In-Game Docs: Guides vs Wikis

[Kirameki]

I have to say this is one of the main reasons I like having in-game documentation, as the information there tends to be more reliable than from some other places, which may be wrong or just out-dated.

I do agree with RedBoss though, I wish books didn't spawn on you. Make the books craftable, using very basic stuff from the mod that can be found in NEI. That way, people that want it can have it and people who don't want the book or aren't bothered about the mod can ignore the book.

Well, one problem with this that I've encountered is that often you have no way of knowing a book even exists unless you search NEI for it (and they're often titled with something other than book) or happen to find one as dungeon loot. Does make it a bit harder to get started when you have no idea the documentation exists or how to acquire it.
If anything start the player off with a single book containing a list of guidebooks/manuals/etc. from the different mods. (Yeah, probably near impossible, but nice to dream.)

 

[RJS]

You can search NEI via mod name using @mod.modname, so you could look for everything from the mod that you want to get into and BAM! guidebook recipe.

 

[Kirameki]

You can search NEI via mod name using @mod.modname, so you could look for everything from the mod that you want to get into and BAM! guidebook recipe.

How many people know how to do this, though? Heck I never remember how to do this and I've been playing for a long time now; it's definitely not a user-friendly search system. Plus if you don't know a mod exists, you'll never know to look for a guidebook. Not everybody's 100% familiar with the entire contents of a modpack, and may just find x mod and stick with it, not knowing there are alternatives.

 

[RedBoss]

Personally, I don't trust wikis. I've seen too much on-line misinformation, probably intentionally created by trolls or other miscreants who think it's great fun to mess with other peoples' work. I've been "connected" since DARPAnet was the only on-line experience (if you could get access, that is) and have since learned to take anything found on the internet with enough salt to give a sperm whale angina.

I agree with the sentiment, but if a mod dev can get a book made in game, why not have it on the mod site/mcf thread. Im not arguing your point, just my preference. If a mod has so much content that it necessitates an in game manual, I'd rather get an easy to read option. I'm the type of person that would rather read the content at once and reference a legible copy than to constantly click through a pixelated book in game. Even with Thaumcraft, it takes too long to reference the aspect combination for say Auram just so you can go back and trigger the research you were after.

I'm not a fan of the information being solely in a pixelated in game book. I suppose if effort is going into documentation, I'd like an out of game option from the dev as well.

 

[Hambeau]

Well, one problem with this that I've encountered is that often you have no way of knowing a book even exists unless you search NEI for it (and they're often titled with something other than book) or happen to find one as dungeon loot. Does make it a bit harder to get started when you have no idea the documentation exists or how to acquire it.
If anything start the player off with a single book containing a list of guidebooks/manuals/etc. from the different mods. (Yeah, probably near impossible, but nice to dream.)

Since it looks like HQM is going to be a part of all the "official" FtB packs for now, a first, optional quest could be to gather other books whether through crafting (a la TiCO for books 2 & 3) or as rewards for preliminary quests. This way they can be completed by those wanting the books or skipped by those that don't. Heck, have a quest where all books for mods included in the pack are a reward for crafting a Bibliocraft bookshelf, if Bibliocraft is included in the pack.

The problem I see for making people craft manuals from scratch is that most such recipes are self-referential... In other words the recipe is only listed in the book you may or may not know you need to craft! For example, in TiCO volume 1 of "Materials and You" contains the recipe of 1 Paper Sheet + 1 Blank Pattern = Volume 1 of "Materials an You". While you can get the recipe for paper from NEI, assuming that NEI is included in the pack, is the recipe for a TiCO Blank Pattern? I can't remember, but I know it's in Volume 1 of "Materials and You". Catch-22 in action here... This doesn't take into account the new mod where you get the book by finding a semi-random dispenser when mining through stone or the Thaumlnomicon you can sometimes get by pillaging a village... and you have to have the thauminomicon to even get started in Thaumcraft.

Now multiply the problem by having a complete neophyte to modded Minecraft play their first pack...

 

[Hambeau]

I agree with the sentiment, but if a mod dev can get a book made in game, why not have it on the mod site/mcf thread. Im not arguing your point, just my preference. If a mod has so much content that it necessitates an in game manual, I'd rather get an easy to read option. I'm the type of person that would rather read the content at once and reference a legible copy than to constantly click through a pixelated book in game. Even with Thaumcraft, it takes too long to reference the aspect combination for say Auram just so you can go back and trigger the research you were after.

I'm not a fan of the information being solely in a pixelated in game book. I suppose if effort is going into documentation, I'd like an out of game option from the dev as well.

