Cuprite to get the Copper out.
And it is that step of "Cuprite amount in the rocks" that ruins your percentage and frustrates a lot of miners everywhere I think.

 

[Vasa]

if you all want real life ores and processing then dont play with these normal mods,go play with terrafirmacraft or go outside play football or something. ..

 

[rhn]

if you all want real life ores and processing then dont play with these normal mods,go play with terrafirmacraft or go outside play football or something. ..

So you are pulling the "Don't expect realism from a MC mod" card in defence now lol? In defence of RoC?
Directly from the RotaryCraft Website:

RotaryCraft is designed to be as realistic as possible, using real machine specifications for power generation/consumption and real physical laws to govern the machines' behavior. For example, a hot machine will cool according to the laws of heat convection, shafts can handle torques up to what is allowed by their shear strength, and effects of excessive pressure or temperature must be considered.

RoC is one of the only mods I would expect to get these things right tbh.

 

[Bigpak]

I honestly don't see this discussion going anywhere on either end

 

[dothrom]

I honestly don't see this discussion going anywhere on either end

Agreed. There's clearly different people want their game to act differently (big surprise right?). Some people want only 'X' amount of ore output, others want Y, and still others want Z. Some people feel there is a output/efficiency "arms race". Others, including myself, feel there isn't. And if there is or isn't such a race, most of us hardly have a say in the matter, as most of us are not mod authors. Some authors may feel pressured to play into this concept, others will not, that's how things go.

When it comes to packs it's up to modpack authors and/or their players to customize settings and what mods to use. And especially what to use/not use in game (aside from perhaps challenge packs such as Agrarian Skies, but that's the point of those modpacks).

Telling mod authors that they can or cannot put feature A, B, or C in their mods because it will break some mostly unspoken and not entirely agreed upon rule is asinine. If you don't like a feature, then either a) don't use it in game, b) use configs or some such to disable/alter it c) don't have the mod installed/enabled.

TL;DR. People have opinions. They often will result in disagreements. Focus on playing the game the way you like and stop telling other people they have to make the game the way you want it.

 

[Bigpak]

Agreed. There's clearly different people want their game to act differently (big surprise right?). Some people want only 'X' amount of ore output, others want Y, and still others want Z. Some people feel there is a output/efficiency "arms race". Others, including myself, feel there isn't. And if there is or isn't such a race, most of us hardly have a say in the matter, as most of us are not mod authors. Some authors may feel pressured to play into this concept, others will not, that's how things go.

When it comes to packs it's up to modpack authors and/or their players to customize settings and what mods to use. And especially what to use/not use in game (aside from perhaps challenge packs such as Agrarian Skies, but that's the point of those mudpacks).

Telling mod authors that they can or cannot put feature A, B, or C in their mods because it will break some mostly unspoken and not entirely agreed upon rule is asinine. If you don't like a feature, then either a) don't use it in game, b) use configs or some such to disable/alter it c) don't have the mod installed/enabled.

TL;DR. People have opinions. They often will result in disagreements. Focus on playing the game the way you like and stop telling other people they have to make the game the way you want it.

I couldn't have said it better.

I honestly fear when I partake in these discussions that I come off as a bit harsh or abrasive but I'm really not, I just have strong opinions on certain aspects.

 

[Pyure]

Take the IC2 example which yields something like 2.6x. You need to set up Macerator->Orewashing->Thermal centrifuge->Furnace. You need automation for each step, as well as autocrafting of products of each step(turning tiny piles of dust into normal piles of dust ready to be smelted). It is a painstakingly slow process at default, but can be overclocked in which case the Orewashers and Centrifuges in particular will require a fuckton of power(Currently have a setup in my world of 4x centrifuges each consuming 1k+ EU/t to keep up).

If I am not totally mistaken, the RoC approach is putting down a Extractor, giving it enough power, put ores in one end and get x5 out ready to be smelted in the other end. And it is not really like the mod makes it hard to produce large amounts of power now is it?

