In what way are iron and ender pearls equivalent?

[MagusUnion]

Equivalent Exchange 3 MUST incorporate abstract costs---such as the difficulty of acquiring one item over another---into its equivalency mechanic. Failure to do so will rob other mods of the ability to control their powerful features by requiring rare items; rob the game of hours of play by making numerous objectives redundant (e.g. building an Ender Pearl farm); and rob FTB as a whole of any hope of holistic game balance.

Location:Toronto, Ontario, Canada

The only reason it "kills" balance is because you choose to use it. "BUT MOOOOOOOOOOOOOM THE OTHER KIDS ARE USING IT!" Stop being a child. If you can't stand seeing people using a method more efficient or simply different from your own; don't play SMP.

Am I, the only one who sees the irony in these few lines?

Spoiler

Flowerchild is a 'separatist' from Ontario, Canada.
Part of why he pulled out of Forge is because other mods were affecting his mod's 'balance' and design
First Quote is arguing about interacting mod designs
Second Quote is calling the first quoter a 'child'...

Coincidence?

 

[Eunomiac]

I left off my kid gloves because I didn't think I needed them. My mistake, I thought we were above the need for disclaimers like "this is only my opinion as to what is necessary for a healthy FTB modpack", or "I understand mod authors owe me nothing", or "I really quite like pahimar, and think his contributions to Minecraft are among the best there are".

Expressing a strongly-held opinion is neither a rant nor an attack, and it is not a call for insults. Yes, there are a lot of arrogant, immature, hostile people on the internet. There are also a lot of people who express their opinions strongly, but respectfully, without resorting to insults. (You would do well to learn the difference, so you can avoid the embarrassment of becoming the very thing you condemn.)

He doesn't have to have any sort of logical reasoning or any reasoning for that matter. It's his mod. He doesn't have to play nice with other mods nor does he have to arbitrarily concede to a non-existant idea of balance the elitist pricks of the FTB community seem to have come up with.

Quite simply balance is subjective to each person and does not exist universally and he can make his mod do whatever he wants it to. End of discussion.

You're absolutely right: Indeed, no one has to do anything, at all, ever. This, of course, is irrelevant and proves nothing. No one is asserting obligations to be enforced by moral imperative or divine edict; I didn't think I had to spell that out. I'm discussing my opinions on the best way to achieve a subjective (yes, subjective---we agree on that, too) goal: namely, the ideal FTB modpack.

And I stand by my opinions: EE3, as it currently stands, damages the FTB modpack by broadly subverting the "market value" of rare items on which other mods rely for balance---which, in your opinion, is "a non-existant idea ... the elitist pricks of the FTB community seem to have come up with".

See the difference?

 

[RetroGamer1224]

Lol wow. Okay first off here is an opinion. What market value are you speaking of? As has been said before Pahimar is probably using the old EMC values for things. When he can there may probably be a config file for the mod so you can make ender pearls need the equivalent of over twenty diamonds just to make one ender pearl. I also guess you will never make a ender man farm to get pearls for if you did with odd changing to the config file then you can get massive buttload of diamonds.

EE3 is fine as it is. Disable it if you don't want it. No one has your family tied up and about to be fed to a Gregtech fission reactor.

Thank you.

 

[Mero]

I'd love to see you try to get all that with a most likely stone sword and no armor. Not to mention the second you touch one of those ores(Non-GT that is) you're about to get mauled by a team of pigs that are eager to penetrate you. Not to mention once their mad; they stay mad. Overall you could get access to some of the basic parts of the nether(glowstone, sand, netherrack, nether brick, etc. Much of anything beyond that is mostly out of your reach until you're in a position to better yourself and by that point you could have gotten the obsidian anyway.

On hard mode I go to the nether with only stone tools, a stone sword and no armor. All before getting diamonds and generally only 4 iron.
I come back with netherrack, netherbrick, soulsand, glowstone dust, netherward, blaze rods and more often than not magma cream.

The nether IS NOT hard. Just stay out of sight. Dig through the netherrack instead of walking out in the open.
When you find a blaze spawner, block off open access around you that they can use to get to you then dig below the spawner then only open up a couple of blocks and only let them drop so that their feet are at your head level.

If you need cross a lava lake dig above it. Gravel helps to get down.
The nether is only hard if you are reckless.

 

[RetroGamer1224]

@Mero: I never thought about digging about a lava lake. Nice idea ^_^

This also answers my personal question on what can mine netherbrick. Apparently stone. Sweeeeet

 

[Hydra]

Pulverizer isn't in vanilla. Therefore, your argument is invalid.

Oh my. It's funny how defensive people get on these forums. Have it your way.

 

[Eunomiac]

What market value are you speaking of?

I'm broadly referring to the relative value of items in Minecraft, which is rather on-point when discussing a mod based on transmuting items. I'm using the market as an analogy to acknowledge that this is a subjective thing, but, like the market, the fact that it's subjective doesn't diminish its importance.

As has been said before Pahimar is probably using the old EMC values for things.