I've heard mods in streams say they'd rather write a PDF than edit a wiki because that way they control their own content and don't have to mess around with another website. The discussion even went so far as to discuss self-generating documentation generated from the code itself (listing new/changed features in a separate file to be fleshed out later), except they were too busy with mod upkeep to write the new code

 

[PierceSG]

I voted for guides that unlock as you progress because there isn't a voting option for ExtraUtilities style of guide by making use of the NEI.

 

[RedBoss]

I've heard mods in streams say they'd rather write a PDF than edit a wiki because that way they control their own content and don't have to mess around with another website. The discussion even went so far as to discuss self-generating documentation generated from the code itself (listing new/changed features in a separate file to be fleshed out later), except they were too busy with mod upkeep to write the new code

I'd definitely prefer that to a wiki.

 

[Eruantien]

Okay, step aside...
1) Botania has information on nearly every item it adds, with everything available from the beginning so that if you see something you want to craft, you can find out what it does without having to grind through lower-tier items just for an explanation. The only restriction on crafting anything is by how much mana you have and the amount of items you have available.
2) Thaumcraft. At the start, you have very few items available for crafting, and the progression is through a ton of research. Plus, the more powerful items are usually made with a bunch of resources anyway, so that means that in addition to stockpiling and crafting a lot of stuff, you have to do any research necessary first.
3) Witchery. Yes, there are some books, for basically each stage of your "tiered" progression, but not for a lot of the other stuff that you need/want in between. Hence the wiki. But, I don't think that's the best solution available for some, especially those (like me) who don't have a constant internet connection, or enough computer power to run a browser and minecraft at the same time.
4) HQM. First of all, the amount of information that you can put in it is virtually unlimited, but the nature of the mod means that it is written for a specific world with a scenario, right? Thus, not available for use outside of that one world. Unless it's possible to include documentation on mods out-of-the-box, it's not a very feasible way to be a "manual" of sorts.
I think that all the information on a mod should be made available offline in some way, either as a downloadable document or as an in-game book, or a whatever. This doesn't mean the death of wikis; all I'm saying is that the information should be made available to as many people in as many ways as possible. Wikis have the capability to post videos and maybe add a place for discussion, but for a clear, concise explanation, there should just be one file that has everything, I think.
Back to Thaumcraft; I do like the visual representation of progression. You know, the "track" of the paths through the thaumonomicon? Botania doesn't have this feature, quite as much, at least. My suggestion: something like "suggested reading" after an entry in an in-game book, that has a list of other entries that expand on or use said entry.

 

[Azzanine]

4) HQM. First of all, the amount of information that you can put in it is virtually unlimited, but the nature of the mod means that it is written for a specific world with a scenario, right? Thus, not available for use outside of that one world. Unless it's possible to include documentation on mods out-of-the-box, it's not a very feasible way to be a "manual" of sorts.
I think that all the information on a mod should be made available offline in some way, either as a downloadable document or as an in-game book, or a whatever. This doesn't mean the death of wikis; all I'm saying is that the information should be made available to as many people in as many ways as possible. Wikis have the capability to post videos and maybe add a place for discussion, but for a clear, concise explanation, there should just be one file that has everything, I think.
Back to Thaumcraft; I do like the visual representation of progression. You know, the "track" of the paths through the thaumonomicon? Botania doesn't have this feature, quite as much, at least. My suggestion: something like "suggested reading" after an entry in an in-game book, that has a list of other entries that expand on or use said entry.

The information in HQM is linked to the pack not the map. If you where to copy the HQM files from AS to monster you'd get the AS quests in monster. Of course some quests couldn't be done and an error might occur when it can't find half the items but once you sort that out you'd have AS quests in Monster.

 

[Eruantien]

The information in HQM is linked to the pack not the map. If you where to copy the HQM files from AS to monster you'd get the AS quests in monster. Of course some quests couldn't be done and an error might occur when it can't find half the items but once you sort that out you'd have AS quests in Monster.

Ah, I thought the quest files were saved in the world folder, not a different directory. Thanks.

 

[Hambeau]

4) HQM. First of all, the amount of information that you can put in it is virtually unlimited, but the nature of the mod means that it is written for a specific world with a scenario, right? Thus, not available for use outside of that one world. Unless it's possible to include documentation on mods out-of-the-box, it's not a very feasible way to be a "manual" of sorts.

My point is that if every complex mod had it's own HQM "tutorial" then all a pack creator would need to do is link each one to the pack "quest book". Ideally this would be in the form of separate volumes if that's possible in HQM...

For example, the pack quest book might lead you through whatever food related mod(s) are in the pack to help you establish a farm, including any pack specific HQM book tutorial(s) needed as rewards; other quests would help you establish power sources, then the next would help establish industrial basics, resource gathering, magic, etc.

