Is "discovering" fun?

[PhilHibbs]

I don't get the fun side of blundering through someone's pre-programmed series of "discoveries". Specifically I'm referring to Thaumcraft and Forestry. I've been messing around with bees for a couple of days now and I have no idea what I'm supposed to be doing. I just want some Royal Jelly so I can make Dispersion Capsules. So far I've got one Cultivated princess and a three Common princesses and a bunch that keep alternating between different species each generation depending on what drone I breed them with. It's been a frustrating waste of time. I looked up all the Thaumcraft stuff so that I could try to navigate my way through the discovery, and I don't feel like I missed out on the fun of discovering it myself. Having tried to fo bees by the discovery route, I think I was right to read up on "spoilers", and now I'm going to do the same for bees.

 

[Jess887cp]

I suppose it depends. First time I ever wen't into vanilla minecraft, it was as I would any game; completely blind, expecting some sort of tutorial. Finding none, I was extremely frustrated until I found the wiki after leaving it (minecraft) for awhile. I did the same thing with FTB, but only after watching the beginning of a lets play, and discovered the rest myself, pretty much. Sometimes I do absorb large amounts of wikis, but I still go mostly blind. It's fun enough, but is slightly limiting. For example, I hardly knew MFR existed until visiting the forums. Now parts of it are almost integral in my builds.

Extremely tedious or complicated things like bees I unabashedly look up though. Damn things. And I loved discovering a few of my trees, but after getting nowhere for awhile, it's definitely worth looking stuff up.

So discovery can be fun, but it shouldn't be grindy. I can only enjoy my thaumcraft research up to a point, then I just look everything up and grind it all out, and even that is horrible. Discovering the IC2 tech tree was cool, for example. I just had to figure out configurations, not anything silly like hidden items.

 

[Ako_the_Builder]

I use wikis for both thaumcraft and bee breeding and don't see anything wrong with it.

I did thaumcraft legit the first time (magic world beta I think) and have done it 3 or 4 times since on different worlds using the wiki to "target" my research at specific things.

Vanilla bees might be fun to guess at, but with extra and thaumic bees and nearly 200 species doing it all, and even remotely keeping track of it all, by guesswork is unreasonable, imo.

I'd like to be able to find or craft things in game that provide the functionality the wikis are providing in both these cases, a findable/craftable book(s) or other item(s) that list required aspects or specific species genealogy etc.

edit: thaumcraft idea - combine a book with a knowledge fragment in an arcane worktable to get a book that shows the required aspects for a random unlearned bit of research. (I'd still probably use the wiki though tbh...)

 

[Chocorate]

I find it fun if i have a way of getting hints at what to do next and it isn't a huge guessing game. Like, not traincraft.

 

[PonyKuu]

It's the way to balance things. Other ways is making things less useful, or making them more expensive.

 

[Hyperme]

Thaumcraft Research is great until:

a) You have absolutely no idea what you need to finish a thing.
b) You want a certain thing. Have fun randomly getting three other things that are available with the same aspect, which will show up if you try for a different thing.
c) You need some rare aspect like the Flux one.

At which points it's flaws become the most annoying thing in the game. Seriously dude why did you think 'put random crap in GUI and click' would be any better than TC2's system.

As for Bees, read a guide. There is no logic. No seriously, how does Common + Mundane = Cultivated? GENETICS DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY!

 

[djtlite138]

A new kind of thaumcraft worldgen would be cool, sort of like the ars magica buildings but with started research notes.

 

[Golrith]

I think both mods could do with chest loot (books) that gives you clues about things you can discover.

 

[natnif36]

TC3 research is fun the first time, without guides.
The second time perhaps doable without guides, as you begin to contemplate things like, hmm, it seems that nether wart has mutatio... I hunted down 100000 wisps for nothing. Also trapdoor have Motus... Could have saved 2x as much wood if I hadn't used doors (or quicksilver -_-)

The third time, and all after that, when you just want to be able to make a house that can't be griefed, or a farm that doesn't take power... Or the wand if equal trade to be able to terraform things faster, etc, and you keep getting stuff you don't want/ need/see how it's useful.
Eg the arcane ear. What can it do that WR:CE can't?
Or anything that needs sano...
Or The worst culpirt, the theory of everything - Y U NO GIVE ME STRAW GOLEM!!! I DON'T WANT TO USE UP ALL MY SHIT TO RESEARCH SOMETHING I CAN'T AFFORD!!!

