KingLemming speaks!

[asb3pe]

I just started reading, and his first response is... uh... interesting?

FTW, after he gets serious (he might have been serious the whole time), I happen to agree with him completely about the "arms race" between mods to double-triple-quad-quint ore production. It's not that there are "bad people" in the mod community (you're all beyond terrific for doing what you do), it's simply an unfortunate aspect of human competitiveness and our drive to succeed, I suppose...

Anyhow enough of my blabbering, go read! This ought to be good.

http://www.reddit.com/r/feedthebeas...kinglemming_founder_of_thermal_expansion_and/

 

[dothrom]

I don't think that the "arms race" is quite as bad as it seems. For the most part, the mods that go beyond doubling (or tripling if you make rich slag in TE) usually have a balance point to it. Mekanism has more and more infrastructure you have to build for each stage past 2x. And while RoC's 3x is very easy to achive, the 5x has a rather complicated power setup (untill you have a lot of power and stop worrying about it). RoC also has the balance point of while yes, you can get an average of 5x rather quickly, it's a very resource intensive mod (at least for iron).

What I'd be more concerned with is the appearance of a mod(s) that give you better than 2 or 3x for little to no extra cost. But I don't know of those.

 

[zemerick]

I don't think that the "arms race" is quite as bad as it seems. For the most part, the mods that go beyond doubling (or tripling if you make rich slag in TE) usually have a balance point to it. Mekanism has more and more infrastructure you have to build for each stage past 2x. And while RoC's 3x is very easy to achive, the 5x has a rather complicated power setup (untill you have a lot of power and stop worrying about it). RoC also has the balance point of while yes, you can get an average of 5x rather quickly, it's a very resource intensive mod (at least for iron).

What I'd be more concerned with is the appearance of a mod(s) that give you better than 2 or 3x for little to no extra cost. But I don't know of those.

I agree, and the whole thing is further made moot by pretty much everything being easily made renewable.

If I ever get around to it, I plan on making a modpack, config, and minetweaker all based around removing as much as possible from being renewable, with a few exceptions such as trees or wheat. Seeing as how much is renewaboe though, it's perfectly likely I never get around to it

 

[rhn]

I just started reading, and his first response is... uh... interesting?

FTW, after he gets serious (he might have been serious the whole time), I happen to agree with him completely about the "arms race" between mods to double-triple-quad-quint ore production. It's not that there are "bad people" in the mod community (you're all beyond terrific for doing what you do), it's simply an unfortunate aspect of human competitiveness and our drive to succeed, I suppose...

Anyhow enough of my blabbering, go read! This ought to be good.

http://www.reddit.com/r/feedthebeas...kinglemming_founder_of_thermal_expansion_and/

I kinda agree with this and think it is an unfortunate development. More and more mods seem to try and out-perform each other in ever increasing ways, and it just get to the point of being rather ridiculous in the end if people don't stop up and reconsider.

The ore processing is a rather good point imo. The ore doubling is a pretty well established baseline by now. You can crush up the rocks and get out another 100% metal. Over time several mods then wanted to add further complexity/tiers to their machinery and with a lot of work you could get up to 2.5-3x with a lot of time/energy/effort involved. And all the mods seemed to agree on this being a nice "guideline", as it kept all the mods balanced(you could choose one without feeling you were loosing out from another) and it gave you a reason to further invest in higher tiers of tech and automation etc.

But sadly as you might imagine, if someone decides to make a mod and then make the baseline ore output x3, x4, x5 or whatever, this mod is then the most efficient and the vast majority of players will "exploit" this mod then to get that increase in output. This results in the balance between mods being completely broken and whichever mod that has the highest ore output multiplier is suddenly the "cookie cutter" setup.

So we have x5 ore output, now what? Do every other mod have to adjust their ore output to match to have a chance at competing? Do we have to reduce ore spawns to balance for the new bonus income in metals?(if so then this completely ruins it for any mod not updating to the x5 as you would be starved in metals if you choose it). Do the next modder that want to have his mod be the most popular have to use x6 ore output? x10? x100? Where does it end?

And this not only applies to ore processing. With RFs divorce from MJ the old "rule of thumb" balance points seems to have gone(TE3 kept it sort of by basing dynamos of BC engines, other mods not so much). For mods to be considered it seems they now have to be better/more efficient than the rest in producing power, resulting in the world of complete abundance we seem to have now.


I would personally hope for some more uniformity in the future. For modders to work out a basic guideline of how much metal it is "physically" possible to extract from a block of ore(I always thought x3 was a good upper limit). And any attempts on going from the x2(or other baseline) towards this theoretical max should only be possible with ever increasing complexity/time/power. Same for power: how much energy is it theoretically possible to get out of a bucket of fuel, an ingot of "uranium", a bucket of steam, etc. Easy off the bat solutions should never be performing at max, but something like 50% max. With increasing complexity/resources/whatever you might get near 75-90% efficiency.

