Is Ore processing and sorting disappearing?

[Digdug]

Apologies for living in the past, even if our server is still on 1.5.2 and there are still people out there (myself included) who can't get any 1.6.4 to launch. I guess if nobody cares about it though, I'll just mosey on...

I think what's actually being said is "You're complaining about stuff (Dartcraft balance) that has drastically changed in newer versions. Your concerns HAVE been addressed, you just need to be using the most current version."

I think that's somewhat of a fair opinion. If development of a mod moves to a new version, you can't realistically expect that they are going to be back-porting new releases to all past versions of Minecraft.

 

[MCKerrnel]

I think what's actually being said is "You're complaining about stuff (Dartcraft balance) that has drastically changed in newer versions. Your concerns HAVE been addressed, you just need to be using the most current version."
I think that's somewhat of a fair opinion. If development of a mod moves to a new version, you can't realistically expect that they are going to be back-porting new releases to all past versions of Minecraft.

And I can generally accept that, but until a couple of weeks ago, everyone was on 1.5.2, and still are since the 1.6.4 packs were just released into beta. Saying they were addressed months ago when people couldn't access those changes for the most part until the past couple of weeks doesn't really address the issues. But you're right, it's a fair comment if that's what is being said.

 

[RedBoss]

And I can generally accept that, but until a couple of weeks ago, everyone was on 1.5.2, and still are since the 1.6.4 packs were just released into beta. Saying they were addressed months ago when people couldn't access those changes for the most part until the past couple of weeks doesn't really address the issues. But you're right, it's a fair comment if that's what is being said.

Not everyone waits on ftb. Most of the vocal people on these forums have been playing in 1.6 for months.

 

[YX33A]

Not everyone waits on ftb. Most of the vocal people on these forums have been playing in 1.6 for months.

Amen! I'm not very vocal here, but I've been playing 1.6 almost as long as those working on RR were I'd say.

And I can generally accept that, but until a couple of weeks ago, everyone was on 1.5.2, and still are since the 1.6.4 packs were just released into beta. Saying they were addressed months ago when people couldn't access those changes for the most part until the past couple of weeks doesn't really address the issues. But you're right, it's a fair comment if that's what is being said.

Maybe everyone who uses the FTB Launcher hasn't been playing 1.6.4 for more the a few weeks, but seeing as the FTB Launcher isn't the only way to download and install/run minecraft and mods, I'd say that saying that " Until a couple weeks ago, Everyone was on 1.5.2" is rather foolish. I mean, hell, some people are on 1.7.2 now. It's been out longer then FTB for 1.6.4 has been.

 

[Dorque]

And now you have basically thrown FTB out the window and relegated those players to doing a lot more screwing around. Not everyone wants to muck around with ID conflicts and such. I thought the point of FTB was to make it simple and easy for non techy people to play modded minecraft?

Minecraft itself has 4 levels of difficulty. I understand this is a free launcher, but it woudl be great if FTB released 'DW20 hard' "dw20 normal'. etc. Because some configs are a pain to understand, and then it takes a lot of time and experience to really know how to balance out one mod vs another.

I'm sorry, but you totally destroyed your own point right here.

Have you noticed, no offense to the team, how long it's taking them to release a single stable version of their flagship pack?

FTB attempts to release a pack that will fulfill the needs of the majority. You are then welcome to edit it yourself if it does not meet your needs. Because again, you are welcome to restate your opinions all that you like, but it doesn't change the fact that very few people share your stance.

I suppose the short answer is, yeah, if you want it, you are in fact going to have to dedicate "a lot of time and experience" to learning to do it for yourself.

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

 

[Dorque]

And I can generally accept that, but until a couple of weeks ago, everyone was on 1.5.2, and still are since the 1.6.4 packs were just released into beta. Saying they were addressed months ago when people couldn't access those changes for the most part until the past couple of weeks doesn't really address the issues. But you're right, it's a fair comment if that's what is being said.

Just FYI, FTB has nothing to do with the development of the mods and whether they are still supporting a 1.5 pack or not - which they are - you can put precisely 0% of the blame on them if you can't get 1.6 features in a 1.5 pack.