It's quite annoying really.

 

[PhilHibbs]

Eg the arcane ear. What can it do that WR:CE can't?

It's not fair to compare Thaumcraft to a technology mod. Different modders have different opinions on what should be easy and what should be possible, Arcane Ear is awesomely cool even though I can't think of a single use for it.

 

[natnif36]

I wasn't saying it wasn't cool.
I was saying how its a particularly annoying research when it comes up, and that its not useful once you have it.
But by no means did I say the principal behind it wasn't cool.

 

[Zjarek_S]

Eg the arcane ear. What can it do that WR:CE can't?

Buttons that are easier to press while riding cart. I even ended making portable noteblock to operate it remotely.

 

[Thunderz8olt]

I use wikis for thaumcraft because discovering the researches on their own is just way too time consuming. Even with using the wiki it is horrible. I havent felt bad about doing so either because I am usually just trying to get certain items our of thaumcraft, not everything.

 

[natnif36]

Buttons that are easier to press while riding cart. I even ended making portable noteblock to operate it remotely.

But why would one need to press a button whilst riding a cart 0.0?
Railcraft can automatically switch the tracks based off incoming traffic, amount of carts in that lane/route, where you have come from etc. people don't tend to realise the power those signal blocks have.
Also, Steves carts lets you "drive" the cart.
And if on 1.5 let's you play games whilst doing so

I guess using it as a big button however may be useful/aesthetically pleasing at times, but it can feel kinda obselete at times.

TL;DR
natnif36 doesn't like to hate on things.

 

[Zjarek_S]

But why would one need to press a button whilst riding a cart 0.0?
Railcraft can automatically switch the tracks based off incoming traffic, amount of carts in that lane/route, where you have come from etc. people don't tend to realise the power those signal blocks have.
Also, Steves carts lets you "drive" the cart.
And if on 1.5 let's you play games whilst doing so

The problem with Steve's carts was that they were slower than normal carts with booster rails last time I tried it, specially on diagonal segments.. And I'm talking about manual movement, I tend to build in many remote locations (less lag, mainly graphical, but I can also disable chunkloaders in systems that I don't need running) and carts are my main way of travelling. If only you could go through nether portal on a cart, chest carts work without major issues.

 

[natnif36]

Do Steves carts not work on booster rails?
That sounds kinda odd...
Also it depends what engines you use.

But what was the whole button thing about?
And are you playing Mindcrack or something? Because every other pack has mystcraft...

Anyways, I did see sot mead on his FC1 using the ear/note block as a large button.
Would be cool if they could do things with records, so one could have a whole range of note blocks to find out easily heat notes make up the record song, so they can automate its playing.
Or a way to detect when a song is over...

 

[Zjarek_S]

Do Steves carts not work on booster rails?
That sounds kinda odd...
Also it depends what engines you use.

But what was the whole button thing about?
And are you playing Mindcrack or something? Because every other pack has mystcraft...

They work for a short while after booster track, but they slow down quickly.

I used Mindcrack pack for about a week before I got annoyed with lack of mod updates. Now I'm playing on 1.5.2. I just don't like Mystcraft as transport device in the same world and in SSP traveling in cart doesn't cause problems.

 

[natnif36]

1.5.2? So you don't have mystcraft at all?
That would explain it.

And I guess, and can see your point, but I still cannot understand what this button is for?
For changing track or something?

 

[Zjarek_S]

I didn't use mystcraft portals since 1.3, so lack of update isn't an issue here.

Exactly, you push button, you go to more minor railroad on that crossing.

