Is Ore processing and sorting disappearing?
- Thread starter zorn
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I see your point but you are also missing mine. By extending the game out, my friend would have fun for a longer amount of time. In the 4 months it would take him to get to End game with the set of mods we used, we could then try all new mods. But the way the packs are now, he would get bored in weeks. Now we need new mods or new content in existing mods to have any fun. Or create our own challenges. Not everyone is good at that though.
So now we need new mods every month. Its about spacing out the enjoyment, thats all. Like going out partying. Dont do shots right at 9pm and pass out by 10pm. More fun to sip a drink here, sip another one here, maybe do a shot or two... and enjoy the whole night. I know that with enough time he would get bored, but the longer you space things out, the more exciting an achievement is also. Many people ive spoken to who tried unhinged or forgecraft lite all said that they really felt great doing something that in the FTB packs would be nothing special. Iguana tweaks for Tinkers COnstruct tools... you end up at the same place, but you feel more proud of the high end hammer using iguana tweaks. The more work you put in, the prouder you are of the accomplishment.
Why does post scarcity equaling creative mode sound insulting? HOnest question. To me it make sense, why do people feel insulted? I felt insulted when people told me that I should go play another game that my ideas are extreme and the game just couldn't ever provide what i was looking for. Have you ever gone to a forum and had 99% of the people disagree with you? Did you get frustrated and defensive? Its much easier for the majority to be relaxed, dont you think?
Just trying to explain, i see your point but i dont think you realize I understand it and accept it. Im not trying to make the game last forever. Just longer than it does now. My apologies if I was insulting in my replies to you.
So I think this is where the disagreement with opinion and stating something as if it were fact.
Now for you personally extension of whatever you're doing may be the best way for you to get the most out of it. Personally I got far more enjoyment out of Iguana tweaks and MF when I removed a lot of the time extensions. Time invested to something doesn't necessarily equate to being more personally involved in something and therefore getting more out of something when you do it. Again as a personal example the more time I need to invest in to something or have invested I lose interest and what I'm doing loses meaning.
Actual words mean very little, akin to actually talking, the context, body language & tone, mean everything. Post scarcity can be made to sound just as insulting as when some use the term creative mode. Don't get me wrong the connotations of words too play a role but the way anyone uses the words contextually makes a far greater impact.
I majored in management and spent a further three years on leadership training, and a rather significant portion was purely on tone and positioning in electronic communications.
The very shortened version of it is this: always put yourself in the other person's shoes and consider how you would take your words.
Personally speaking, Zorn, I totally accept where you are coming from, I think you make some great points and you clearly know your stuff, but your posts tend to come off, when I read them, with a whole heap of arrogance. If I were a manager training you, I would advise you to watch out for that.
Being that I'm not, I'll just say that we should probably get back on topic or let this one go
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I've admittedly neglected replying to something zorn left me back in November (because I'm busy/forgetful/lazy), but I think a recent XKCD covered what goes on with some of the posts hereabouts (on several levels)...
But yes, probably should get back on topic now.
I still build automation systems, small and large, to handle my processing. But I'm also known to overkill on bringing in resources just because I can.
Although a funny thing I've caught myself on: While sitting about waiting for assembly lasers to finish up some AE circuitry so I could build some larger cells to actually continue holding "all that stuff", it totally didn't occur to me until later that I'm absolutely drowning in all of those resources and could've just as easily just done the "by-hand" recipe and cooked up those circuits much faster and moved on. Sometimes the drive to automate can override the rational will to just get 'er done by hand. =)
(I'm sort of resolving myself to go with Logistics Pipes next world I start, though. Haven't really used them since the 1.4.x era when they were basically the same as they were in the 1.2.x era. AE is fantastic but I miss seeing all the things flying around in the pipes).
But yes, probably should get back on topic now.
I still build automation systems, small and large, to handle my processing. But I'm also known to overkill on bringing in resources just because I can.
Although a funny thing I've caught myself on: While sitting about waiting for assembly lasers to finish up some AE circuitry so I could build some larger cells to actually continue holding "all that stuff", it totally didn't occur to me until later that I'm absolutely drowning in all of those resources and could've just as easily just done the "by-hand" recipe and cooked up those circuits much faster and moved on. Sometimes the drive to automate can override the rational will to just get 'er done by hand. =)
(I'm sort of resolving myself to go with Logistics Pipes next world I start, though. Haven't really used them since the 1.4.x era when they were basically the same as they were in the 1.2.x era. AE is fantastic but I miss seeing all the things flying around in the pipes).
I don't think you will regret trying out logistics pipes. I can't compare it to how it was in 1.2-1.4 but nowadays I find building logistics systems quite addictive. Even though some of the pipes and modules are very powerful and may fall into the "doing too much in one block" category for some people, I just can't help myself but to keep adding to my logistics network things that I don't really need it to do just because it is fun. It is as you say an irrational "drive to automate", but it sure can be fun.
I personally love the whole "zoomzoomZOOM" when things move towards the crafting area. If we can use TE Itempipe-thingies to move things around with a LP system, I would likely never use AE again.