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

 

[GPuzzle]

I look at this thread and I think that those that are saying stuff about balance just haven't thought that none of the "OP" stuff out there is threatening to shoot you if you don't use it. Do what you want to do, I don't give a shit. Not everything is about efficiency, really. Sometimes it's about what you prefer. Of course, there's a high peak and a low peak, but that depends only on YOU.

 

[Zenthon_127]

The reason I get frustrated is that I often see people say 'its inevitable that things improve'. Power creep is not required or necessary, or even good for the game. But IMO power creep is really what we are seeing here.

Correction: it's reverse power creep. What we have here is a few mods getting progressively weaker and weaker, and the one case that I could call direct power creep (Dartcraft) got nerfed to hell in 1.6. The users of these mods see everything around them getting stronger and stronger relative to said mods, and thus the illusion of power creep is created.

The power level of mods, outside of GregTech and 1.5 Dartcraft, has largely remained constant from early 1.4 on.

 

[SatanicSanta]

Not everyone waits on ftb. Most of the vocal people on these forums have been playing in 1.6 for months.

Well, I go at the flow of FTB, but that's because my worlds also serve as test worlds for the wiki. I would've been on 1.6 months ago... Granted I did attempt RR both in 1.5.2 and 1.6.4 quite a few times, it's just too heavy for my computer.

Also, I couldn't get the launcher to launch 1.6 packs either, @MCKerrnel you should try using the Vanilla Launcher.

 

[GPuzzle]

Go do what you just suggested yourself and you will have no need to fret about the fact that packs like Unleashed are "killing" modded MineCraft.

Identify what is making it easy and remove those as well. Add in those mods that does nothing but makes life miserable for you and your friends, and you will get the hard mode you want.

For TiCo, there's a config to disable vanilla tools except for wooden tools. You can install IguanaTweaks (sp?) to make it even harder. Do not install mods that gives your resource doubling or more. Do not install mods that gives your better weapons/armors than enchanted diamond equipments. Do not install mods that makes enchanting easier. Install mods that make mobs more aggressive, hits harder. Kind of like Infernal Mobs. Mods like Hunger Overhaul to make it so hunger is something to be considered.

There's a lot of ways to make a game harder, I'm not one for such gameplay but for people complaining about the modded gameplay experience for being too easy, they can always tweak the experience for themselves instead of blaming the modpack makes for "killing" modded minecraft.

I once complained about certain mods trying too hard to be harsh on the player but once I discovered that the modded MineCraft experience is all up to myself, everything changed for the better.

Because if it isn't miserable, it isn't hard enough.

Because you know what? The pack that is miserable enough for you and your friends to feel it, there will be someone who will come to the forum and complain about it being still too easy. So something just right for you will always be too easy, for someone, somewhere.

*stands up and claps*
That was incredible.

 

[zorn]

Correction: it's reverse power creep. What we have here is a few mods getting progressively weaker and weaker, and the one case that I could call direct power creep (Dartcraft) got nerfed to hell in 1.6. The users of these mods see everything around them getting stronger and stronger relative to said mods, and thus the illusion of power creep is created.

The power level of mods, outside of GregTech and 1.5 Dartcraft, has largely remained constant from early 1.4 on.

Te3 has ore tripling.
MFR tree farms require no maintenance vs older tree farms. (I remember a Direwolf video, hearing jaded say "wait til MFR is on the server if you want to see 'Oh-Pee') Now MFR is standard mod.
EnderIO fluids, items and redstone signal in one line of pipes.
Pipes have redstone signal built in.
Power systems cannot fail or explode.
Powering a line of machines with conductive pipe means the last machine in a line can run out of power, stopping your whole system. Does not happen with TE conduits.
Badly designed pipes can overflow, losing items. (Entities from pipes disappear in 1 minute by the way, to keep servers from crashing) Now that does not happen.
Invulnerable high end armor had no flight. Jump high, run fast, self feeding and water breathing. Todays high end suit places torches at any distance, can fly thousands of blocks with no recharge and faster. Runs faster, cuts trees, kills mobs, etc I cant even NAME everything it does.

