Where did I say that that makes EE3 OP? Not that I agree with the mod but I was just responding to your comment that you could do the "same" as EE with 2 buckets which is simply not true.
In what way are iron and ender pearls equivalent?
- Thread starter PhilHibbs
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Where did I say that that makes EE3 OP? Not that I agree with the mod but I was just responding to your comment that you could do the "same" as EE with 2 buckets which is simply not true.
Quarries, of all kinds, are your friends.[DOUBLEPOST=1363878981][/DOUBLEPOST]
If you actually read the whole thread it might make sense.
why? Sorry but I'm being serious now? How can ANYONE truly believe that obsidian is more useful than logs? Obsidians uses: nether portal, hardened glass, enderchest, world anchor
woods uses: you know what look it up yourself there are FAAAAAAAAR more uses for it.
Just because wood is easier to come by you believe Obsidian is worth more? Bollocks.
Also, in regards to the rarity parameter, one cannot put Enderpearls into that equation as pre-End and post-End have them leagues apart. Before getting there, enderpearls are, if not difficult, but, awkward to come by. After reaching the End, they're piss easy.
Honestly I am not gung ho for mining the snot out of the nether. Other then using the lava there I am okay with doing any mining by hand and I don't, imo, see any use for nether ore that is unstable or causes piggies to get hostile. *shurg*
Hasn't anybody think already about the igneous extruder? No need for diamonds to get obsidian IN THE INVENTORY.
Well since the topic started out about iron for ender pearls I don't believe anyone was concerned about the extruder. Being said if you have a big tree farm and have logs out the yin yang why not use the minium stone to make things that aren't easy to come by at the start. Like pearls.
Pulverizer isn't in vanilla. Therefore, your argument is invalid. Only time you actually need Obsidian is either for a Nether Portal, or an Enchanting Table. After that, you will need it for vMC Ender Chests (which is complete crap), but that alone requires a Nether Fortress holding Blaze Spawns. And since the Enchanting Table cost diamonds, it'll be the only real time you'll need Obsidian in item form as you'll also need 5 diamonds in vMC to make that...
Also, Thaumium can break Obsidian, and isn't that hard to get via research either.
I was thinking about "as hard to get as", rather than "as useful as". Obsidian is a pain, as usually it forms right above more lava and you have to mess around to get it out safely. Messing around usually involving buckets, which I think was the origin of the iron suggestion.
Now correct me if I am wrong but hard to get would then mean that things like glowstone in the old EE2 would have a lower value then they did seeing how they aren't that hard to get. I believe Lambert's stating usefullness is far more correct then terms of hard to acquire.
I disagree about glowstone. You have to get to the Nether (I know, there are other ways (that depend on other mods that may or may not be present), but they are even harder to get more than a couple of pieces e.g. from a Thaumcraft tower), and then you have to get up to where there is some.
In my server group, as soon as we went into the Nether, my friends immediately stepped off the edge of a tiny platform into lava. Oops no Portal Gun any more. Then, when we'd secured the area, there was no Glowstone easily reachable, so I buit a stairway diagonally about 50 blocks up and across, and nearly got knocked off by Ghasts and Fire Bats about four times. It was only extreme paranoia and covering fire from my friends that got me up and back safely. We did discuss using the glowstone from a Thaumcraft tower to make one jet pack, but we decided that it was all for all or nothing.
You may find it easy to get glowstone, congratulations on being awesome, but not everyone does.
Umm find a village, notice there is a thaumcraft building (not always going to be there granted), climb up stairs, notice glowstone block there, open chest for chance of glowstone, break glowstone block, win glowstone. ^_^
We found two villages, one had a Thaumcraft tower, and I mentioned that we had considered that option. But, we are discussing EE3 not Thaumcraft.
*le sigh* My point is that with the new generation glowstone is a little easier to get due to TC. Back in 1.2.5 nether spawns weren't so high up in the air so getting glowstone wasn't a huge deal. You needed what twenty eight for a collector with EE2. Now spawn in the nether is a little more tricky but still it isn't that bad.
All of this mostly saying that it still is terms of usefullness and not how hard it is to gather.
All of this mostly saying that it still is terms of usefullness and not how hard it is to gather.
EE2 was much better about describing the system of EMC and the like. Give it some research to get an idea as to the basis of where they are going from.
That said, the balancing points are picked fairly randomly, especially with EE3, and they should be config file editable, but so it goes.
Also EE3 is still a big work in progress and is using EE2's EMC values untill things get hammered out.
Yes, there are plenty of EE3 conversions that are going to be controversial---the entire mod is premised on a single person establishing a game-wide economy for the lossless conversion of dirt into everything---but the topic of this thread is on the most illustrative example of EE3-gone-wrong: The absurd idea that four Iron Ingots are in any way "equivalent" to an Ender Pearl.
This makes no sense from a mechanical perspective, from a thematic perspective, from a "plays-nice-with-other-mods" perspective (which pahimar should be very cognizant of---for shame), or---most damningly---from a balance perspective.
Mods use items like Blaze Rods and Ender Pearls as balancing tools, relying on their rarity to prevent the abuse of abusable mechanics. Consider RailCraft's World Anchors, which require Ender Pearls as fuel to limit server load. Consider Thermal Expansion's Liquid Tesseracts (or Ender Chests), which can provide infinite MJ and infinite EU via Nether lava with very little infrastructure. These mod authors chose Ender Pearls---not four Iron Ingots---for a good reason: to limit the impact of these powerful features.
And then EE3 comes along, and utterly kills the Ender Pearl as any sort of balancing mechanic whatsoever.