 

[baw179]

I don't get the fun side of blundering through someone's pre-programmed series of "discoveries". Specifically I'm referring to Thaumcraft and Forestry. I've been messing around with bees for a couple of days now and I have no idea what I'm supposed to be doing. I just want some Royal Jelly so I can make Dispersion Capsules. So far I've got one Cultivated princess and a three Common princesses and a bunch that keep alternating between different species each generation depending on what drone I breed them with. It's been a frustrating waste of time. I looked up all the Thaumcraft stuff so that I could try to navigate my way through the discovery, and I don't feel like I missed out on the fun of discovering it myself. Having tried to fo bees by the discovery route, I think I was right to read up on "spoilers", and now I'm going to do the same for bees.

Phil you've pretty much summed up my thoughts on TC and Bees. I love the stuff you can get from TC such as the levitators, WOET, warded stuff, thaumium grafter (with Repair II it's a God send for Forestry tree breeding) but the aggro involved in getting it is just ridiculous. I had a serious go at it a while back and lasted all of half an hour before rage quitting it. Can't remember exactly what I was doing but I vaguely recall it being something to do with researching metals. I'd tried everything obvious and not-so-obvious and it still wouldn't work. I later found out from our resident TC guy that the metal I was trying to get needed.... wait for it... apples!! WT actual F?! I mean come on man, seriously? That was about 3 months ago and I haven't touched it since. If I need any TC items I just get someone else to make them. I may go back to it at some point but I'll be using the TC3 wiki which tells you exactly what you need for each aspect.

I can relate to your bee problems as well because I was in that exact same spot just a few weeks ago. I'd get as far as a common or cultivated and they when trying for the next one I'd lose the cultivated and be back down with a Forest princess or some crap. A bunch of bee experts on here guided me through it though and I understand how it works now. Basically (and what none of the wikis or youtube "tutorials" tell you) is that for each new species you get you need to cook up a stack of pure drones for that species before trying for your next species. That way, if you "lose" your princess and it mutates to another species, you can put her back through with some of those pure drones you cooked up and after a few life cycles she'll turn back to what you want. You use the same method if you want to clone a princess too. Say you want to add a 2nd line for royal jelly producion with imperial bees. You can take any princess, such as forest and with your stack of pure imperial drones you can run them through an apiary and you'll eventually get a pure imperial princess after a few runs. First run you'll probably get a forest-imperial hybrid princess and an imperial-forest drone. Run the princess through again, but with another PURE imperial drone. If you're lucky the princess will mutate to an imperial-forest hybrid and probably a drone of the same (if not, run her through again with another PURE imperial drone). 4th or 5th time you should find that she's now a pure imperial princess. Make sure you use your beealyser after each life cycle to see what the active and inactive traits are. When they're both the same then it's stable ("pure"). Use soul frames to increase the chances of a mutation, but only if the mutation is listed on the neesirojgaming bee wiki, eg. if you're trying to get nobles then use them with a common and culti as it will greatly increase the chances, but if you were trying to turn your forest princess into an imperial princess with some imperial drones then soul frames don't do anything there; what you'd use instead are chocolate frames as these kill off the bees quickly which means you don't have to sit about waiting for them to die naturally.

Once you get your head around all that bee breeding becomes 1000x easier. Get some tropicals running for the silky propolis which you run through the squeezer again for a chance of normal propolis and then make yourself some apiarist pipes to automate the production. Put a wood pipe on the back of the apiary with autarchic gate (redstone signal off : energy pulser), stone pipe connected to it down the back of the apiary, apiarist pipe connected underneath and then another pipe off that to a chest or something. Set the white filter on the apiarist pipe to "any bees" and set whichever filter to your chest to "anything". What will happen is when your bees die they will all get pulled out by the autarchic gate and the princess and drones will be re-inserted in the bottom and any items/combs will go to your chest. At basic level you want to have tropicals running for propolis for more apiarist pipes and also marbled/meadows/forest bees running for honey drops (30% chance) for your beealyser. Commons are 5% better for honey production than those (35%) and cultivated are 5% better than commons (40% chance).

You'll have your imperial bees in next to no time!