 

[Bigpak]

About the ore processing etc. I think that Rotarycraft is actually balanced in the fact that it requires a massive infrastructure to be able to do 5x ore processing and even then, it requires a large amount of power to be able to do it efficiently. I honestly hope it never changes with Rotarycraft as I find it to be balanced. I haven't toyed with mekanism yet but from the looks of it it actually looks pretty fun. I like thermal expansion as well but after doing 30 worlds with thermal expansion you get bored. I've started a world with rotarycraft and I still haven't made all of the machines from it and haven't started on any other major mods (applied energistics, thaumcraft, buildcraft, or any of the others.) Rotarycraft is the one mod that I think x5 duplication is justified currently (The only one I have actually played with). I have not tried mekanism yet though so that could be interesting.

If their was a mod like lets say dartcraft in its current state that had x5 or x10 ore duplication I simply would not use that part of dartcraft as I do not find that fun or entertaining. However, if someone found that fun, I would be happy for them and not bash them and say its overpowered, it just isn't for me if its that simple and you get that much as I would get bored, for some it is plenty interesting and allows them to build more without focusing on a massive infrastructure.

 

[Strikingwolf]

About the ore processing etc. I think that Rotarycraft is actually balanced in the fact that it requires a massive infrastructure to be able to do 5x ore processing and even then, it requires a large amount of power to be able to do it efficiently. I honestly hope it never changes with Rotarycraft as I find it to be balanced. I haven't toyed with mekanism yet but from the looks of it it actually looks pretty fun. I like thermal expansion as well but after doing 30 worlds with thermal expansion you get bored. I've started a world with rotarycraft and I still haven't made all of the machines from it and haven't started on any other major mods (applied energistics, thaumcraft, buildcraft, or any of the others.) Rotarycraft is the one mod that I think x5 duplication is justified currently (The only one I have actually played with). I have not tried mekanism yet though so that could be interesting.

@Padfoote mention the AC engine extractor please

 

[rhn]

About the ore processing etc. I think that Rotarycraft is actually balanced in the fact that it requires a massive infrastructure to be able to do 5x ore processing and even then, it requires a large amount of power to be able to do it efficiently. I honestly hope it never changes with Rotarycraft as I find it to be balanced.

I haven't personally set up the RoC x5 setup(I as you might have guessed think it is way too OP), but is it really that much harder to accomplish compared to the IC2, Factorization, Thermal expansion, etc. that all seems to agree on the 2-3x range?

Take the IC2 example which yields something like 2.6x. You need to set up Macerator->Orewashing->Thermal centrifuge->Furnace. You need automation for each step, as well as autocrafting of products of each step(turning tiny piles of dust into normal piles of dust ready to be smelted). It is a painstakingly slow process at default, but can be overclocked in which case the Orewashers and Centrifuges in particular will require a fuckton of power(Currently have a setup in my world of 4x centrifuges each consuming 1k+ EU/t to keep up).

If I am not totally mistaken, the RoC approach is putting down a Extractor, giving it enough power, put ores in one end and get x5 out ready to be smelted in the other end. And it is not really like the mod makes it hard to produce large amounts of power now is it?

I really don't see how you can say the 5x is balanced compared to other mods. I would think RoC would be balanced if it gave 2.5-2.7x compared to the stuff you have to go through in other mods to get anywhere near that.

 

[Zenthon_127]

The only mod I've seen pull of 4x and 5x in a balanced way, IMO, is Mekanism. The 5x setup for that can easily fill an entire room.

And yes, I think KL's referring to RoC with the 13x ore processing joke. Sad fact is that RoC actually CAN multiply certain things by 13x, which is also why you can't put Mek and RoC in the same pack together without ore duping.

 

[Strikingwolf]

If I am not totally mistaken, the RoC approach is putting down a Extractor, giving it enough power, put ores in one end and get x5 out ready to be smelted in the other end.

Completely mistaken. Because the extractor has 4 stages and each one has different power requirements (torque * speed) it is most beneficial to set up some type of redstone-shenanigans to control the cvc's allowing you to get the necessary requirements. Also, the stages are torque-speed-speed-torque making it a pain with most redstone stuff

 

[dothrom]

Completely mistaken. Because the extractor has 4 stages and each one has different power requirements (torque * speed) it is most beneficial to set up some type of redstone-shenanigans to control the cvc's allowing you to get the necessary requirements. Also, the stages are torque-speed-speed-torque making it a pain with most redstone stuff

Agreed. Furthermore, to address the problem of exploiting that was occurring (people using just the extractor), Reika created Tiered power converters that mean you have to work your way through the tech tree anyway. Each stage of which taking considerable infrastructure. And the whole system will be very VERY slow until you get the higher power generators not only made, but sustained. And to add to that, RoC consumes huge amounts of iron/steel the whole way (which is part of the whole point of the extractor).

Now, there's still lots of room to exploit this, or get around problems (like using mekanism and a digital miner, quarry plus, etc.). But balancing one mod against every other mod is extremely difficult, if not impossible. And to say "this mod isn't conforming to our old core mods", I would say "Good!" variety is the spice of live (and very much so that of mods).