Golden bags of holdings vs canvas bags. It was harder to make a damn canvas bag than it is a golden bag of holding.
Tinkers construct tools vs vanilla? To get something better than a TiC hammer, you have to go back to EE2 morningstar.
Gravity gun moving spawners (originally thought this was not very strong, I was wrong).
Portal guns vs IC2 teleporters. One requires power, factors in weight last I read. I found 2 portal guns in chests long before i even needed to thinka bout making one.
Mystcraft has been around so its not really power creep, but find me 10 people who use it, and 9 of them use it to break other mods. Eternal storm age and gregtech lightning rods. Infinite lava age because its too annoying to use the nether. Posts showing oceans of liquid UU matter in a world with gregtech. I mean... whats the point then? Flat worlds for easy mining. Ive seen 100 posts on reddit of mystcraft worlds and every single one had to do with giving you tons of stuff easily that normally took a lot of time. Not ever to do with making a unique world to explore or whatever.
Did I mention that for 4 ender pearls and some metal you can make a block that teleports between dimensions? And not require power? Try getting lava from the nether without it. This is considered the most widely used 'OP' power generation method. Previously you saw people invest tons of resources and take time to make creosote oil to make rail systems for transport, how many people do it now vs using a tesseract?

Sure, ill go make my own modpack and tesseracts will be disabled along with ender chests, but come on, dont tell me things havent gotten more powerful.

 

[SatanicSanta]

TC3 is just as if not more tedious than gregtech was, but no one complains about it.

TC3 was more rewarding than GregTech, and people DO complain about TC3 research.

 

[zorn]

TC3 was more rewarding than GregTech, and people DO complain about TC3 research.

Yeah fair enough, they do complain.

 

[RedBoss]

[quote="zorn, post: 524329]
Sure, ill go make my own modpack and tesseracts will be disabled along with ender chests, but come on, dont tell me things havent gotten more powerful.[/quote]

Things have improved. Harping on mfr is illogical in the face of the fact that MFR predates every other currently used tree farm. You could bring up forestry but they changed to multiblocks.

I haven't used AE since 1.5. I don't use tesseracts, I prefer ender chests and tanks. I'm glad you're finally going to make your own pack. I hope you get what you want from your efforts.

 

[Zenthon_127]

Te3 has ore tripling.
MFR tree farms require no maintenance vs older tree farms. (I remember a Direwolf video, hearing jaded say "wait til MFR is on the server if you want to see 'Oh-Pee') Now MFR is standard mod.
EnderIO fluids, items and redstone signal in one line of pipes.
Pipes have redstone signal built in.
Power systems cannot fail or explode.
Powering a line of machines with conductive pipe means the last machine in a line can run out of power, stopping your whole system. Does not happen with TE conduits.
Badly designed pipes can overflow, losing items. (Entities from pipes disappear in 1 minute by the way, to keep servers from crashing) Now that does not happen.
Invulnerable high end armor had no flight. Jump high, run fast, self feeding and water breathing. Todays high end suit places torches at any distance, can fly thousands of blocks with no recharge and faster. Runs faster, cuts trees, kills mobs, etc I cant even NAME everything it does.

Golden bags of holdings vs canvas bags. It was harder to make a damn canvas bag than it is a golden bag of holding.
Tinkers construct tools vs vanilla? To get something better than a TiC hammer, you have to go back to EE2 morningstar.
Gravity gun moving spawners (originally thought this was not very strong, I was wrong).
Portal guns vs IC2 teleporters. One requires power, factors in weight last I read. I found 2 portal guns in chests long before i even needed to thinka bout making one.
Mystcraft has been around so its not really power creep, but find me 10 people who use it, and 9 of them use it to break other mods. Eternal storm age and gregtech lightning rods. Infinite lava age because its too annoying to use the nether. Posts showing oceans of liquid UU matter in a world with gregtech. I mean... whats the point then? Flat worlds for easy mining. Ive seen 100 posts on reddit of mystcraft worlds and every single one had to do with giving you tons of stuff easily that normally took a lot of time. Not ever to do with making a unique world to explore or whatever.
Did I mention that for 4 ender pearls and some metal you can make a block that teleports between dimensions? And not require power? Try getting lava from the nether without it. This is considered the most widely used 'OP' power generation method. Previously you saw people invest tons of resources and take time to make creosote oil to make rail systems for transport, how many people do it now vs using a tesseract?

