Institutional Hypocrisy: FtB's role in infringing Mojang's copyright.

[Recon]

What a mess.

I'm starting to think that being pedantic about media rights is a mental disorder. Its just setting yourself up for being perpetually frustrated. The whole thing is essentially based on the honor system, and with 99% of all people being at least partially dishonorable, how could such a system possibly function as expected by the idealists? What objective standard is there which confirms the concept of media rights? Without such a thing, the entire system devolves into a sort of semi-anarchy, where each individual person behaves based on their own comfort level.

 

[bwillb]

The way I see it, it's more of a case by case situation, for your example, no that would be wrong, but for much more minor things like textures where no money is being lost by this happening, I see that as perfectly acceptable.

So stealing code is bad, but stealing artwork is acceptable?

 

[AWESOMESAUCE]

Well, isn't mojang's words conflicting with itself?

Excerpt from minecraft terms of use(https://minecraft.net/terms):

"If you've bought the game, you may play around with it and modify it. We'd appreciate it if you didn't use this for griefing, though, and remember not to distribute the changed versions of our software. Basically, mods (or plugins, or tools) are cool (you can distribute those), hacked versions of the Minecraft client or server are not (you can't distribute those)."

It says that mods are distributable... Explicitly... Ftb is ok then?

/thread?

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[bwillb]

It says that mods are distributable... Explicitly... Ftb is ok then?

Mods are okay. Distributing Mojang assets is not. This thread isn't about whether mods are legal or not, it's about certain mods that take Mojang art assets, apply a hue filter or some other minor detail change, and then distribute them as their own work.

 

[AWESOMESAUCE]

Mods are okay. Distributing Mojang assets is not. This thread isn't about whether mods are legal or not, it's about certain mods that take Mojang art assets, apply a hue filter or some other minor detail change, and then distribute them as their own work.

An, I see. Nevermind then, my post is invalid

 

[BoneDisturbed]

Didn't a thread exactly like this get locked not to long ago, + it gave an explanation from Mod ? Starting to smell alot like trolling....

 

[Puremin0rez]

Mods are okay. Distributing Mojang assets is not. This thread isn't about whether mods are legal or not, it's about certain mods that take Mojang art assets, apply a hue filter or some other minor detail change, and then distribute them as their own work.

I actually have experienced quite a few mods doing that - pretty lame. I highly appreciate unique textures over crappy little recolors.

I know FTB is at blame here for distributing it, but it's really the mod developers doing this kind of thing and should be addressed to them to fix it. FTB is just giving us what we all want.

 

[MFINN23]

As a person without a horse in this race, why would you care? Seems to me that the more competition and even outright copying, the better it is for the user. If the originator wants to keep it's business it needs to work to keep ahead of it's copiers and maintain an edge or at least offer a product as good as it's competitors. It's great to use FTB because they seem committed to put out a quality product and have the straight from the source edge. But if tekkit started doing it better I wouldn't feel bad heading over there. Same goes with Mojang, if they want to stay ahead of the game they need to keep updating their product to stay ahead of the modders. And in reverse I wouldn't even mind if they copied directly from the modders instead of just using concepts. Copyright slows progress.

 

[vasouv]

I'm very sorry to ask this but, can someone explain to me in a couple of sentences what's going on here? I'm not a native English speaker and right now I'm struggling to understand all these legal stuff...

 

[Zivel]

I'm very sorry to ask this but, can someone explain to me in a couple of sentences what's going on here? I'm not a native English speaker and right now I'm struggling to understand all these legal stuff...

There is a claim that some members of the FtB community are being hypocritical. They proclaim the virtues of FtB having mod authors support and that not having their permission is unethical. Yet FtB is distributing Mojangs art work that has been altered slightly and does not have permission. FtB is technically on shaky ground legally and is ethically doing the same as mod packs that do not ask for permission.

 

[cramsin]

OK I Have spoken to someone within Mojang to bring this issue to their attention. Having done this we will now be following the rules of Copyright

http://www.copyrightservice.co.uk/copyright/p05_copyright_infringement

Following the 1st Guideline, Mojang are now free to make specific claims of copyright infringement on any of their assets being redistributed. We will fully respect any requests Mojang may choose to make to FTB to halt any distribution of their assets through the FTB launcher.

I will leave this thread open for 24-48 hours for comments and then it will be locked as the question has been effectively answered.

So even though Mojang explicitly prohibit distributing textures in their terms, you're going to go ahead anyway and if they don't like it they can complain? That doesn't seem to be in the spirit of Feed the Beast, I thought this was about getting explicit permissions for everything in the pack.

 

[raiju]

So even though Mojang explicitly prohibit distributing textures in their terms, you're going to go ahead anyway and if they don't like it they can complain? That doesn't seem to be in the spirit of Feed the Beast, I thought this was about getting explicit permissions for everything in the pack.