I realize there are a lot of counter arguments to this already, but as someone who has done a ton of each set up, I need to agree that the x5 setup is really easy to do considering the gains made.

Its all well and good that you need to use clever CVT/redstone/gear-ratios to keep it energy-efficient, but at the end of the day, those are just perks on top of the insane ore multiplication. You CAN simply run it with massive inefficiency if you want to, and get that x5 (mininum) output.

The IC2 thing is a lot harder to manage well. Its slow, its multiple-pieces whether you optimize it or not, and it doesn't pay off as well.

That said, the issue with the extractor isn't that x5 is unbalanced, but that it balances really poorly with other mods.

x5 iron barely feels like enough in the early stages of the game.[DOUBLEPOST=1409158994][/DOUBLEPOST]

I am personally concerned that mods in the future HAVE to be "over the top" and "ridiculous OP" to even get a shot at getting into modpacks, and it all just turning into a slippery slope of crappy mods. Most people wont ever choose the 2-3x solutions if there is a 5x alternative. And as mentioned several times now I fear this just leads to modders being forced to make their mods even more OP for them to even get considered. Where the heck does it end? Does this "arms race" really give us higher quality mods/gaming experiences? I sure as hell don't think constantly being pushed into THE most efficient(read most OP) solution will.

I've been warning about this arms race for over a year now. I was glad to see KL highlight it.

2 years from now I'm worried x5 multiplication will be utter crap. You'll need to use UberMod's x14 Oreinator or you're falling behind like a dumbass.

 

[dothrom]

2 years from now I'm worried x5 multiplication will be utter crap. You'll need to use UberMod's x14 Oreinator or you're falling behind like a dumbass.

This needs to be a thing. Also, should be powered with a redstone engine.

 

[Pyure]

This needs to be a thing. Also, should be powered with a redstone engine.

Right, Redstone-engine-powered Oreinator (trademark, all rights reserved, stealThisNameAndIWillSueYourAss)

 

[midi_sec]

I am personally concerned that mods in the future HAVE to be "over the top" and "ridiculous OP" to even get a shot at getting into modpacks, and it all just turning into a slippery slope of crappy mods. Most people wont ever choose the 2-3x solutions if there is a 5x alternative. And as mentioned several times now I fear this just leads to modders being forced to make their mods even more OP for them to even get considered. Where the heck does it end? Does this "arms race" really give us higher quality mods/gaming experiences? I sure as hell don't think constantly being pushed into THE most efficient(read most OP) solution will.

imo it shouldn't matter the number of times an ore processor multiplies the ore, as long as the mod author has designed his mod to need that much ore. I think Reika has done pretty good in this sense. Most people won't pick up rotarycraft. It's learning curve is as steep as picking raisins out of a running blender. But those that do learn to use it and use it properly can become god.

Talking about that arms race... It's only a race if mod authors make it so. If somebody releases 20x ore processing in one of their mods without the actual need for it, that's got tryhard written all over it. We just need to pay attention to the actual mod content, and not single blocks that Yes, can be very OP when taken out of context of their mod.

 

[midi_sec]

2 years from now I'm worried x5 multiplication will be utter crap. You'll need to use UberMod's x14 Oreinator or you're falling behind like a dumbass.

I missed this. Falling behind what or who, exactly?

If you're worried about modpacks needing or not needing ore processing with efficiency like that, maybe we should be having a different conversation entirely? It's the pack makers that choose the mods to include. If they don't balance it, or have no need for that type of ore multiplication, that's that tryhard I was talking about last post.

On the other side of that is ore starvation. If you load your pack with every heavily metal dependent mod, that's your prerogative, but you need to balance it with ore output. If you add 5 mods that were designed around 2x ore processing, your pack isn't balanced for 2x processing, you actually need a bit more than that in order to not "fall behind"

Minecraft is a finite world. Barring the use of magic voodoo produce-ore-from-nothing blocks, if mods are going to keep increasing component and material costs then there really isn't much choice but to ore multiply.