Sure, ill go make my own modpack and tesseracts will be disabled along with ender chests, but come on, dont tell me things havent gotten more powerful. Plus, I would bet 9 out of 10 bases that people post showing off their builds show off a wall of AE monitors showing their storage. I saw 400K iron the other day, and the caption said 'feels good to walk by these every day'. I know I felt good about 2500 iridium plates in Ultimate. its an accomplishment. So every mod that makes it easier to get to that milestone, or make you feel you can push the boundaries a bit is going to get people using it. I really dont think it has anything to do with ease of use or tedium or anything. TC3 is just as if not more tedious than gregtech was, but no one complains about it.

Before I say anything: I did note that I was referring to the power level of 1.4 and advancing. Now, onto the post:

Out of all of your examples, the only ones that are significantly more powerful than 1.4's state is the MFR Harvester, (which tons of people, myself included, complain about, although to be fair it is the oldest automated farm in our current mod ecosystem) and Mystcraft, which is utterly BROKEN and should NEVER be included in any modpack that desires some degree of balance. I mean, Mystcraft at this point is more of a joke than a mod, since it often fails at its intended purpose but can easily break almost all other mods with little to no effort.

We've lost things too, you know. We don't have 60 block tall cheap automatic tunnel bores that run on cheap solar panels anymore (no joke, that was a thing, and you could do it without AE or even turtles), nor do we have invincible blocks, Ultimate Hybrid Solars, XySoil or the Minium Stone.

You also seem to be a bit misinformed on other areas. I remember Dire using lava power before Ender Tanks were in 1.4 and cross-dimensional Railcraft was a thing: he just used the TE2 Liquid Transposer with an Ender Tank, which is still pretty cheap. Hell, I barely saw RC rail systems get used at all until 1.5. Ore tripling with TE has been here since 1.4 IIRC and is actually pretty hard to automate. Gravisuite was a thing back then, too. So were RP2 Tubes, and Gravity/Portal Guns, and a lot of other things.

 

[gokogt386]

Sure, ill go make my own modpack and tesseracts will be disabled along with ender chests, but come on, dont tell me things havent gotten more powerful.

If you do end up making one, try using Mine Tweaker to weed out recipes that are unbalanced to you. You can change crafting, furnace, and some machine recipes, not to mention change ore dictionary and fluid registry inputs. It's very versatile.

 

[KirinDave]

Te3 has ore tripling.
MFR tree farms require no maintenance vs older tree farms. (I remember a Direwolf video, hearing jaded say "wait til MFR is on the server if you want to see 'Oh-Pee') Now MFR is standard mod.

Because it's not as great as people claim it is.

EnderIO

fluids, items and redstone signal in one line of pipes.

So OP, buildcraft has been doing almost that for a year!

Power systems cannot fail or explode.

Very few power systems ever had problems with exploding. There were buildcraft bugs that made pipe explosions more likely and they got fixed.

Powering a line of machines with conductive pipe means the last machine in a line can run out of power, stopping your whole system.

It was a bug.

Badly designed pipes can overflow, losing items.

(Entities from pipes disappear in 1 minute by the way, to keep servers from crashing) Now that does not happen.

This is incredibly bad and can corrupt chunks. If you think 1m was a fast enough despawn time, ask yourself why Fillers were nerfed?

Invulnerable high end armor had no flight. Jump high, run fast, self feeding and water breathing. Todays high end suit places torches at any distance, can fly thousands of blocks with no recharge and faster. Runs faster, cuts trees, kills mobs, etc I cant even NAME everything it does.

We are only recently getting back to the place that EE2 left us. I cannot name an armor that can do all of this but MPS with MPSA, and MPSA was always admitted to be quite overpowered.

Golden bags of holdings vs canvas bags.

It was harder to make a damn canvas bag than it is a golden bag of holding.

Not... not really?

Tinkers construct tools vs vanilla?

To get something better than a TiC hammer, you have to go back to EE2 morningstar.

Wrong. Plenty of better tools exist, and have existed.

Gravity gun moving spawners

(originally thought this was not very strong, I was wrong).

I agree with this one.

Portal guns vs IC2 teleporters.

One requires power, factors in weight last I read. I found 2 portal guns in chests long before i even needed to thinka bout making one.

Fixed. A case where the opposite of your complaint is true as you move forward.