"If you've bought the game, you may play around with it and modify it. We'd appreciate it if you didn't use this for griefing, though, and remember not to distribute the changed versions of our software. Basically, mods (or plugins, or tools) are cool (you can distribute those), hacked versions of the Minecraft client or server are not (you can't distribute those)."

FTB did what they believed was legal. Since someone brought up the possible illegality of this (remembering that they do have support from some Mojang staff already so they had no reason to be suspicious previously) with another excerpt from the Terms, Slowpoke is asking Mojang to scrutinize FTB and call out anything they want removed/remade. He is doing the best he can do in this situation short of also taking down the download (which will do little since most people will already have a copy on their pc)

 

[Bagman817]

So even though Mojang explicitly prohibit distributing textures in their terms, you're going to go ahead anyway and if they don't like it they can complain? That doesn't seem to be in the spirit of Feed the Beast, I thought this was about getting explicit permissions for everything in the pack.

You didn't read what you quoted. Slowpoke spoke with Mojang regarding the issue, and said they'll stop distributing their assets upon request. Obviously, they didn't make such a request. It'd be more than a little silly of them to do so, as I'm certain that the very existence of the FTB pack is driving their sales. You remember that a purchase of the game is required to play, correct?

I imagine the conversation went something like "Hey, keep doing what you're doing, sales are up 20% since FTB released! The lawyers say I have to tell you we reserve the right to ask you to make changes, but I don't know why we would."

 

[Darlock Ahe]

I'm just going to comment once on this thread and not going to argue with anyone about my point of view.
Fact is that Mojang is aware of mods being developed as they are developed
Fact is that Mojang chose not to do anything about that.
If Mojang is to start any legal action, then they have to start it against ALL mods (that can infrige on their copyright) at once, there is no middle ground here, you either do it against everyone or you are not doing it at all.
And I'm almost sure that line from https://minecraft.net/terms covers assets as part of mod. Assets are not being redistributed on their own and are part of modification to the original game. Difference between this and modifying someones mod is that mod authors state if you can modify their code or not. (for example you can take EE3 source and make your own version of it, you just have to state that it was derived from EE3 and place information about it)

That is all.

 

[The Heresiarch]

I don't see any problem with the course Slowpoke took, which seems very reasonable to me. He is saying that Mojang can choose to call out any copyright infringement if they want to -- if they don't, then it's effectively status quo anyway. Everyone should be happy.

 

[CoderJ]

I responded and redacted earlier, going to respond again now that I see that Slowpoke has had an official answer.... it boils down to this.... (Terms of Use from http://minecraft.net/terms )(I'm no getting into the Branding Guidelines, they are in addition to the TOU and do not override it).

The One Major Rule
Do not distribute anything we've made. This includes, but not limited to, the client or the server software for the game. This also includes modified versions of anything we've made. Also, you may not resell any gift codes or licence keys - but of course you can give gift codes as gifts. This is necessary so that we can help stop piracy and fraud - and especially users buying keys that have been fraudulently obtained.
In order to ensure integrity of the game, we need all game downloads to come from a single central source: us. We hope you understand. It's also important for us that 3rd party tools/services don't seem "too official" as we can't guarantee their quality. Make sure to read through our brand guidelines. If you wish to make something pertaining to anything we've made we're humbled, but please make sure that it can't be interpreted as being official. Do not make commercial use of anything we've made unless specifically authorized by us in our brand and assets usage guidelines (which you should read as each of these policies form part of these Terms of Use).

What You Can Do
If you've bought the game, you may play around with it and modify it. We'd appreciate it if you didn't use this for griefing, though, and remember not to distribute the changed versions of our software. Basically, mods (or plugins, or tools) are cool (you can distribute those), hacked versions of the Minecraft client or server are not (you can't distribute those).
Any tools you write for the game from scratch belongs to you. Other than commercial use (unless specifically authorized by us in our brand and assets usage guidelines - for instance you are allowed to put ads on your YouTube videos containing Minecraft footage), you're free to do whatever you want with screenshots and videos of the game, but don't just rip art resources and pass them around, that's no fun. Plugins for the game also belong to you and you can do whatever you want with them, as long as you don't sell them for money. We reserve the final say regarding what constitutes a tool/plugin and what doesn't.

Four things should catch your eye....

1. Do not distribute anything we've made. ... This also includes modified version of anything we've made. <--- This is the primary concern; the textures being distributed are modified versions of their own.
2. If you've bought the game, you may play around with it and modify it. ... Basically, mods (or plugins, or tools) are cool (you can distribute those)...Simply stated, make mods. This includes editing the textures and base classes to change how the game plays as long as it's not used to grief. (that's what's missing from the ...)
3. Plugins* for the game also belong to you and you can do whatever you want with them, as long as you don't sell them for money.
   *Refers to plugins, but is obviously meant to include mods. Basically, don't sell what you made and you can give them to other people to play with on their copy of Minecraft.
4. We reserve the final say regarding what constitutes a tool/plugin and what doesn't.This means if Mojang decides that a mod is just ripping off assets (violating copyright), they reserve the right to say it's not a mod and is not protected by the Terms of Use... which means it then can not be distributed. Pretty simple.