Oh, my love affair with Logistics Pipes is long-lived, but I haven't used them in SMP for a long time because there was a lot those guys had to still iron out (much props to them, taking an SSP-only mod and making it SMP and then getting more content into it). I'm very happy making a row of Polymorphic ItemSink-ed up chests to be my storage and using a request pipe to grab stuff as needed, it feels more "real" to me. =)
Celestialphoenix
Too Much Free Time
Logistics pipes is a fairly neat mod- I actually automated thaumcraft 2 infusion crafting back in 1.2.5 with that.
Theres a few newer things in there that don't float my boat at all- but not enough to sink it either. As @casilleroatr put it 'Doing to much in one block'
(was a specialist bee upgrade REALLY needed? automated bees worked perfectly fine without it)
@YX33A TE item ducts integrate perfectly fine with a logistics network. I'll let you figure the details out in game.
Theres a few newer things in there that don't float my boat at all- but not enough to sink it either. As @casilleroatr put it 'Doing to much in one block'
(was a specialist bee upgrade REALLY needed? automated bees worked perfectly fine without it)
@YX33A TE item ducts integrate perfectly fine with a logistics network. I'll let you figure the details out in game.
After spending waaaaaay too much time thinking about game balance, I would just say two things:
1: EE3 is really the biggest issue in game balance of any mod. EVER. Remove it, and most of the newer packs I think will be a lot more fun to play. Turtles are second. The new packs are better than 1.5 by not having EE3 in them. Much better for players like me. Remove turtles, add gregtech, im fairly happy. If there are more people like me out there reading this, just removing those two mods will make the game much more fun for you. Why does Dan200 refuse to offer TE3 recipes with his mod? It would be like if MPS had force people to only use the vanilla recipes. Its stubborn, and OpenComputers shows that many people want something different, and if MPS had acted like CC has... id say another MPS type mod that offered different recipes would already be in use and popular.
2: Ultimate seems to be the pack that holds people's hearts. Reddit is making its own pack (why? fewer people are happy with the default packs.) and its billed as 'the new ultimate'. People post asking 'what was your favorite pack ever?' and Ultimate wins the voting and people go on and on about how much fun they had.
3: IMO this really shows that most players might not want the uber hard pack I might try to make, but I also think they want something to sink their teeth into also, which is what Ultimate provided.
Yes I cheated, that's 3 things.
Like my other posts, this just me voicing my own opinion AND giving evidence to back it up. The TLDR is:
Maybe gregtech added to a new pack is not the answer, but some sort of pack like Ultimate (which had a big End Game mod of some type) would, I think, blow any other pack ftb offers out of the water in popularity. It had something for everyone, IMO.
This is really all ive ever been trying to say. And making your own pack is a pain in the ass. I was almost done with mine and now have some weird server issue. With a wife and kids I now wasted all week trying to do my own pack, and im back to square one. Is it any wonder people like me (little free time) just want to use a launcher with premade packs and not make our own?
Why cant someone make a gregtech type pack without the tedium? Give me big end game machines that suck up gobs of power and take tons of resources to craft.. but not lots of minutes. Add this to the other mods that are (to me) for the early and mid game... and you've got a great game here. Why is it that new mods just keep making better pipes, more storage, etc. but no one makes a 'fixed gregtech'? People lvoe the idea of big end game machines, they just dont like how greg implemented it right? So why has no one offered the community what it seems they want?
http://en.reddit.com/r/feedthebeast/comments/1urhx3/whats_your_favorite_modpack/
Highest voting was for ultimate. It wasnt a huge thread, but this was just a blunt question asking the same thing people have done in conversations there for months. Or did you mean the thread about TPPI? Ill try to find it and link it here when I do.
This, 100x over. As much as I disagree with you on other subjects, I cannot agree with you more here. I personally want to make a high-tier Thermal Expansion expansion (lol i so funneh lol best trole 2014 lololol) based on extremely advanced cybernetics and the magic element of RF (I actually have a lot of the mod planned out in my head), but that would require me to learn Java and I doubt I have the motivation or skills to do it.
First off I can appreciate what you're attempting to point out but at the same time I have to point a few things out.
You simply don't have the sheer amount of data to say that removing either one, much less both, of those mods would better suit a balance that most people want. On the same note the level of balance within any said pack is based on the theme of the pack. Balance follows theme not theme around balance.
Now as for CC; It's his mod. He doesn't have to change it in any way for anyone other than himself. I don't mean to sound like an ass but that is the fact of the matter. Personally I highly doubt OpenComputers will ever get the following that CC has even if CC ceased to exist today.
Also as a note; generally mods do not appear out of necessity or something lacking from the mod community as a whole but rather from an idea someone has or something they feel is missing from their game. They may be on a custom pack and therefor do not know the extent of mods that exist. This is generally why mods that overlap in areas exist.
Sorry but that thread is a bit meh as a source. The best thing to site would have been that Ultimate is still the most downloaded pack on the FTB launcher. One might argue though that's due to the amount of time it's been around. Neither answer is strictly telling of what most people prefer.