Mystcraft has been around so its not really power creep, but find me 10 people who use it, and 9 of them use it to break other mods. Eternal storm age and gregtech lightning rods. Infinite lava age because its too annoying to use the nether. Posts showing oceans of liquid UU matter in a world with gregtech. I mean... whats the point then? Flat worlds for easy mining. Ive seen 100 posts on reddit of mystcraft worlds and every single one had to do with giving you tons of stuff easily that normally took a lot of time. Not ever to do with making a unique world to explore or whatever.

Not sure this really qualifies as balance, since Mystcraft page grinding is still really, really agonizing or involves bizarre builds.

Did I mention that for 4 ender pearls and some metal you can make a block that teleports between dimensions

? And not require power? Try getting lava from the nether without it. This is considered the most widely used 'OP' power generation method. Previously you saw people invest tons of resources and take time to make creosote oil to make rail systems for transport, how many people do it now vs using a tesseract?

And machines, and processing, and alloys... And before, it was an ender pearl and four blaze rods. So much more balanced? Before that, it was an IC2 pump, some cells, and some blaze rods and ender pearls. Seriously, that power system has been around forever. Tesseracts are generally MORE difficult to make than ender tanks. Why call them out specifically?

TBH, until EE3 comes back, ender pearls are difficult to gather. You have to get very lucky with your dungeon loot or just spend hours grinding them. This is a case where I was historically wrong and in subsequent modpacks I make, I will disable the transmutation to create ender pearls.

Sure, ill go make my own modpack and tesseracts will be disabled along with ender chests, but come on, dont tell me things havent gotten more powerful.

They've been that way since like 1.2.5. You can do that build in Tekkit Classic. DW20 season 2 does it. Oh, and Lava has been RADICALLY nerfed in modern versions.

Things have gotten much more balanced.

 

[SonOfABirch]

in subsequent modpacks I make, I will disable the transmutation to create ender pearls.

Ender Pearls really can't be balanced... their "value" is so drastically different pre and post end that its impossible

 

[snooder]

MFR tree farms require no maintenance vs older tree farms. (I remember a Direwolf video, hearing jaded say "wait til MFR is on the server if you want to see 'Oh-Pee') Now MFR is standard mod.

Remember when Steve's Carts Tree farms weren't crap? When they not only didn't require maintenance but ALSO didn't require power at all? Yeah, that got nerfed to the point where nobody even bothers with SC anymore unless as a novelty build. And even without SC, compare the MFR setup to an old-school Forestry arboretum and logger combo. Pretty much the same thing, except the forestry farm needed humus. It's only fairly recently that the rather expensive multifarm became the only method of farming with forestry. And even MORE recently for the forced changes to saplings that makes tree breeding required.

Power systems cannot fail or explode.
Powering a line of machines with conductive pipe means the last machine in a line can run out of power, stopping your whole system. Does not happen with TE conduits.
Badly designed pipes can overflow, losing items. (Entities from pipes disappear in 1 minute by the way, to keep servers from crashing) Now that does not happen.

So they fixed a series of bugs and unintended behaviors that frustrated players and broke servers? That's not "power creep", that's good bug fixing.

Invulnerable high end armor had no flight. Jump high, run fast, self feeding and water breathing. Todays high end suit places torches at any distance, can fly thousands of blocks with no recharge and faster. Runs faster, cuts trees, kills mobs, etc I cant even NAME everything it does.

I've had invulnerable flight since 1.2.5. Either from EE2, or from the gravichestplate or from Thaumcraft. MPS didn't actually give anything new, it just consolidated it into a single item so you had more inventory space. And MPS suits are actually not invulnerable the way that quantum suits and gravichestplates are. You can still die in a MPS, it's just harder than in diamond armor.

Golden bags of holdings vs canvas bags. It was harder to make a damn canvas bag than it is a golden bag of holding.

Um what? That's not true at all. And neither is as powerful as the wonderful bags we used to get from EE2. Or as useful as the forestry backpacks. Or ender pouches, all of which have been in the game for a really long time.

Tinkers construct tools vs vanilla? To get something better than a TiC hammer, you have to go back to EE2 morningstar.

Uh, no? Plenty of mods offer faster mining methods or more versatile tools. The mining laser alone will crush the TiC hammer in terms of amount of material cleared in the fastest time.

Gravity gun moving spawners (originally thought this was not very strong, I was wrong).
Portal guns vs IC2 teleporters. One requires power, factors in weight last I read. I found 2 portal guns in chests long before i even needed to thinka bout making one.