Finally,

If there's anything legal you're wondering about that isn't answered from this page, don't do it and ask us about it. Basically, don't be ridiculous and we won't.

This is big and exactly what slowpoke did; when there was valid reason to wonder about the legality of some mods, he asked about it. Basically, Mojang is willing to work with everyone as long as they keep cool. There's nothing wrong with that and that is one of the reasons why the mod community (for the most part) tends to be cool with Mojang (if they weren't, there would be far less mods).

[EDIT] Just to be clear; if you're not a lawyer involved in this or slowpoke/Mojang, your opinion is just that. Please don't try and pass the internet bar; real lawyers love to make meals out of people like that. Accept you don't know if there is a case or not and that ultimately, at the end of the day, it's up to the owner of property and his/her lawyers as to what action they think they can take. I'm being as polite as possible in hopes no one embarrasses themselves, realizing it vastly discounts what I've written previous to this.

 

[Gerhard]

There's nothing wrong with mods. It's mutual interest for the three parties involved to support the production of mods even if they use modified Mojang textures.
Minecraft Community:
More content to enjoy. More players attracted by mods.
Mod developers:
Status in the Minecraft community. Support through donations. Coding experience. More content to enjoy.
Mojang:
More money because of more players buying Minecraft to play mods. More publicity (FTB is going to be at PAX, after all). Existing owners of Minecraft return or play longer than they would have.

Any assertion that the modifying of Mojang textures makes a mod detrimental, hypocritical, or disrespectful to Mojang is absurd - The contribution that mods like Thermal Expansion make to Mojang financially greatly outweighs any sort of financial gain Mojang would obtain by pursuing mods. How do I know this as some bystander behind a computer? If it were in Mojang's financial interest to attack mods, legally, they would.

 

[slowpoke]

OK so now that people have had a chance to look at this, I would like to clarify a few things. The following statements are purely my own, nothing from the following should be inferred as being official or come from anyone other than myself.

With regards to mods using textures from Minecraft, the lawyers will always tell Mojang that they must protect their assets. However actions so far have indicated that these terms are for the benefit of the lawyers. It is my impression that in reality Mojang is quite happy with the way the modding scene is developing, especially as they are essentially expanding Minecraft to make modding easier. I dont imagine Mojangs terms and conditions will change any time soon, however I also don't imagine that they will be issuing me with any take down notices any time soon. This is main difference with this issue is in the past our objections to certain other mod packs was they were distributing mods against the wishes of the mod developer, in this case mod textures are not being distributed against the wishes of Mojang.

 

[Greyed]

3) Mojang doesn't _really_ care (argument from Internet Telepathy.)

Mojang stated that they care in their rules. End of story.

Well done, sir, well done. Except it fails here. I'm pretty sure if Mojang had a problem with anything done with FtB it would be up to them to inform the appropriate people. Also, I'm quite positive Mojang is aware of FtB. If you watch the later episodes of DW20's SMP LP you'll notice one individiual on the Forge server, the server where many of the FtB authors go to test their mods for compatibility with other mods, with the name of Grumm. Grumm also has his cape enabled and it is a Mojang cape. Grumm is the Mojang employee who is working on the promised mod API.

I don't know about you, but I'm pretty sure a Mojang employee on the Forge server, from which the majority of FtB is derived, would have blown the whistle long ago if Mojang had a problem with it. That's not internet telepathy, that's fact. So get off your high horse, they don't need you to defend them.

 

[FivEven]

There once was a town, not a perfect town, but a good one. The people there watched and listened to the community leaders/developers. They saw how their leaders got along with the Mayor of the town even. The community of this town felt strong and happy. That cooperation was at it's highest!

Then the stranger came.

The stranger, being a lawful individual and wishing to join the town, read the laws of the town to the letter, and saw that there was an interpretation that was not being followed by the community. This interpretation would show the leaders/developers to be performing illegal acts! When he gazed upon the community, he saw that they acted as if they were doing nothing wrong. That the people there felt their leaders where good people also.

The stranger saw this, and made a choice.

The stranger would not join a community that were performing acts of piracy. The community was too trusting of it's leaders too. But still, wishing to be apart of something greater than himself, he set about to "right" this "wrong" so he might allow this community to accept him.

He did not bring this information to the Mayor, or even the community leaders/developers. No, he went to the town square and shouted "Hypocrisy!" at all the people. "I will not join such a community as yours! You are thieves and pirates! Your leaders ignore the law! Follow the law now and I will join this community!"

The community was quite confused! So much information, so fast, and not really understanding why this stranger was attacking them. Many from the community were upset, and sought to correct this individual. But it was for naught, as the stranger has yet to learn. It was not the information, correct or not, it was the stranger himself that was the issue!

Out of story... Seriously?! Who attacks a community they want to join? Discretion, I suggest you learn it.

And in the future, take off your self appointed mantle of pariah and try to understand why it is most people don't like how you talk to them...