The best approach would be to see which modpack has been downloaded at the fastest pace based on relative release date. Even then it is a mediocre tell at best. People generally do not actually not what they really want until they've been offered it. Then once they've been offered it when opinions are formed through groups they lean toward the more socially acceptable choice. This is a problem with minecraft as collective groupings like forums and reddit tend to make people lean toward the socially acceptable rather than their own preferred choice. It's also a problem(With respect to modpacks and the balance each person wants) for everyone to have an individual taste within a game as module as modded minecraft because of servers.
Also Reddit making a pack that suits their general interest is exactly what they should do. Look at RR; it has become quite popular as there are many the pack appeals to. They don't hold anyone responsible for not putting forward a pack that suit them they simply took it upon themselves. I'm not saying that's an easy thing to do but it is the thing to do if you want something other than what is currently offered(Not trying to discount that you are adding your opinion and feelings toward what would be a good pack for FTB to consider doing but as the best "fastest" option).
This is very true for a good portion of players. They do want something they can behold and they want something fairly straightforward in that department. As much as I dislike Gregtech, it's machines were straightforward monstrosities. They were something to behold for awhile. Some mods are creating this ability like Big Reactors, Mekanism, and a few others. Mods will undoubtedly be created to fulfill this want in time as there are those that want it. It may take time but this:
Will happen eventually.
It likely is not the answer without a pack, like Unhinged, dedicated solely to it and even then wouldn't be the pack most want. Mods that do fulfill the desires you hate are generally non-existent at the moment. They may rise in the future and current mods may change to fit those roles. I disagree that ultimate had something for everyone but it did have a lot of a good amount of people.
The latter bit the FTB team(And others I've seen quite a few "universal configs" lately not to mention the new forge and NEI ID conflict capabilities) are trying as fast and as best they can to alleviate this. The universal config was the start and the new launcher(As well as the ATLauncher is fairly decent) will be the next step. From there further issues after that point can be addressed then. I will agree on your own making a "large" pack is fairly difficult without a good amount of time to put forward or a number of people to spread the time out with.
My suggestion for this, for now, would to be gathering like minded, determined people that are willing to work on that together. Each person that you're able to gather would cut the load by a large amount. There are also those that you might be able to ask help from without them being involved in the development of the pack.
E: That was quite a bit of text e.e
As much as I dislike GregTech's current form and its consistent nerfing, things like Big Reactors and Mekanism aren't close to being anywhere near the same level of GregTech in terms of late-game. In fact, the only thing that is would have to be ExtraCells, which doesn't even add machines (it's an AE addon that adds obscenely powerful storage cells and liquid interaction tools/storage cells).
I don't mean necessarily something late game by those mods but rather something that is appealing to see as a finished product when you place it. I understand that hyper late game mods are few and far apart and generally when they do exist do not account for the VAST wealth you will have at the time making them seem extremely easy.
See, what I'm really hoping for (and would hope to be able to make myself :/) is something that's both impressive/rewarding and actually difficult to make (basically assuming you have things like BC quarries and AE giving you craptons of resources).
Imagine some crazy, hyper-expensive, massive multblock reactor that consumed a bucket of both Blazing Pyrotheum and Gelid Cryotheum per second to run, but produced something absurd like 10000 RF/t. It would be awesome to behold and incredibly hard to set up.
Or multi-multiblock. But yea I know a lot of people do like things like that and that there are relatively few mods that do it well and are configurable for all types of people.
AE and late-game thermal expansion (optimal power and ore processing) and late-game MFR are superior in complexity and depth to most of the modern GT content. What they do not require more of is brute resources. Which is the most agonizing, silly, bruteforce and uninspired mechanic out there.
What I don't get is why people crave that. They seem deeply in need of a good slap to the face when it comes to resources. "Come back after my machine has run for 600 hours and you have about 5000 redstone, kid." Zorn seems to want this, and I cannot even begin to speculate on why. I simply know I would find it deeply unsatisfying. The way he describes his game makes me thing only of the most tedious and monotonous parts of Minecraft and none of the parts I sincerely enjoy.
I also see that evidently I am in his sig as someone lamenting the lack of balance w/ Mekanism, and I'm somewhat irritated that this point is being used to try and prop up the argument. Balance does matter, inasmuch as some players cannot help themselves. But the problem w/ Mekanism is related to design flaws in power consumption models and a first cut of a new mining mechanic that the author admits is not correctly balanced right now.
Balance is a matter of opinion, but it's a matter of opinion about what is fun. The majority opinion on these forums is that building big, complex, perhaps unique things is what's fun. Zorn seems to think that building something that simply time consuming is fun (since the mods he claims to add stress the addition of signifiant time investments).
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Which while you may not understand it is perfectly valid. Many people find value in anything they pour time in to and derive their sense of accomplishment from time spent culminating in to something. It's one of the basic ideas behind GT; spend lots of time getting the stuff to build xxx so it does something cool. Monotony is not boring for everyone, at varying levels for different people of course.
The majority on this forum also isn't near vast enough to represent the whole of FTB players(much less modded MC as a whole) in a significantly relatable way. Where you and many others enjoy taking cogs and putting them together in to a working "machine", Zorn and others enjoy getting all the resources for the "machine" and allow the mod to come in for that part. Both are valid.