The portal gun mod has been around since at least 1.2.5. It's not exactly "power creep" if it predates the FtB modpack.

Mystcraft has been around so its not really power creep, but find me 10 people who use it, and 9 of them use it to break other mods. Eternal storm age and gregtech lightning rods. Infinite lava age because its too annoying to use the nether. Posts showing oceans of liquid UU matter in a world with gregtech. I mean... whats the point then? Flat worlds for easy mining. Ive seen 100 posts on reddit of mystcraft worlds and every single one had to do with giving you tons of stuff easily that normally took a lot of time. Not ever to do with making a unique world to explore or whatever.

Well yeah. Mystcraft has always been used that way. What would be the point, otherwise? We already have an infinite world to explore in minecraft, unless the new world being created has some specific advantage, who would bother with it? You might as well complain that people only use Twilight Forest to quarry hollow hills.

Did I mention that for 4 ender pearls and some metal you can make a block that teleports between dimensions? And not require power? Try getting lava from the nether without it. This is considered the most widely used 'OP' power generation method. Previously you saw people invest tons of resources and take time to make creosote oil to make rail systems for transport, how many people do it now vs using a tesseract?

Remember when there were teleport pipes for BC? I do. They were MUCH, MUCH cheaper than tesseracts. Also, tesseracts are even harder to make in 1.6.4 (and they were already fairly expensive). Not mention that you can have the same functionality with vanilla enderchests, you just have to run lava cells or buckets through fluid transposers or deployers. The people who made rail systems for transporting lava from the nether did it because they thought it was cool, not because it was ever the best way to generate power.

Sure, ill go make my own modpack and tesseracts will be disabled along with ender chests, but come on, dont tell me things havent gotten more powerful.

They haven't. Most definitely they are less powerful since 1.2.5 and the days of EE2. Arguably, they've gotten less powerful in 1.6.4 with the successive nerfs to Steve's Carts, Forestry, Railcraft and IC2. Not to mention not having RP frames anymore. Or not being able to make turtles with rubies any more. Or logistics pipes now requiring power. Or not having a decent non-power using autocrafting table any more. Or the nerfs to Power Converters that made steam not quite as cheap. Some stuff has gotten easier, but a lot of mod devs have gone out of their way to rebalance or make things harder and less accessible.

 

[Bomb Bloke]

I thought that BuildCraft pipe explosions were quite intentional - whether every explosion was intended I cannot say (but I know they've never exploded on me without good reason - the last instance I can remember where some guy had them do it under "mysterious circumstances" turned out to be a misplaced a chunk loader), but I'd hardly call the full removal of pipe explosions a "fix". A counter for Thermal Expansion, maybe, which'd recently undermined much of BuildCraft's power transportation system (prompting a manta around these parts of "just use conduits!" being chanted at everyone who asked how to use it), but a bug fix? Seriously? And I suppose it was just a coincidence that the same update removed transfer loss?

Now TE is stand-alone, I'm seeing posts calling for the death of BC - and I'll just bet they're because TE is easier on the server processor. Yeah. That's what it is. Not because it's simpler and easier to set up a base with it. But let's face it, BuildCraft makes for a much more interesting potato knish factory.

(I also wasn't aware that BuildCraft pipes could now take fluids and items at the same time, though when it comes to that, I wasn't aware that ANY pipe system could.)

MystCraft is another great example of player mentality at the moment - it really is a game-breaker in that I can't count the number of systems it circumvents (prompting players to simply skip them), but any suggestion of removing it from the main packs and there's an uproar (because that's where the bar's been raised!). I'd argue that what "makes a better game" and what "players want" aren't always the same thing, and all this leads to players getting bored of their worlds sooner.

Whether players who want "simple ways to the top" are "right" or not is clearly a silly argument, as it boils down to opinion and everyone's got their own about what's fun for them. But I do get the impression that most players are no longer taking the long routes, leading to a mod maker mentality of "simplify or die", and I can certainly see how a pack without certain mods (new or old) will lead to much more interesting problems to solve for some players.

Speaking of, granted MystCraft has been around for ages, but to the best of my understanding liquid UU is relatively new. If grinding out simple books to access an ocean of the stuff isn't a clear example of power creep, I'm not sure what is.

And don't get me started on Morph. I don't like the idea of adding it to the main packs at all.