I think that's probably right. My original point was that, however EE3 turns out, I hope he takes abstract considerations into account when creating the new values for things. He's already shown evidence of that by no longer allowing direct transmutation of Cobblestone to Stone (i.e. the need to smelt is an abstract consideration which is now accounted for). I'm also looking forward to Red Water... I hope it provides some degree of risk when using EE3, like Azanor has done with ThaumCraft's Taint and Flux mechanics.

When he can there may probably be a config file for the mod

I desperately hope so; this would be the cleanest solution to differing opinions on the value of items, and it would allow mods to add "EMC" (or whatever the new system will be) values to their items.

I also guess you will never make a ender man farm to get pearls for if you did with odd changing to the config file then you can get massive buttload of diamonds

I use Quarries too much to waste my Ender Pearls on mere Diamonds

Disable it if you don't want it. No one has your family tied up and about to be fed to a Gregtech fission reactor.

First of all, my family is (largely) comprised of carbon-based life forms, which don't make the best fissile material. Maybe something from Forestry...

Second, "disable it if you don't want it" is not quite relevant to a discussion about improving a modpack. It would be better to find a solution that makes as many people as possible happy, so that as many people as possible can play with EE3.

 

[Hoff]

You're absolutely right: Indeed, no one has to do anything, at all, ever. This, of course, is irrelevant and proves nothing. No one is asserting obligations to be enforced by moral imperative or divine edict; I didn't think I had to spell that out. I'm discussing my opinions on the best way to achieve a subjective (yes, subjective---we agree on that, too) goal: namely, the ideal FTB modpack.

Your* ideal FTB modpack. That's the whole point. There is no "the ideal FTB modpack." It will never exist.

 

[RetroGamer1224]

While I may disagree with Hoff on things he is 100% correct. There never will be an ideal modpack. You can design one as you see fit. Not every mod maker has to make considerations for every other mod. Some do and that is fine but it is not written in stone that they need to. Again if it feels "cheaty" to you then don't use it. You do have free will.

 

[Volpe42]

Now correct me if I am wrong but hard to get would then mean that things like glowstone in the old EE2 would have a lower value then they did seeing how they aren't that hard to get. I believe Lambert's stating usefullness is far more correct then terms of hard to acquire.

They are hard to get if you are playing on a server that is populated quite well.

 

[Dravarden]

Your* ideal FTB modpack. That's the whole point. There is no "the ideal FTB modpack." It will never exist.

for me it does.

 

[Hoff]

for me it does.

Your ideal ftb pack does, yes, but not "the ideal ftb modpack" because that implies a universally accepted and preferred modpack by all or almost all.

 

[RetroGamer1224]

If your server is lacking of mats then try asking or trading with your fellow players????

 

[Dravarden]

Your ideal ftb pack does, yes, but not "the ideal ftb modpack" because that implies a universally accepted and preferred modpack by all or almost all.

well, of course, is impossible to please everybody.

edit: maybe that is the reason we have the "edit pack" option? hell, if you don't like an official pack, make it yourself.

 

[Peter_Gunnn]

Ask yourselves: What do you have more of? Gold or Ender Pearls? Diamonds or Ender Pearls? Even better, multiply your stock of Ender Pearls by four: How does that number compare to your stock of Iron Ingots? Any one of these questions should starkly illustrate how absurd a 4:1 conversion rate is. Perhaps more viscerally, what makes you groan the most when you see it in a recipe: four Diamonds, or four Ender Pearls? What about four Gold Ingots vs. four Ender Pearls, which is the actual EE3 conversion rate?

too bad there isn't a 100% effective, 100% vanilla enderfarm.....

i'll give enderballs for metal or anything else all day

 

[RetroGamer1224]

I seen some awesome vanilla enderfarms.

 

[Dravarden]

too bad there isn't a 100% effective, 100% vanilla enderfarm.....

i'll give enderballs for metal or anything else all day

lol, you really think there aren't? what do you mean by 100% effective? that the spawn spaces have 100% efficiency or what? because I made one like that. In vanilla, in survival

 

[PhilHibbs]

too bad there isn't a 100% effective, 100% vanilla enderfarm.....
i'll give enderballs for metal or anything else all day

Monkeyfarm made one in his 3rd World LP. In what way does a 42-m rectangular drop trench in the End not count as 100% effective?

 

[Lambert2191]

Monkeyfarm made one in his 3rd World LP. In what way does a 42-m rectangular drop trench in the End not count as 100% effective?

I'm pretty sure he didn't come up with the design himself. He very rarely does come up with his own designs for things, but he does make them look very very awesome (and always cites his sources for where he gets the designs)
I think the things he did design himself is his Mobs On Demand mob spawner, but I can't think of anything else right now (I haven't watched him in a long time and actually unsubbed recently)

 

[Dravarden]

well, panda and jl2579 did make a design, and I did also made a design, mine is 100% but uses more string and tripwire (iron), theirs has some blocks in the same Y as mobs spawn but is almost nothing, is like 99%, and uses more redstone.