Ask yourselves: What do you have more of? Gold or Ender Pearls? Diamonds or Ender Pearls? Even better, multiply your stock of Ender Pearls by four: How does that number compare to your stock of Iron Ingots? Any one of these questions should starkly illustrate how absurd a 4:1 conversion rate is. Perhaps more viscerally, what makes you groan the most when you see it in a recipe: four Diamonds, or four Ender Pearls? What about four Gold Ingots vs. four Ender Pearls, which is the actual EE3 conversion rate?
I've heard that the only reason FTB lacks a direct MJ-to-EU conversion device is because a balanced ratio for conversion has yet to be found. This reasoning strikes me as patently absurd when the same pack includes a mod that enables infinite energy of either type at the mere cost of a few Iron Ingots.
Equivalent Exchange 3 MUST incorporate abstract costs---such as the difficulty of acquiring one item over another---into its equivalency mechanic. Failure to do so will rob other mods of the ability to control their powerful features by requiring rare items; rob the game of hours of play by making numerous objectives redundant (e.g. building an Ender Pearl farm); and rob FTB as a whole of any hope of holistic game balance.
In my opinion, "4 Iron Ingots = 1 Ender Pearl" is, without exception or qualification, the biggest black mark on the FTB pack at the present time. It is the only component of the pack I do not use because I consider it cheating.
Edit: Just as I finished typing this (while idling in my base), an Enderman bamfed in right next to me. I killed it. No Ender Pearl. DAMMIT.
This makes no sense from a mechanical perspective, from a thematic perspective, from a "plays-nice-with-other-mods" perspective (which pahimar should be very cognizant of---for shame), or---most damningly---from a balance perspective.
Mods use items like Blaze Rods and Ender Pearls as balancing tools, relying on their rarity to prevent the abuse of abusable mechanics. Consider RailCraft's World Anchors, which require Ender Pearls as fuel to limit server load. Consider Thermal Expansion's Liquid Tesseracts (or Ender Chests), which can provide infinite MJ and infinite EU via Nether lava with very little infrastructure. These mod authors chose Ender Pearls---not four Iron Ingots---for a good reason: to limit the impact of these powerful features.
And then EE3 comes along, and utterly kills the Ender Pearl as any sort of balancing mechanic whatsoever.
Ask yourselves: What do you have more of? Gold or Ender Pearls? Diamonds or Ender Pearls? Even better, multiply your stock of Ender Pearls by four: How does that number compare to your stock of Iron Ingots? Any one of these questions should starkly illustrate how absurd a 4:1 conversion rate is. Perhaps more viscerally, what makes you groan the most when you see it in a recipe: four Diamonds, or four Ender Pearls? What about four Gold Ingots vs. four Ender Pearls, which is the actual EE3 conversion rate?
I've heard that the only reason FTB lacks a direct MJ-to-EU conversion device is because a balanced ratio for conversion has yet to be found. This reasoning strikes me as patently absurd when the same pack includes a mod that enables infinite energy of either type at the mere cost of a few Iron Ingots.
Equivalent Exchange 3 MUST incorporate abstract costs---such as the difficulty of acquiring one item over another---into its equivalency mechanic. Failure to do so will rob other mods of the ability to control their powerful features by requiring rare items; rob the game of hours of play by making numerous objectives redundant (e.g. building an Ender Pearl farm); and rob FTB as a whole of any hope of holistic game balance.
In my opinion, "4 Iron Ingots = 1 Ender Pearl" is, without exception or qualification, the biggest black mark on the FTB pack at the present time. It is the only component of the pack I do not use because I consider it cheating.
Edit: Just as I finished typing this (while idling in my base), an Enderman bamfed in right next to me. I killed it. No Ender Pearl. DAMMIT.
Take a breath and calm down will you. Looks like the EE rage is starting again. As my post above states EE# is still a work in progress. I do believe Pahimar is using EE2 EMC values for now. That is why 4 iron ingots get you an ender pearl because their emc value combined is that is one pearl.
He doesn't have to have any sort of logical reasoning or any reasoning for that matter. It's his mod. He doesn't have to play nice with other mods nor does he have to arbitrarily concede to a non-existant idea of balance the elitist pricks of the FTB community seem to have come up with.
Quite simply balance is subjective to each person and does not exist universally and he can make his mod do whatever he wants it to. End of discussion.
Hey look I have a tier 5 enderman spawner. It creates ender pearls at a rate of over 20 times that of my iron golem farm combined with automatic mining. The only reason it "kills" balance is because you choose to use it. "BUT MOOOOOOOOOOOOOM THE OTHER KIDS ARE USING IT!" Stop being a child. If you can't stand seeing people using a method more efficient or simply different from your own; don't play SMP.
It does, does it? I suggest you look at the ultimate pack. The FTB creators chose to add EE3 because they enjoy what it does not for any sort of balance reasoning. The packs are not all made to fit some arbitrary design of "balance." Not to mention as you said you do below; simply do not use it if you feel it is cheating.
The only right thing I've seen in this post. Balancing your gameplay is not up to the mod devs, FTB devs, or anyone but you. If you choose to forfeit that to an SMP server owner that's up to you. If you wish to forfeit it to what the mod devs chose to use, that's up to you. If you wish to forfeit it to what the FTB devs chose to use, that's up to you. The balance you seek in your own game falls completely on your shoulders if the mod is made correctly.
But let's be honest here; you're a child at heart and are looking for someone to do all the grunt work for you and still get your ideal gameplay even if it doesn't suit another person on this planet. You are a part of what is holding FTB back from being a perfect launcher.