 

[Bigpak]

In my opinion rotarycraft is a lot more complex to setup than thermal expansion. It's not for everyone and I respect that. Different strokes for different folks.

And I honestly hope that no mod maker changes something that they made for themselves or for fun because people pressure them as they think it is unbalanced, not all mods can be balanced with another

I've gotten bored with thermal expansion and ic2 lately and I'm doing rotarycraft and I am quite enjoying the change and different mechanics.

 

[Padfoote]

@Padfoote mention the AC engine extractor please

That is also anything but efficient in terms of processing speed and downtime of the engine. It's easy to do, but just barely meets the minimums for the extractor.

In my opinion rotarycraft is a lot more complex to setup than thermal expansion.

I absolutely agree.

 

[Bigpak]

Am I the only one though that hopes the extractor doesn't get massively nerfed because of people complaining a little? I feel myself that it is balanced on what it requires to run and get setup to run effeciently, but what do you think?

 

[Kirameki]

Something to consider - RoC plainly admits it's intended for OP endgame power/ore/etc., so while sure, 5x is pretty crazy, you can't really fault it for doing what it's designed for.
(Personally, I never bother with redstone extractor shenanigans, I just build a 8MW solar plant and let it run 24/7 until I get a reactor up.)
Inter-mod balance *would* be nice, sure, but it should be something set in configs rather than forced on players by default. As little as people use it, I have to admit after giving it a try recently without external power, Forestry got balance right IMO. You can even tweak outputs/consumption levels in the configs, which is something you rarely see.

 

[Padfoote]

Am I the only one though that hopes the extractor doesn't get massively nerfed because of people complaining a little? I feel myself that it is balanced on what it requires to run and get setup to run effeciently, but what do you think?

Big reward for big investment is what Reika balances around. I'm not concerned.

 

[wolfenstein19]

In my opinion rotarycraft is a lot more complex to setup than thermal expansion.

Thats not an opinion, thats physical reality.

 

[zemerick]

@Padfoote mention the AC engine extractor please

Well, seeing as I designed the same thing ( though a little different than Padfoote did ), take my word when I say you pay for going that route.

Processing time for example is over 2.5 MINTUES per ore. Not to mention requiring some sort of configurable gearing system ( Either CVT, swapping Gearboxes between Torque and Speed, or using a Multi-Directional Clutch to run 2 separate lines of gearing. ) It also requires water, and the final product must still be smelted. Finally, due to it holding two stacks per stage, switching ores for a quick boost of something is extremely slow, else you end up with piles of mid-stage mats sitting around. You also need to magnetize the shaft core for the AC Engine, and provide an alternating signal.

Yes, it's very doable, but it's also complicated and slow...and again, it's completely trivialized by things that make INFINITE ores. I really don't understand complaining about getting a whole 5x iron ore, when you can do any of a dozen different things to get unlimited iron for free.

 

[asb3pe]

Thats not an opinion, thats physical reality.

That's physics! The funniest thing is... I'm an engineer by trade (retired now) and I just can't be bothered to deal with all the RotaryCraft stuff... mainly because I did it all my life. It's certainly not that I don't understand the concepts, it's just that I want to play a game, not go back to my former life where I had to deal with all that technical kinda stuff. Go figure. I think it's really cool what Reika has done, don't get me wrong. I def enjoyed reading thru the RoC manual in-game. Very impressive mod indeed.

 

[xKazlyn]

The issue with RoCs extractor is when you use it with nether ores. 10x is very likely, along with iridium byproducts and things like uranium, one 64x64 ender quarry in the nether gave me over 100k Ingots/gems, my mining days were very much over.

But maybe this is the reason behind its large multiplier, to end mining needs, i couldn't even imagine running it like reika did with all those borers

 

[rhn]

Completely mistaken. Because the extractor has 4 stages and each one has different power requirements (torque * speed) it is most beneficial to set up some type of redstone-shenanigans to control the cvc's allowing you to get the necessary requirements. Also, the stages are torque-speed-speed-torque making it a pain with most redstone stuff

Completely mistaken am I? I see tons of people just feeding it enough torque and speed to do all the 4 steps at the same time, since power can be somewhat trivialised anyway. I am aware that it is not the optimal way of doing it, but it seems to be what most people are doing anyway.

Yes, it's very doable, but it's also complicated and slow...and again, it's completely trivialized by things that make INFINITE ores. I really don't understand complaining about getting a whole 5x iron ore, when you can do any of a dozen different things to get unlimited iron for free.

I am personally concerned that mods in the future HAVE to be "over the top" and "ridiculous OP" to even get a shot at getting into modpacks, and it all just turning into a slippery slope of crappy mods. Most people wont ever choose the 2-3x solutions if there is a 5x alternative. And as mentioned several times now I fear this just leads to modders being forced to make their mods even more OP for them to even get considered. Where the heck does it end? Does this "arms race" really give us higher quality mods/gaming experiences? I sure as hell don't think constantly being pushed into THE most efficient(read most OP) solution will.