Please keep in mind that the HQM books in this scenario have absolutely nothing to do with the environment but are intended as aids to (re)learning about the specific mods in the pack.

 

[Salamileg9]

I said guides that unlock as you progress, as that seems like it would be helpful to many people.

Though I personally usually learn mods by watching others play them. Other than Botania, for which I used the book.

 

[Cptqrk]

I see HQM being tossed around as a great way of learning/teaching a mod. While this may be true, the mod developers probably don't have enough time to make/upkeep their mods and make/upkeep a HQM book.
This would leave the HQM part to a third party, and while I suspect some folks are working on this (as mentioned many times in well intended "learn the mods" maps, most are vaporware, just like the "learn the mods" maps)
*sad face*

The thing is, some folks like to "learn" by looking at a mod and saying "I want (insert item here)" For example, when I first started Thaumcraft, I wanted the Wand Focus of Equal Trade. The book didn't show me how to make one right of the bat, so I just started researching... This was the best way (for me) to learn the mod because it made me play with the mod, in staggered progression, building things, making things, scanning things, learning how things interacted.

A wiki (in my experience) has been nothing but a headache, mostly good for looking up the usage of specific machines (as the "u" key doesn't show the uses for machines in NEI... hrmm.. wouldn't that be awesome? Press "u" on a pulverizer and it brings up the pulverizer recipies... where was I? Oh.. right) A lot of the info on the wiki pages is either outdated, or is showing wrong information (no offence to the wiki team here, I know it's gotta be a PITA to keep up).
So for the tl;dr crowd...

In game documentation, done right, is the best way to go IMO.

 

[Azzanine]

Ah, I thought the quest files were saved in the world folder, not a different directory. Thanks.

There's directories that relate to quest data in your player folder for tracking quests you've done but in the config folder there seems to be a quests.hqm file.
My guess is that's what you edit to get the base set of quests for the pack. You could theoretically make a new AS map in MCedit or Creative and do the AS quests on it.

 

[Yusunoha]

The Thaumonomicon is built into Thaumcraft as a core tome. Crafting it is part of the mod progression. Most other books are useless to me. I'd rather read a wiki than read a book inside Minecraft. The text is too blocky, sizes vary wildly, the navigation is horrible, and it clutters my inventory.

I remember testing a modpack once and I started the world with 5 books! That's just annoying. Granted I'm experienced but when I start a new world, I chuck away any books before I punch a tree. I hate them.

I'd prefer a wiki. I can alt-tab and read things formatted in a way that most computer users are familiar with. I dont have to flip 18 pages and lose the page if I look away. In game books are just a nuisance for the most part. We need wikis.

it'd be cool if there was a mod that'd add a bag like the spoils bag from Dartcraft. when you create a new world, or join a new server, you'll spawn with this bag
inside the bag are items that you can take out, but you can't put items back in.
the modpack developer or server owner can configure what items are in the bag and when you spawn only this bag will be in your inventory, so no other items like books and such from other mods

 

[Eruantien]

it'd be cool if there was a mod that'd add a bag like the spoils bag from Dartcraft. when you create a new world, or join a new server, you'll spawn with this bag
inside the bag are items that you can take out, but you can't put items back in.
the modpack developer or server owner can configure what items are in the bag and when you spawn only this bag will be in your inventory, so no other items like books and such from other mods

And this is different from starting with the items in your inventory... how?

There's directories that relate to quest data in your player folder for tracking quests you've done but in the config folder there seems to be a quests.hqm file.
My guess is that's what you edit to get the base set of quests for the pack. You could theoretically make a new AS map in MCedit or Creative and do the AS quests on it.

Got it, thanks. I stand/sit corrected.

Is there a way to export Bibliocraft Big Books? And would they only be usable by people playing with Bibliocraft? Because they have significantly more space then vanilla books, and a lot of formatting available.

 

[ratchet freak]

And this is different from starting with the items in your inventory... how?

in that all mod guides will be put into a single slot instead of filling your entire inventory

Got it, thanks. I stand/sit corrected.

Is there a way to export Bibliocraft Big Books? And would they only be usable by people playing with Bibliocraft? Because they have significantly more space then vanilla books, and a lot of formatting available.

 

[Eruantien]

in that all mod guides will be put into a single slot instead of filling your entire inventory

But then, you would eventually take them out, right? Maybe if Enchiridion was more widely known, that would help a bit here.

 

[Yusunoha]

But then, you would eventually take them out, right? Maybe if Enchiridion was more widely known, that would help a bit here.

instead of having all the books take a slot each, they're all combined into 1 slot, and you can take them out when you need them
most people probably already know the books and will know when they need them and will leave them in the bag till they exactly need them